Ban on Lake District Off Roading

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 Trangia 20 Nov 2019

Unesco advisors highly critical of Park Authority failing to ban off-roading vehicles and motorbikes

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/nov/19/lake-district-under-pressur...

I am in favour of such a ban. It shoudn't be too difficult to enforce? Legitimate users eg Residents of remote Homes, Farmers, Park Authorities, MR, Blue lights etc. could be licenced to use their vehicles., with one off licences for building contractors etc. It's Jo Public who need to be banned from off roading.

8
Rigid Raider 20 Nov 2019
In reply to Trangia:

I have driven my Land Rover 90 on the green lanes in the South Lakes, both solo and in the company of a couple of vehicles from Kankku. It's absolute nonsense that they disturb the peace; driving is usually with the engine on tickover or very low revs and vehicles very seldom pass through settlements, which are in any case on green lanes, therefore unsurfaced public roads. While stopping to open and close farm gates the driving code is to stop the engine. I will be disappointed if middle class NIMBYs win the day and the owners of the Kankku business will have to look elsewhere for an income.

However I would concede that a minority of offroaders do not behave with sensitivity and do rip up the countryside as many do have the macho idea of getting through at any cost, as 4x4 mangled routes like Mastiles Lane will show. Throw in a community of nervous and fearful retired folk, a touch of NIMBYism and plenty of time to compain and write letters and off roaders are facing the same general prejudice as mountain bikers did from walking groups in the 90s when they actually biked mountains and didn't just go round and round trail centres as they do nowadays.  

83
 Andy Johnson 20 Nov 2019
In reply to Trangia:

I find the attitude of the LDNPA hard to comprehend. That their website lists "Green Road driving" [1] alongside walking, cycling, and painting as things for visitors to do, tells me everything I need to know. Commerce before landscape conservation.

[1] https://www.lakedistrict.gov.uk/visiting/things-to-do/green_roads

3
Rigid Raider 20 Nov 2019
In reply to Andy Johnson:

That looks pretty unequivocal to me.

A mechanism exists for locals to get nuisance vehicles banned - all they need to do is telephone the Police and a Section 59 Warning can be served on the owner for using a motor vehicle in a manner, which causes annoyance, alarm or distress, or some such wording. We have used it on habitual speeders in our street and it is quite effective.

pasbury 20 Nov 2019
In reply to Andy Johnson:

> I find the attitude of the LDNPA hard to comprehend. That their website lists "Green Road driving" [1] alongside walking, cycling, and painting as things for visitors to do, tells me everything I need to know. Commerce before landscape conservation.

That is pretty weird. I think really we need a change in the law regarding BOATs and all the other so-called driveable rights of way.

2
 Simon Caldwell 20 Nov 2019
In reply to the thread:

I don't like off-roading, but feel uneasy when climbers try to get other people banned from the outdoors because we don't like their chosen leisure activity. Many of the arguments used could easily be used by others to campaign for a ban on climbing.

7
 graeme jackson 20 Nov 2019
In reply to Rigid Raider:

> I have driven my Land Rover 90 on the green lanes in the South Lakes, ...

Took my landy across the Iron Keld road from Hawkshead to Coniston in October. We met, stopped and chatted with, a number of walkers and a cycling group, none of whom expressed any displeasure at our being there.  Aside from the pleasure I got from trundling over an unmade road, it's the only way my better half can get into the countryside nowadays.

12
 DR 20 Nov 2019
In reply to Rigid Raider:

You're mixing with the wrong crowd if you think Kankku is a model company. They have ignored the voluntary restrictions in place in the Lakes for the last 15 years, have ignored TRO's and therefore broken the law - and that is why many folk want to close these routes to all vehicles.

Aye,

Davie

2
Rigid Raider 20 Nov 2019
In reply to graeme jackson:

Er, well, yes, I didn't mention that on one trip I took along my late sister who was ill with MS but loved being out in the countryside.

Road cyclists are facing the same NIMBYism in popular places like the New Forest, where lots of elderly folk live in peaceful retirement. I know for myself the effect of loud voices in the street because for two years we were bothered by a neighbour's teenager daughter and her friends gathering outside at night to squeal, scream, shout and mess around with boys, which attracted the attention of a local drug dealer. 

