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Rescue incident in the Southern Cairngorms a few days ago; male out winter walking from Linn of Dee; his wife is back in Braemar following his progress as he has a Spot Messenger. She gets position updates on her screen every 10 minutes and an "I'm OK" message every 45 mins (assuming he is). His position does not move from Ben Macdui for 3h so she calls for mountain rescue. NB the "I need help" button or whatever it is had not been activated. In ensuing conversation it is clear that dropping the unit or a malfunction are not an option she will consider. Husband found walking down Glen Derry slightly later than anticipated but perfectly OK and oblivious to the rescue team and helicopter now involved in looking for him. Is it just me or...and wait until PRBs become more common.
In reply to MalcolmMac:
I had to google WTF spot messenger was. Turns out it's more 'stuff' we don't really need peddled by cynical marketing types.
In your cited rescue perhaps if the chap had had it in his rucksack instead of (presumably) worn like a badge on his shoulder strap no shout would have gone out.
I had to google WTF spot messenger was. Turns out it's more 'stuff' we don't really need peddled by cynical marketing types.
In your cited rescue perhaps if the chap had had it in his rucksack instead of (presumably) worn like a badge on his shoulder strap no shout would have gone out.
In reply to Craig Mc: It wouldn't have made any difference. He still had the unit which to him was working fine i.e. he pressed the button every 45 mins to transmit that he was fine. It was his wife who did the phoning as on her screen it appeared as though he hadn't moved. I agree completely with your second sentence.
In reply to MalcolmMac:
If I follow you correctly he was still transmitting but she didn't receive the pings? It's a bollox system if it requires you to hit a button every 45 mins - means I would have to buy a watch if I ever wanted to use one.
I suppose at least she gave it 3 hours before calling mrt.
Where did you hear of this?
If I follow you correctly he was still transmitting but she didn't receive the pings? It's a bollox system if it requires you to hit a button every 45 mins - means I would have to buy a watch if I ever wanted to use one.
I suppose at least she gave it 3 hours before calling mrt.
Where did you hear of this?
In reply to Anonymous:
Good for you mystery person. It's just more tech that needs power and can feck up IMO.
How long would it take rescuers to get to you if you are on remote trips?
Good for you mystery person. It's just more tech that needs power and can feck up IMO.
How long would it take rescuers to get to you if you are on remote trips?
In reply to Anonymous: I'm sure they have their place and there do seem to be many satisfied customers; but I wouldn't call it "a great piece of equipment" given that it gave a false position for over 3 hours and generated an un-necssary rescue response.
In reply to Craig Mc: He was still transmitting, presumably, but she either didn't get the pings or her software didn't refresh the information. Either way it's a waste of money. You would have to buy a watch; or the lack of response would lead someone to believe you were in trouble. I'm in the MR team involved in this incident.
In reply to Anonymous: it's the reliance on a single piece of technology with no real two way communications that concerns me. Combined with a Sat phone you have the ability to discuss an issue with someone; but you're right, they are v expensive. The case I'm talking about is a real concern as clearly something was not working correctly. It would be interesting to find out exactly what the issue was as I am sure there are other users out there who would like to know. And you will never know if it working OK until either something like this happens and a rescue team arrive unexpectedly; or they are required but the message never got through. In the marine world apparently 90% of PLB activations are false/unintentional/faults; but virtually all users are also immediately available on VHF so it is not the same issue as land based use in the mountains or remote areas. I know SPOT is not the same as PLBs but the issues are similar. MR teams have to live with this as a responder organisation but working with non regulated emergent technologies is a burden as much as any perceived benefit may be to the user.
In reply to MalcolmMac:
Interesting blog on this from a couple of years back: http://www.wildsnow.com/2323/plb-rescue-beacon-acr/
I particularly liked the story of the guy who thought it was an avalanche transponder so triggered a SAR callout with it every time he was out skiing...
