UKH

Hi.

Not sure how this works in Scotland. Are there access organisations or rights of way officers? I'm use to just walking. Never had an issue before.

Yesterday evening I parked up near Glenrath farm by Manor Waters, planning on going up Dun Rig for a camp. 

As I was walking towards the farm (think large prosperous farm) a man (with two collies) came towards me. Not a coincidence I think as, after speaking with me, he returned to the farm. He says he's a recent employee and tells me there's no way through past the farm to Dun Rig, after I told him of my plans, suggesting instead I start further up the road. 

The Google maps screenshot shows the road and the blue dot the location of our meeting. The blue line the route through/by the farm 

Now, in looking online I see that to be untrue. That annoys me. I kinda figured I was being 'misinformed', never having had any such issues in 15 yrs of walking, but did not wish to have an argument at the start of my walk.

I did get to Dun Rig but it cost me time, added distance and meant I missed out on the glen walk.

In reply to Flinticus:

You want the borders access officer. This’ll be on the council website too

https://www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot/doc/scottish-access-officer-contact...

And your path is on the councils map https://www.scotborders.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/1170/broughton_east_co...

Personally I’d have gone up from the Peebles side but nothing stopping you doing that approach.

In reply to Mike-W-99:

Thank. Peebles route too long for a work morning.

In reply to Mike-W-99:

Interesting to see that specific path marked on that download. Now even more annoyed! 😆

Have emailed the access officer.

Thanks

In reply to Flinticus:

It would be interesting to hear of your experience of what the access officer does.
Are you likely to ever walk that path again, would you know if the situation improves.
Landowners seem to get away with quite outrageous behaviour because people just get fed up with trying.

In reply to Godwin:

I experienced a similar issue to the OP only a couple of weeks ago in Gwynedd, at the southern end of Snowdonia National Park; footpath clearly marked on OS 1:25,000 as a Public Right of Way (PRoW) passing a cottage before connecting with a public highway, access from the field to the side of the cottage fenced off, chap in the garden waved us over and stated “there’s no public footpath here” and told us we’d have to go back the way we’d just walked! I tried to reason with him the path was shown as a PRoW on my map, he clearly wasn’t interested and just said “there has never been a public footpath here”. Admittedly, we’d noted the complete absence of any way-marking for the last half of a mile or so up to this point. I didn’t want to argue, though he then directed us across the field to a gate onto the road.
Back home, I checked on the Local Authority (LA) website which confirmed the section of path in question is indeed a PRoW. I submitted a report of this incident to the LA, though have yet to receive a response… 😕

In reply to Forester3:

Always possible someone removed the signs and way markers 

In reply to Dax H:

'someone'...

In reply to Dax H:

Yes, highly likely, as we found that otherwise, the way-marking in this area to be pretty good…

In reply to Forester3:

The abuse of peoples Rights of Way is so widespread and the PROW officers so thin on the ground, that they cannot keep up. May I suggest you also report this to the Ramblers.

If you are approached whilst out walking and unsure of your position, you could try googling "PROW + the county you are in" and this may bring up the definitive map with your location.

Having said that, you are out for a walk and a relax, not a fight. These landowners are not nice people.

 

In reply to captain paranoia:

Without proof I didn't want to go accusing what could be an innocent farmer, it might just be that local yobs thought it would be funny to remove the way markers just around this farm to get him in to trouble. 

In reply to Dax H:

Now who could possibly be the thief ?

It would be interesting if the authorities found the signs and way markers on someone's property - and then took them to court for actual theft.

In reply to Godwin:

No response yet.

Will chase up in a week or so.

In reply to Flinticus:

Sorry to hear about this. I was up these hills from Glenrath 10+ years ago, no issues then.

I don't tend to get too many interactions with landowners and estate staff these days, but when I did, I always tended to be vague about what my destination might be, especially if they seemed inordinately interested in what I was up to. Harder for them to dissuade a moving target... Exception to that was/is stalking season, seems natural for them to ask then and I was maybe lucky in always finding them pretty reasonable in discussing route.

I'll bet wherever you were fobbed off to led to some horrendous going? There's a track right up to the ridge line from Glenrath...

In reply to Flinticus:

I would like to think this was a case of an employee not understanding access laws in Scotland. Interestingly during a recent callout on the other side of Dun Rig it was suggested by locals that some were happy the track you would probably follow is not shown on the map. Thus reduced numbers in the area.  

Ironically there was a large cross country cycling event traversed the same track earlier this week so I would assume the land owners would have been informed (I may be wrong but you do not have to ask permission. Someone will clarify I'm sure). 

As mentioned below I would pursue this with the local access officers. In my experience they have been very helpful with access issues during lock down. 

Glad you managed to get a high camp in  

In reply to Flinticus:

If it’s as I heard, some councils stopped and subsequently cut back on access issues from the start of the pandemic.

I’m still waiting for my local access dept to reply to an email of Nov 20. When I contacted them in 21 I got the response to the effect that (at that time at least) all work had stopped; I got nowhere and nothing has been heard from them since.

Previous cases in my LA area could I was aware take years to be dealt with and some fell into the “never” category sadly.

The access restricted I reported in Nov 20 (from full, open to all, including wheelchairs, buggies, bikes, horses, etc., to only walkers through a small awkward kissing gate) is still restricted. The evidence of the the previously open (unrestricted for in excess of 24 years) “bypass” is long gone and being fenced is now severely overgrown.

As someone mentioned, it could be a good idea to notify the likes of The Ramblers if your council is not responding.

In reply to Godwin: Thanks, however, in this instance I suspect the chap who stopped us wasn’t the owner of the fields we’d just crossed, rather, someone who just doesn’t want people walking past his house!