12
Rigid Raider 20 Nov 2019
In reply to DR:

> You're mixing with the wrong crowd if you think Kankku is a model company. They have ignored the voluntary restrictions in place in the Lakes for the last 15 years, have ignored TRO's and therefore broken the law - and that is why many folk want to close these routes to all vehicles.

Kannku or drivers hiring their liveried vehicles?

14
OP Trangia 20 Nov 2019
In reply to Rigid Raider:

Why is it NIMBYism for elderly folk to want to live in peaceful retirement? Or have I misunderstood your post?

2
Lusk 20 Nov 2019
In reply to Trangia:

He's lost me, from road cyclists to drug dealers in two sentences!

2
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

> I don't like off-roading, but feel uneasy when climbers try to get other people banned from the outdoors because we don't like their chosen leisure activity. Many of the arguments used could easily be used by others to campaign for a ban on climbing.

I think there is a distinction to be made though. Outdoors, for me, is by definition being outside, engaging in a physical endeavour. That endeavour is on a scale; not everyone needs to run over the moors, climb E5, and I'm not sniffy about people finding their own thing while walking only a few hundred metres. 

Off-roading by 4x4 or trail motorbike isn't of those things that I think about what being outside is. I'm sure it can be an effort to push the bike or sort out a tow, but it really isn't the same thing.

I get that there is a skill to it (I used to love that show on TV with Peter Purves (sp) and the motorbikes) but there needs to be dedicated areas that aren't the old green lanes (for the passage of horse and cart). 

Post edited at 14:57
OP Trangia 20 Nov 2019
In reply to Rigid Raider:

> However I would concede that a minority of offroaders do not behave with sensitivity and do rip up the countryside as many do have the macho idea of getting through at any cost, as 4x4 mangled routes like Mastiles Lane will show. 

And therein lies the problem. I do know what I am talking about because in the past I owned a Series ll, a Series lll, two 90s and two Discos, not all together I hasten to add ! I used to go off roading on Byways long before BOATS were introduced, and I am ashamed to admit that I had a similar attitude to you. There is no doubt that our use of Byways did antagonise walkers, and locals. I believe our off road club was one of the better behaved, and we did try to minimise the impact, and I belonged to a club that used to donate a lot of time and effort into maintaining the trails and filling in ruts etc. but gradually I began to realise that fun though it was, off roading on public ways is not really compatible with other countryside uses like walking, running, mountain biking, and riding, particularly in our crowded little island where with the increased popularity of outdoor sports, the pressure on remoteness is increasingly under threat.   4x4s and trials bikes are mechanical things which make a noise, produce fumes, often completely fill a lane. They are the total antithesis of the outdoor culture. I stopped "green lane driving" over 20 years ago and switched attending meets in a dedicated quarry and woodland off roading course on private land well away from habitation, footpaths and other rights of way where the impact on others was minimal to non existent.

1
In reply to Trangia:

> And therein lies the problem. I do know what I am talking about because in the past I owned a Series ll, a Series lll, two 90s and two Discos, not all together I hasten to add ! I used to go off roading on Byways long before BOATS were introduced, and I am ashamed to admit that I had a similar attitude to you. There is no doubt that our use of Byways did antagonise walkers, and locals. I believe our off road club was one of the better behaved, and we did try to minimise the impact, and I belonged to a club that used to donate a lot of time and effort into maintaining the trails and filling in ruts etc. but gradually I began to realise that fun though it was, off roading on public ways is not really compatible with other countryside uses like walking, running, mountain biking, and riding, particularly in our crowded little island where with the increased popularity of outdoor sports, the pressure on remoteness is increasingly under threat.   4x4s and trials bikes are mechanical things which make a noise, produce fumes, often completely fill a lane. They are the total antithesis of the outdoor culture. I stopped "green lane driving" over 20 years ago and switched attending meets in a dedicated quarry and woodland off roading course on private land well away from habitation, footpaths and other rights of way where the impact on others was minimal to non existent.

Your use of compatibility struck a chord. I want peace and quiet when I'm out. 

 Henry Iddon 20 Nov 2019
In reply to Trangia:

The point is surely that it is a 'National Park' and therefore for everyone.

No one complains about the dreadful eyesore that is stone armoured paths created by Fck the Fells.... oh hang on they're for the benefit of fell walkers so that's alright then.

Thank you that is all.

45
 toad 20 Nov 2019
In reply to DR:

Yeah, I've had an unfortunate encounter with kaanku. I didn't ask to see their rental agreement, just the logo plastered over the van. 