But, from what you said initially, in your case the SPOT was never used to actually send an "Emergency" message - the wife just panicked when she thought he'd stopped. A SPOT could appear to stop 'moving' for any number of trivial reasons - dead battery, broken, fell off pack, poor radio signal conditions, walker having a nap, you name it...
Interesting blog on this from a couple of years back: http://www.wildsnow.com/2323/plb-rescue-beacon-acr/
I particularly liked the story of the guy who thought it was an avalanche transponder so triggered a SAR callout with it every time he was out skiing...
But, from what you said initially, in your case the SPOT was never used to actually send an "Emergency" message - the wife just panicked when she thought he'd stopped. A SPOT could appear to stop 'moving' for any number of trivial reasons - dead battery, broken, fell off pack, poor radio signal conditions, walker having a nap, you name it...
In reply to MalcolmMac:
Only time I was nearby one of these things when used, the scenario went like...
1 Youngster kealed over in remote location in poor conditions, no mobile signal, no SW radio coverage.
2 Those trying to help walked to higher location to attempt to make contact, no luck, so pressed emergency button on SPOT device. Signal was received and "emergency" of unknown scale type or urgency was logged.
3 As device gives no certain feedback senders werent sure that signal was sent so walked back to location of casualty and en route pressed the button again. This "emergency of unknown...etc...etc was logged about 1k from the first.
So two "rescues" to be organised....maybe...which was possible as an organised walk of 100+ people was nearby, or was it one rescue, but which location? Did the system help the youngster in this case, I'm not sure!
> (In reply to Anonymous) MR teams have to live with this as a responder organisation but working with non regulated emergent technologies is a burden as much as any perceived benefit may be to the user.
Only time I was nearby one of these things when used, the scenario went like...
1 Youngster kealed over in remote location in poor conditions, no mobile signal, no SW radio coverage.
2 Those trying to help walked to higher location to attempt to make contact, no luck, so pressed emergency button on SPOT device. Signal was received and "emergency" of unknown scale type or urgency was logged.
3 As device gives no certain feedback senders werent sure that signal was sent so walked back to location of casualty and en route pressed the button again. This "emergency of unknown...etc...etc was logged about 1k from the first.
So two "rescues" to be organised....maybe...which was possible as an organised walk of 100+ people was nearby, or was it one rescue, but which location? Did the system help the youngster in this case, I'm not sure!
In reply to Wainers44:
SPOT and PLBs send a serial number as part of the emergency message, so it should be obvious its the same device.
> So two "rescues" to be organised?
SPOT and PLBs send a serial number as part of the emergency message, so it should be obvious its the same device.
In reply to roddyp:
You assume that the user couldnt be reporting 2 incidents. 100+ people in the immediate vicinty. Unlikely to be seperate, but not impossible. I have no links to MRT so cant say how they would view it, for me it seems a big call to dismiss one...oh, and which one, they are 1k apart and not within view of each other?
> (In reply to Wainers44)
>
> [...]
>
> SPOT and PLBs send a serial number as part of the emergency message, so it should be obvious its the same device.
>
> [...]
>
> SPOT and PLBs send a serial number as part of the emergency message, so it should be obvious its the same device.
You assume that the user couldnt be reporting 2 incidents. 100+ people in the immediate vicinty. Unlikely to be seperate, but not impossible. I have no links to MRT so cant say how they would view it, for me it seems a big call to dismiss one...oh, and which one, they are 1k apart and not within view of each other?
In reply to Wainers44:
Well, it's probably irrelevant because with any kind of PLB-triggered callout the team would have no idea what they were responding to until they got there. One guy with a twisted ankle, or 100+ walkers on an 'organized walk' all in various degrees of hypothermia... They have no choice but to put troops on the hill to find out. I can't see that a second message from the same beacon would change their response.
> You assume that the user couldnt be reporting 2 incidents
Well, it's probably irrelevant because with any kind of PLB-triggered callout the team would have no idea what they were responding to until they got there. One guy with a twisted ankle, or 100+ walkers on an 'organized walk' all in various degrees of hypothermia... They have no choice but to put troops on the hill to find out. I can't see that a second message from the same beacon would change their response.