In reply to Flinticus:

I thought in Scotland you could pretty much just walk anywhere?

In reply to guffers_hump:

You pretty much can with some exceptions. So long as its done responsibly. 

In reply to Forester3:

This is the problem, he is there all the time, and he will spot PROW officers, and play nice.
I would politely ask their name and their authority, and under no circumstances give mine. If they refused my request for information, I would proceed. 
If they persisted I would film them, as blocking a Right of Way is a Criminal Offence.
We only have access to about 8%,of the land in England and Wales, so they are not stopping me accessing the little I have.

In reply to Godwin:

I’ve just submitted a report to the Ramblers, though it seems they simply forward reports to the relevant Local Authority, it’ll be interesting to see if anything happens….

In reply to Forester3:

Excellent. Do not expect the PROW mobile to go, with Blue Lights flashing though. 
The way it works is that if the PROW and Ramblers get a few reports, they know there is an issue, not just a one off, and then they will prioritise it.
It is a War not a Battle.

If others from UKH could walk the path, that would help. Community action, is the way ahead.

In reply to Godwin:

The OP said this was Scotland.

It's worth noting you can't walk through peoples gardens. Possibly the farmyard could be considered as such?

In reply to MG:

I was replying to Forrester who was in Gwynedd.

You can walk through peoples Gardens on a PROW, though if I understood correctly, the person Forrester was approached by, objected to them walking past his land, not over it, which is even worse than "Get Orf my Land".

 

In reply to MG:

Farmyards are not no go areas in Scotland; there are many routes (formally approved routes at that) that go through them. Care has to be taken and at times it is not unreasonable to expect some temporary restrictions for H&S reasons.

All farms with routes through farmyards I’ve used in recent times have no problem with the setup and are careful to assist with access through when they can. 

Last case I was stopped and told that I was not allowed to use a route through a “farmyard” was with a horse unit. It took the LA some two years to have the matter settled. It was always a right of way and formally approved on plans, but a newer occupier did their best to prevent use. Gate locked, painted in anti climb paint, side slip opening blocked with 8ft high fences, etc.

Mostly, ime in Scotland there are very little problems if users are reasonable in all aspects of access. There are of course some well known farms/estates that will always have problems one way or other whether a RofW or general access rights are involved.

In reply to MG:

The core paths map shows the track that the OP should have been following skirting round the edge of the farm.  This matches the track shown (albeit not particularly clearly) on the OS 1:25,000 map.  However, the OS Map doesn't show three bloody great buildings on the south side of the farm, which the core path passes between.  Those are clearly visible on Google Maps satellite view, with the track passing between them: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.5912185,-3.2569199,411m/data=!3m1!1e3

I rather wonder whether those buildings were erected after the route was designated a core path, and the farm owners don't want people in that area now.  I'd have thought that, if that were the case, then the planning permission for the buildings would have specified the core path access should be retained, or an appropriate alternative route provided.

If the buildings pre-dated the designation of the core path then the farm owners should have been informed as part of the consultation process (see below) and would have had their chance to object at that time.

For those not familiar with the Scottish access regulations and what core paths are this is from the Scottish Outdoor Access Code web site https://www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot/act-and-access-code/core-paths-plan...:

A Core Paths Plan must be drawn up by each access authority, to establish a system or network of paths 'giving the public reasonable access throughout their area' (section 17 of the Act). Core paths help people to exercise their access rights with confidence, and help to harmonise access and land management operations. The core paths network will provide for all types of users, and may include routes on inland water for paddlers and other water users.

The core paths planning process involved extensive consultations, and included any objections being formally considered through local inquiries where necessary, before each plan was finalised and adopted.

This is what the Scottish Outdoor Access Code says about farmyards (from the same source as the above):

Although access rights do not extend to farmyards, many people take access through farmyards when following paths and tracks.

In practice:

if a right of way or core path goes through a farmyard, you can follow this at any time

if a reasonable, passable alternative route is signposted around the farmyard and buildings, then you should follow this.

In the absence of a right of way, core path or reasonable, signposted route around the farmyard and buildings, you:

might be able to go through the farmyard if the farmer is content or if access has been taken on a customary basis in the past; or you

could exercise your access rights to go around the farmyard and buildings.

If you do go through a farmyard, proceed safely and carefully, watch out for machinery or livestock, and respect the privacy of those living on the farm.

In simple terms, then, so long as the OP was following the route of the core path through the farm, the farm gadgie was simply wrong.  He did tell the OP that he had started there recently so (a) may not have been aware of the core path and/or (b) may even have been from outwith Scotland and was unaware of Scottish access rights.  Either way, the most straightforward course of action after the event would seem to be to raise the issue with the local authority access officer, who can 'have a word' with the farm owner.

In reply to Gavin Kellett:

One of those exceptions is if an area is deemed (by the landowner) to be a garden. An increasingly used loophole to bar public access.

I used to regularly walk up a local Glen and return via the hill tops. This is now not possible because landowner has suddenly decided that this Glen now has a 'garden' spanning the access track, prohibiting access to the public.

In reply to Martin W:

Very useful info, thanks.

Ultimately I did not want an argument, especially if our dogs picked up on any tension and with his two off lead, that could get ugly / territorial. I also considered the possibility that the glen may have held cattle (there was cattle in adjoining and nearby fields) and I could force a way through the farm only to confront a route leading through a field of cattle!

In reply to MG:

I was once told by an estate worker that the grouse moor estate track I was cycling along was the landowners garden and how would I like it if he came and cycled through my garden after dark. I said he'd be welcome too but it would be a very short ride.