 Escher 20 Nov 2019
In reply to Trangia:

Question from the uninitiated. Is it normal to offroad in large convoys? I once was descending The Fox in Grizedale Forest on my MTB and met 15-20 off road vehicles coming up the other way. It seemed excessive but perhaps there is less disruption done in large groups rather than in ones and twos? 

 Simon Caldwell 20 Nov 2019
In reply to Henry Iddon:

> No one complains about the dreadful eyesore that is stone armoured paths created by Fck the Fells

Some of us do

1
 Simon Caldwell 20 Nov 2019
In reply to Escher:

In my experience, large convoys are self-creating as the one at the front slows drastically whenever they get to a tricky bit allowing those following to catch up

 Simon Caldwell 20 Nov 2019
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

> I want peace and quiet when I'm out

That's the sort of thing I was referring to. Not much peace and quiet ion a busy day at Stanage with hundreds of climbers shouting "safe! have you got me! fuuuuuuuuk!". Plenty of people would use this as a reason to stop people climbing.

PS I'm always saddened whenever there's a thread here about the latest rave/all-night party in a quarry and most replies are saying there's nothing wrong with it.

6
 Escher 20 Nov 2019
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Do you mean that it is likely they were from different groups? The reason I ask is I've ridden the green lanes around that area loads of times and encountered 4 x 4's three times, the group I mentioned, another large group including several Kannku vehicles near Tilberthwaite and a Landy on it's own somewhere else so it was quite a surprise to see upwards of 15 all at once.

 gravy 20 Nov 2019
In reply to Escher:

My experience is that packs of off-roaders are somewhat more badly behaved and intimidating than lone drivers (most of which have some legit business being there other than tearing the place up for the fun of it).

People getting there under their own steam without aid first

People getting there with various forms of aid (horse, bike etc) in between

People getting there with 2 tonnes of mechanical beast tearing up the place last

And as far as wild places goes (including BOATs) the line to be drawn lies between self/animal powered and those using external sources of power (ie cars and motorbikes).

There is no need to confuse "4x4 hobby drivers" with residents, farmers, MR, utilities etc who all have legit access and no one has a problem with.

Anyone driving around in a 4x4 like this saying that the pedestrians were all fine about it is full of shit.

4
 DancingOnRock 20 Nov 2019
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Climbers in large numbers are pretty much restricted to hot spots where you find large numbers, if you want peace and quiet find another hill, there are plenty, even quiet ones where climbers are climbing quietly. Are 4x4s, or trail bikes? I was up in the White Peak miles from anywhere when 3 bikers appeared from nowhere making a racket. No number plates, completely unidentifiable, travelling well in excess of a safe speed. 
Same with cyclists in Pelotons, all over the country, they come racing up behind you, pass at close speed all shouting at each other. 
Unless there’s a fell race, or up the side of Snowdon (in which case these places can be avoided) new stone paths may be an eyesore for a year or so but they are at least silent. 

Post edited at 16:14
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 mbh 20 Nov 2019
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

> > I want peace and quiet when I'm out

> That's the sort of thing I was referring to. Not much peace and quiet ion a busy day at Stanage with hundreds of climbers shouting "safe! have you got me! fuuuuuuuuk!". Plenty of people would use this as a reason to stop people climbing.

You don't have to be too far away before all those noises shrink to nothing. Engine noises travel much further. The peace of many an alpine peak I have been on was disturbed by the sound of the motorcycles on the main roads far below and far away.

1
 summo 20 Nov 2019
In reply to gravy:

> There is no need to confuse "4x4 hobby drivers" with residents, farmers, MR, utilities etc who all have legit access and no one has a problem with.

They also cause a problem for the above legitimate users, excessive traffic, poor driving and so on causes rapid erosion of tracks and causes them to wash out in heavy rain, making them unusable to farmers, mrts etc.  

These lanes should just all be locked and run on a master key or multiple pad lock system. 

The problem exists because of a rights of way system design in the era of the horse and cart, the farmer driving stock over the mountain pass to market etc. There needs to be a national review, not just in the parks; so it also encompasses access for mountain bikes etc. 

1
 Simon Caldwell 20 Nov 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> Climbers in large numbers are pretty much restricted to hot spots where you find large numbers, if you want peace and quiet find another hill

And off-roaders are even more restricted, to BOATs and other rights of way that they can legally use.