In reply to Wainers44:
If you get two calls from the same device presumably you respond to the location of the second call because the device is held by the person who reported the problem and that is their last known location.
> .oh, and which one, they are 1k apart and not within view of each other?
If you get two calls from the same device presumably you respond to the location of the second call because the device is held by the person who reported the problem and that is their last known location.
In reply to MalcolmMac:
I would suggest that if the wife needs an OK signal every 45 minutes the husband either needs a different hobby or a new wife
I would suggest that if the wife needs an OK signal every 45 minutes the husband either needs a different hobby or a new wife
In reply to balmybaldwin:
Definitely a change in protocol is required. Instead of "if you don't hear from me every 45 mins assume I'm dead" it should be "I'll press the emergency button if I'm in trouble, otherwise I'm probably fine. If you don't hear from me by ETA + 1 hour, then start to worry. Here's my planned route". Just like responsible people have been doing for ever, only with added possiblity of quicker emergency response if needed.
Definitely a change in protocol is required. Instead of "if you don't hear from me every 45 mins assume I'm dead" it should be "I'll press the emergency button if I'm in trouble, otherwise I'm probably fine. If you don't hear from me by ETA + 1 hour, then start to worry. Here's my planned route". Just like responsible people have been doing for ever, only with added possiblity of quicker emergency response if needed.
In reply to Wainers44:
This doesn't add up, a SPOT will tell you if the last message was sent correctly, and whether a GPS location was included in the message. Also a message is sent every 5 minutes once the button is pressed so GEOS must be used to multiple signals, I don't understand why they told you it was two incidents.
> As device gives no certain feedback senders werent sure that signal was sent so walked back to location of casualty and en route pressed the button again. This "emergency of unknown...etc...etc was logged about 1k from the first.
This doesn't add up, a SPOT will tell you if the last message was sent correctly, and whether a GPS location was included in the message. Also a message is sent every 5 minutes once the button is pressed so GEOS must be used to multiple signals, I don't understand why they told you it was two incidents.
In reply to MalcolmMac:
Some kids that I work with are issued with SPOTS. I've found that there are often delays in receiving messages which can in some cases take days to arrive! As a result these safety devices become unreliable and therefore dangerous which is highlighted in the real life case which you have highlighted.
Some kids that I work with are issued with SPOTS. I've found that there are often delays in receiving messages which can in some cases take days to arrive! As a result these safety devices become unreliable and therefore dangerous which is highlighted in the real life case which you have highlighted.
In reply to jfmchivall:
Good comment.
This topic reminds me of when, many years ago, I was doing an advanced flying course which involved the ability to fly on instruments in an emergency and the use of electronic navigation aids.
My instructor reminded me that it was always important to remember that navigational aids can and do fail and that you should never disregard or forget basic navigational skills.
Likewise we should always retain the skills to do our best to avoid situations where we have to use things like PLBs.
> (In reply to balmybaldwin)
>
> Definitely a change in protocol is required. Instead of "if you don't hear from me every 45 mins assume I'm dead" it should be "I'll press the emergency button if I'm in trouble, otherwise I'm probably fine. If you don't hear from me by ETA + 1 hour, then start to worry. Here's my planned route". Just like responsible people have been doing for ever, only with added possiblity of quicker emergency response if needed.
>
> Definitely a change in protocol is required. Instead of "if you don't hear from me every 45 mins assume I'm dead" it should be "I'll press the emergency button if I'm in trouble, otherwise I'm probably fine. If you don't hear from me by ETA + 1 hour, then start to worry. Here's my planned route". Just like responsible people have been doing for ever, only with added possiblity of quicker emergency response if needed.
Good comment.
This topic reminds me of when, many years ago, I was doing an advanced flying course which involved the ability to fly on instruments in an emergency and the use of electronic navigation aids.
My instructor reminded me that it was always important to remember that navigational aids can and do fail and that you should never disregard or forget basic navigational skills.