Some ignore the rules of course, the same as in any group, but those who ignore existing restrictions aren't going to be much affected by any new ones that are introduced.

In reply to Trangia:

Live and let live. 

There are many predictable responses above. It doesn't take a great stretch of the imagination to predict a vocal campaign group objecting to shout jangly climbers painting the rocks white every dry spell. 

Late 80s,early 90s there was a big furore about mountain bikes when they first became popular. 

6
 Shaw Brown 20 Nov 2019
In reply to Trangia:

I’m sure someone on here will know the ratio of footpath to BOAT mileage as l don’t, however I am sure that road legal trail is an incredibly small fraction of public rights of way. I think the park do a reasonably good job of keeping a balance for all, in fact they have closed a lot of BOATs over the years so can’t be accused of favouritism. I’m an ex off road rider from over 30 years ago and seen many BOATs downgraded, in the same time I’ve seen an explosion in the number of walkers who all clog up the valleys in their cars.  A bit of compromise seems reasonable, stopping walkers parking on Walna scar car park in lieu of putting a TRO on the rest of the road (done many years ago) for example.  Even better,  just give the off road fraternity a bit of leeway, they have a pretty limited amount of miles they can use. Ps The only off road driving I’ve done for the last 20 years has been getting to various crags in Spain, something many of us have done on this forum.

2
In reply to Trangia:

As that great French alpinist Jean Paul Satre once said

 "L'enfer, c'est les autres" 

Lusk 20 Nov 2019
 bouldery bits 20 Nov 2019
In reply to Lusk:

Effort

 bouldery bits 20 Nov 2019
In reply to Shaw Brown:

> A bit of compromise seems reasonable, stopping walkers parking on Walna scar car park in lieu of putting a TRO on the rest of the road (done many years ago) for example. 

This really really winds me up.

Nothing wrong with parking at the top of Walna scar road. Nothing at all. One of the few places you could park for free in that part of the Lakes. Stripping that away from us is an attack on our aboriginal rights and tantamount to cultural genocide. 

Give me my free parking or give me death!!!!

 birdie num num 21 Nov 2019
In reply to Henry Iddon:

> No one complains about the dreadful eyesore that is stone armoured paths created by Fck the Fells.... oh hang on they're for the benefit of fell walkers so that's alright then.

I don’t think that they’re for the benefit of fell walkers at all. They’re a necessary response to erosion caused by the popularity of fell walking.

Folk can to and fro over the meaning of ‘National’ in the term ‘National Park’ but I doubt that the pioneers of the idea had 4x4 off-roading in mind. Nevertheless, it’s catered for.

 Simon Caldwell 21 Nov 2019
In reply to birdie num num:

> I doubt that the pioneers of the idea had 4x4 off-roading in mind.

A lot of people in the early days of motoring used to drive all over the place in the Lake District. Ashley Abrahams even wrote a couple of books about it, and both he and his brother were among those campaigning for a motor road to be built over Esk Hause.

1
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

> > I want peace and quiet when I'm out

> That's the sort of thing I was referring to. Not much peace and quiet ion a busy day at Stanage with hundreds of climbers shouting "safe! have you got me! fuuuuuuuuk!".

I appreciate your opinion, though when I'm at popular places like Stanage (I'm 15 mins away) and not climbing, I don't really recognise what you're describing. Maybe I'm tuned out. 

> Plenty of people would use this as a reason to stop people climbing.

Again I'm not sure about that. Intrigue and inquisitive is usually what springs to mind. 

> PS I'm always saddened whenever there's a thread here about the latest rave/all-night party in a quarry and most replies are saying there's nothing wrong with it.

1
 summo 21 Nov 2019
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

> A lot of people in the early days of motoring used to drive all over the place in the Lake District. Ashley Abrahams even wrote a couple of books about it, and both he and his brother were among those campaigning for a motor road to be built over Esk Hause.

A plane landed on helvellyn once, doesn't mean it should now be an airport. LDI lake district international? 

1
 Simon Caldwell 21 Nov 2019
In reply to summo:

I know, I was just adding what I thought was interesting information

 Duncan Bourne 21 Nov 2019
In reply to Rigid Raider:

I no real qualms about 4x4's on green lanes per say. Farmers need to get to fields and the odd vehicle is not a problem. I have slightly more of a problem with motorbikes due to excessive noise but on the whole noise isn't the issue.