Likewise we should always retain the skills to do our best to avoid situations where we have to use things like PLBs.
In reply to Jimmy56: Dont know. Like I said I was not part of the official rescue effort. I heard afterwards that the device was not felt to be of help.
Unless pressing the button results in a flash of trembling light and the user re-materialising in the transporter room at the nearest MRT they are just another gadget which could be great, but have their limitations so should be expected to fail. Beam me up MRT....
Unless pressing the button results in a flash of trembling light and the user re-materialising in the transporter room at the nearest MRT they are just another gadget which could be great, but have their limitations so should be expected to fail. Beam me up MRT....
In reply to Wainers44:
Much like maps, compasses and my knees, then.
I think there are two issues really:
a: "relying on a PLB". I don't think that concept makes any sense. PLBs are emergency gear that could increase your chance of speedy rescue if everything goes pearshaped in a remote location. If everything goes to hell in a handcart, then the PLB is just another tool at your disposal, much like a survival bag,first aid kit and that nasty serrated blade on your swiss army knife. If it's appropriate, you use it. If it's bust, you're no worse off than not having it.
b: "False positives" There are probably enough unnecessary callouts already, and SPOT and PLB devices aren't going to improve things. Education of users, responders (and, it seems, user's wives) should help reduce these. PLBs are now 'legal' for onshore use, and I'd hope that the manufacturers would do free training sessions for rescue teams to keep them up to speed with how these devices operate.
> ..just another gadget which could be great, but have their limitations so should be expected to fail.
Much like maps, compasses and my knees, then.
I think there are two issues really:
a: "relying on a PLB". I don't think that concept makes any sense. PLBs are emergency gear that could increase your chance of speedy rescue if everything goes pearshaped in a remote location. If everything goes to hell in a handcart, then the PLB is just another tool at your disposal, much like a survival bag,first aid kit and that nasty serrated blade on your swiss army knife. If it's appropriate, you use it. If it's bust, you're no worse off than not having it.
b: "False positives" There are probably enough unnecessary callouts already, and SPOT and PLB devices aren't going to improve things. Education of users, responders (and, it seems, user's wives) should help reduce these. PLBs are now 'legal' for onshore use, and I'd hope that the manufacturers would do free training sessions for rescue teams to keep them up to speed with how these devices operate.
In reply to roddyp: My knees too!
Totally agree with your comments, but would just add that the "user" needs to be suitably experienced to understand that it may/could fail and what that would mean. For example in the case of kids being given this sort of kit without the means to know what to do when it doesnt operate...or even worse, a remote "leader" who wrongly bases their emergency planning too heavily on this kits proper operation. Well anyway, I know what I mean!!
Totally agree with your comments, but would just add that the "user" needs to be suitably experienced to understand that it may/could fail and what that would mean. For example in the case of kids being given this sort of kit without the means to know what to do when it doesnt operate...or even worse, a remote "leader" who wrongly bases their emergency planning too heavily on this kits proper operation. Well anyway, I know what I mean!!
In reply to MalcolmMac: These systems are becoming more and more popular. With 406Mhz PLBs becoming legal for overland use, we will definatley see ourselves being tasked tot more and more of these incidents.... I was on 137 for that search... It'll be one of many....
Being someone who has used a SPOT in a remote location my personal opinion is that they can be a valuable piece of kit if used correctly and the user knows it's limitations.
I'm going to throw in a scenario I had. We missed/couldn't find our exit spot on a River in Canada after 8 days of wilderness canoeing due to beaver dams, tree fall etc which meant that we had to spend an extra unplanned night in the bush.
We had a prearranged pickup at a set location and no mobile phone signal. We got an OK message through using a SPOT device. The information updated the canoe outfitters that we were alive including our grid reference for our unplanned camp on the river. Using those details they were then able to work out the most likely exit point and sent a van to wait there on the chance that we would exit at that location the next day.
If it wasn't for us getting the OK message through, a full blown search and rescue operation was likely.
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