What becomes an issue is the state of the roads due to such traffic making them hard to navigate and the fact that all users share a single space. On narrow lanes it can be hard to get out of the way of a fleet of 4x4's and a line of motorbikes

 ChrisJD 21 Nov 2019
In reply to Henry Iddon:

> stone armoured paths

And from figures 'off the net' (...may not be true...), these a'int cheap:

£160 per metre, or £250,000 per mile

(nice mixture of units)

 DR 21 Nov 2019
In reply to Rigid Raider:

The owner.

 fred99 21 Nov 2019
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

> > I doubt that the pioneers of the idea had 4x4 off-roading in mind.

> A lot of people in the early days of motoring used to drive all over the place in the Lake District. Ashley Abrahams even wrote a couple of books about it, and both he and his brother were among those campaigning for a motor road to be built over Esk Hause.

I have no doubt, but they didn't drive Range Rovers, LandRover Safaris or LandCruisers, all of which weigh 2 tons or more, with considerably more power to each and every wheel.

2
 DR 21 Nov 2019
In reply to Trangia:

> And therein lies the problem. I do know what I am talking about because in the past I owned a Series ll, a Series lll, two 90s and two Discos, not all together I hasten to add ! I used to go off roading on Byways long before BOATS were introduced, and I am ashamed to admit that I had a similar attitude to you.

Boats and Byways are the same thing - Byways Open to All Traffic. The percentage of BOATS in the LDNP compared to footpaths and bridleways is something like 4% of the network. Problem is that the Tilberthwaite route in question here is not a BOAT - it is an unclassified county road. Same status as Wrynose and Hardknott Pass - just that it has never been tarmacked. Some UCRs were also footpaths and bridleways with Walna Scar, Garburn Pass and the Park Head Road being the most used and well known - which is where the conflict came in from a legal perspective - but the NERC Act 2006 closed all these and only left BOATs and UCRs. So 4x4 and trail bike use mushroomed on a much smaller resource and companies like Kankku are out there pretty much every day. Something has to give...

Aye

Davie

 DR 21 Nov 2019
In reply to Escher:

> Question from the uninitiated. Is it normal to offroad in large convoys? I once was descending The Fox in Grizedale Forest on my MTB and met 15-20 off road vehicles coming up the other way. It seemed excessive but perhaps there is less disruption done in large groups rather than in ones and twos? 


There is nothing legal to stop such large convoys but there has been a voluntary agreement in the Park for over 20 years that 4x4s should be in groups of no more than 4 and trail bikes in groups of 6. Many people comply with it but others don't.

 Simon Caldwell 21 Nov 2019
In reply to fred99:

I know sod all about cars, but the sort of vintage cars that drove over the Lake District passes certainly appear pretty heavy!

 DR 21 Nov 2019
In reply to bouldery bits:

> This really really winds me up.

> Nothing wrong with parking at the top of Walna scar road. Nothing at all. One of the few places you could park for free in that part of the Lakes. Stripping that away from us is an attack on our aboriginal rights and tantamount to cultural genocide. 

> Give me my free parking or give me death!!!!

You have no legal right to park beyond the fell gate on the Coniston side of Walna Scar. Once through the gate you are on a bridleway and therefore use by motor vehicles is not allowed. You are allowed to park up to 15 metres off a highway without landowner permission but there is no right to do this. So any car parked more that 15 metres away from the gate is doing so unlawfully. Obviously people have been parking up there for decades and because it has been tolerated by Rydal Estates as landowner, there is complicit landowner approval. And this is without the pay and display car park proposal - I've no idea where that is at..?

Aye

Davie

 Andy Johnson 16 Dec 2019
In reply to Trangia:

Lake District campaign plans legal action over off-road vehicles  -  https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/dec/16/lake-district-campaign-plan...

Green Lanes Environmental Action Movement (Gleam) is going to go for judicial review using a crowdfunding campaign.

 Bulls Crack 16 Dec 2019
In reply to Trangia:

Off-roaders on byways without traffic regulation orders  are legitimate users

1
 MG 16 Dec 2019
In reply to Bulls Crack:

Currently. The proposal is to change that. 

 Dax H 16 Dec 2019
In reply to MG:

Just like climbers are legitimate users, maybe that should be banned too. The levels of erosion at the bottom of popular crags is insane. 

11
 Andy Johnson 17 Dec 2019
In reply to Dax H:

> Just like climbers are legitimate users, maybe that should be banned too. The levels of erosion at the bottom of popular crags is insane. 

Nobody is proposing to do that.

1
 Sir Chasm 17 Dec 2019
In reply to Dax H:

> Just like climbers are legitimate users, maybe that should be banned too. The levels of erosion at the bottom of popular crags is insane. 

How "insane" would the erosion be if we all drove to the base of the crag? 

1
 Jon Greengrass 17 Dec 2019
In reply to Andy Johnson:

The government is " We will make intentional trespass a criminal offence"

1
 Simon Caldwell 17 Dec 2019
In reply to Jon Greengrass:

That's in a section about illegal traveller encampments. 

1
 Jon Greengrass 17 Dec 2019
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

What is an illegal traveller?

1
 Simon Caldwell 17 Dec 2019
In reply to Jon Greengrass:

or for pedants:

That's in a section about illegal traveller-encampments. 

1
 graeme jackson 17 Dec 2019
In reply to Sir Chasm:

> How "insane" would the erosion be if we all drove to the base of the crag? 


Is anyone suggesting they drive to the bottom of a crag? There's loads of scarring across the countryside from walkers boots. Perhaps they should be the ones being persecuted?  

5
 Tom Valentine 17 Dec 2019
In reply to Jon Greengrass:

Someone you don't want calling a temporary halt to his journey in your back garden / local supermarket car park/ school playing field.

 Sir Chasm 17 Dec 2019
In reply to graeme jackson:

> Is anyone suggesting they drive to the bottom of a crag? There's loads of scarring across the countryside from walkers boots. Perhaps they should be the ones being persecuted?  

You've got some pretty aggressive tread on your boots if you cause as much erosion as a 4x4 or trail bike.

1
 graeme jackson 17 Dec 2019
In reply to Sir Chasm:

> You've got some pretty aggressive tread on your boots if you cause as much erosion as a 4x4 or trail bike.

A google earth satellite image of the lakes shows horrendous erosion on nearly all the popular walking routes around the lakes with a lot of the paths in boggy areas getting wider all the time. 

6
 Sir Chasm 17 Dec 2019
In reply to graeme jackson:

> A google earth satellite image of the lakes shows horrendous erosion on nearly all the popular walking routes around the lakes with a lot of the paths in boggy areas getting wider all the time. 

You're claiming a walker causes as much erosion as a 4x4? Well, it's an opinion.

3
 La benya 17 Dec 2019
In reply to Trangia:

Is there a legal reason for me to move out of Greenlaners’ way when they come up behind me?

3
 graeme jackson 17 Dec 2019
In reply to Sir Chasm:

  • > You're claiming a walker causes as much erosion as a 4x4? Well, it's an opinion.

    Where did I claim that?

4
 Sir Chasm 17 Dec 2019
In reply to graeme jackson:

So what are you claiming? It's fine for 4x4s to rip the crap out of the countryside because walkers?

2
 Dax H 17 Dec 2019
In reply to Sir Chasm:

> You've got some pretty aggressive tread on your boots if you cause as much erosion as a 4x4 or trail bike.

How many walkers per 4x4 use the trails each week? I'm all for regulating motor vehicle use but they already are by way of the very limited "roads" they can use. 

Walkers en mass cause massive amounts of erosion just as climbers do at the base of popular crags. 

If we are so worried about erosion then motor vehicles, horses, bikes and people need banning from un metalled roads and tracks. The majority of the 4x4 crowd are responsible trail users but a minority spoil it just like the majority of walkers are responsible people but a minority leave the marked trails and widen the paths and drop litter and crap. 

Punish the dick heads not everyone. 

10
 MG 17 Dec 2019
In reply to Dax H:

> Just like climbers are legitimate users, maybe that should be banned too. The levels of erosion at the bottom of popular crags is insane. 

Except of course it isn't except in very exception locations.  This is the whole point - some activities are basically sustainable, and some aren't.  It is reasonable to manage or even ban those that aren't.

1
 Dax H 17 Dec 2019
In reply to MG:

> Except of course it isn't except in very exception locations.  This is the whole point - some activities are basically sustainable, and some aren't.  It is reasonable to manage or even ban those that aren't.

Just like 4x4 damage is restricted to certain areas. There is plenty of room to live and let live. 

4
 meggies 17 Dec 2019
In reply to Dax H:

Less erosion now than in the 1980's/early 1990's 

 graeme jackson 17 Dec 2019
In reply to Sir 

> So what are you claiming? It's fine for 4x4s to rip the crap out of the countryside because walkers?

Nope.  I'm not claiming anything.  On the other hand you're asking how bad erosion would be if we all drove to the crag? Unless there's a public road open to motor vehicles we can't do that so any erosion has been caused by walkers. Same with the scars seen all over the fells

4
 cander 18 Dec 2019
In reply to graeme jackson:

Actually I've always thought the popular highly eroded paths should be fenced, and the fences moved periodically to allow the eroded path to be repaired, reseeded and rested. Additionally I'd discourage visitors from taking cars down Borrowdale, Langdale etc and provide regular free shuttle buses to allow everyone to access the valleys without all the congestion. Paid for by Car Parking fees and congestion charge. Residents and workers excluded from the fees.

 Sir Chasm 18 Dec 2019
In reply to Dax H:

> How many walkers per 4x4 use the trails each week? I'm all for regulating motor vehicle use but they already are by way of the very limited "roads" they can use. 

A bit more regulating wont go amiss.

> Walkers en mass cause massive amounts of erosion just as climbers do at the base of popular crags. 

So what? If you're in a 4x4 it's ok to cause as much damage as 10 walkers? 50? 100? What makes them so special?

> If we are so worried about erosion then motor vehicles, horses, bikes and people need banning from un metalled roads and tracks. The majority of the 4x4 crowd are responsible trail users but a minority spoil it just like the majority of walkers are responsible people but a minority leave the marked trails and widen the paths and drop litter and crap. 

I don't believe the majority are responsible, but I accept that's your opinion.

> Punish the dick heads not everyone. 

Ask a farmer nicely, I'm sure some would be happy to have some income from 4x4s.

1
 stevieb 18 Dec 2019
In reply to Sir Chasm:

> So what? If you're in a 4x4 it's ok to cause as much damage as 10 walkers? 50? 100? What makes them so special?

I think you are massively underestimating the differential.

On well made roads, a 40 tonne truck causes 100 000 times the damage of a 1 tonne car. On weak structures, the differential is exponentially worse than this.

The differential between 1 walker (80kg) and 1 4x4 (2000kg) is on a similar scale.

 GrahamD 18 Dec 2019
In reply to graeme jackson:

Its worth reviewing the 'purpose' of the National parks and, in particular, the 'special qualities' of the Lake district.  Walking and climbing are specifically included in that list - driving tractors about for fun isn't:

https://nationalparks.uk/students/whatisanationalpark/specialqualities/spec...

1
 Simon Caldwell 18 Dec 2019
In reply to cander:

> Actually I've always thought the popular highly eroded paths should be fenced, and the fences moved periodically to allow the eroded path to be repaired, reseeded and rested. 

They do this on Grisedale Pike (or at least they used to)

In reply to Trangia:

I agree with every word you say, esp. '4x4s and trials bikes are mechanical things with make a noise, produce fumes, and often completely fill a lane. They are the total antithesis of the outdoor culture.' Though not quite as bad as speedboats on Lake Windermere, it is surely a similar case, and that was successfully banned after quite a few years campaigning. 

2
In reply to Trangia:

This is a no-brainer. It’s extraordinary that it hasn’t already been done.

jcm

2
 Dax H 18 Dec 2019
In reply to Sir Chasm:

> So what? If you're in a 4x4 it's ok to cause as much damage as 10 walkers? 50? 100? What makes them so special?

4x4's are not special. Can I ask you what is special about walkers because you seem to think they are fine to cause damage. 

I maintain my stance that there is room for everyone. 

In case you were wondering I owned a 4x4 for a couple of years, never bothered with green laning though it didn't interest me. I much preferred pay and play days at a local quarry where you could push man and machine to the limits (normally beyond with the amount of time mine spent on its roof. 

 Bulls Crack 18 Dec 2019
In reply to MG:

That is GLEAM's main aim generally. I'm not an off-roading fan but GLEAM are...how shall I put this...fundamentalist  in nature 

 Sir Chasm 19 Dec 2019
In reply to Dax H:

> 4x4's are not special. Can I ask you what is special about walkers because you seem to think they are fine to cause damage. 

Great, we've agreed that neither walkers nor 4x4s are special! So I'll put aside my other prejudices about off-roaders and accept they shouldn't be barred from routes as long as each one causes no more damage as each walker. That's fair isn't it?

> I maintain my stance that there is room for everyone. 

And I'll maintain my stance that you're wrong.

> In case you were wondering I owned a 4x4 for a couple of years, never bothered with green laning though it didn't interest me. I much preferred pay and play days at a local quarry where you could push man and machine to the limits (normally beyond with the amount of time mine spent on its roof. 

That's what I suggested above.

1
 Dax H 19 Dec 2019
In reply to Sir Chasm:

> Great, we've agreed that neither walkers nor 4x4s are special! So I'll put aside my other prejudices about off-roaders and accept they shouldn't be barred from routes as long as each one causes no more damage as each walker. That's fair isn't it?

No, if we are concentrating on damage then everything should be zero impact, 4x4s do large damage in small numbers on a tiny % of trails, walkers do small damage in large numbers on a large amount of trails, why is one different to the other. 

> And I'll maintain my stance that you're wrong.

Opinions are like arse holes. 

> That's what I suggested above.

Yes you did and that's fine for those who enjoy it, others enjoy getting out and seeing new places, you could get exactly the same exercise walking circuits round the local park, would that be fun for you? 

3
 Sir Chasm 19 Dec 2019
In reply to Dax H:

> No, if we are concentrating on damage then everything should be zero impact, 4x4s do large damage in small numbers on a tiny % of trails, walkers do small damage in large numbers on a large amount of trails, why is one different to the other. 

Yes. You think an off-roader should be allowed to cause more damage than a walker. I disagree.

> Opinions are like arse holes. 

As demonstrated.

> Yes you did and that's fine for those who enjoy it, others enjoy getting out and seeing new places, you could get exactly the same exercise walking circuits round the local park, would that be fun for you? 

Any other people enjoy getting off road without the use of an engine. And I'll worry about the parks if it happens.

1
 ChrisJD 19 Dec 2019
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> I agree with every word you say, esp. '4x4s and trials bikes are mechanical things with make a noise, produce fumes, and often completely fill a lane. They are the total antithesis of the outdoor culture.' 

Following that logic, cars should be banned from the Lakes, or at the very least, all the high mountain roads and passes such as Hardknott & Kirkstone.

There are National Parks in the USA and many in Europe (parts of at least) where cars are now banned.

4
 wintertree 19 Dec 2019
In reply to Dax H:

>  4x4s do large damage in small numbers on a tiny % of trails, walkers do small damage in large numbers on a large amount of trails, why is one different to the other. 

It all depends on what imaginary accounting model you run with – what is the damage charged against? It seems fair to me that it is charged against the benefit of the activity to a person doing it per person per day rather than charging it against a class of activity.  It may be that the damage from vehicles is comparable to the damage from people, but the benefit derived by walkers is far higher given their greater number – assuming that 4x4ing isn’t 1000s of times more fun.

I strongly think that dedicated 4x4 ranges are a much better idea than access to the fells. It may be possible to put some of those ranges in shared use forest – I suspect they will pose far less danger to other users than the downhill mountain biking which runs very successfully and safely in many FC locations.   

1
 Dax H 19 Dec 2019
In reply to wintertree:

My main point is I don't like the idea of banning things because some people don't like it. I believe it's a slippery slope that will ultimately curtail everyone's enjoyment. 

1
 wintertree 19 Dec 2019
In reply to Dax H:

> My main point is I don't like the idea of banning things because some people don't like it. I believe it's a slippery slope that will ultimately curtail everyone's enjoyment. 

That’s a point I’m much more sympathetic to.  But imagine if lots of currently banned things become allowed.  That’d be unsustainable.   Things can and should change.  Less good is when you have change driven by two highly opposed sets of vocal minority groups which both the 4x4 drivers and to a lesser degree the walkers are.

 john_mx 19 Dec 2019

I use the lanes in the lake 1-2 weekends a month and we use local hotel and local restaurants and there is normally 8-10 of us if they close the lanes  just think of the revenue lost..

I know some people do abuse them but what about the one’s who give money towards the conservation of the road because at the end of they day they are just as much of a road as the M62 l there roads not paths,

get out and riding the lanes help me massively with my anxiety and depression just in the same way climbing dose and I don’t see why we should be deprived of this joy!

Post edited at 20:09
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