scrambling grades why they shouldn’t be a thing

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So scrambling grades are such a big problem because some grade 2 routes are easier than grade 1 routes etc main gully is a grade 1 and is harder than some grade 2s and pinnacle ridge st Sunday crag (grade 3 ) is easier than y Garn east ridge imo don’t get me wrong most grade 3s are harder than most grade 2s but the problem is people rely to much on grades like say a person who hasnt went up a mountian goes up tryfan because it’s a grade 1 so they think it’s easy then let’s say they go up the north tower wrong that could be very dangerous cuz u can easily accidentally make tryfan a grade 2 imo beginners should go up Crib Goch instead it’s way easier but anyway I digress personally I think the grade system isn’t detailed enough in I think there should be stuff like for a easy grade 1 like seniors gully ,Gordale Scar they should be grade 1c stuff like medium grade 1s like crib lem ,Crib Goch ,bristly ridge should be grade 1b then the hard grade 1s like milestone gully main gully tryfan north ridge etc should be 1a and then the same thing with grade 2s and 3s but this is my opinion wondering what u guys think 

71
 jezb1 16 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

They’ve worked just fine for years and don’t need breaking down any further.

1
 bouldery bits 16 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Experiences > Grades.

In reply to jezb1:

Imo they do

31
 marsbar 16 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

I don't want to sound mean, but it is very difficult to read your post.

If you put line breaks in it after each point it would be easier.  

The white space helps the eyes.  

1
 Stichtplate 16 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

See also: Climbing grades and every review of everything, ever.

 Trangia 16 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Grammar and punctuation, and why they should be a thing.

It makes it easier to read a polemic........

Post edited at 19:19
 Myfyr Tomos 16 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

There's a route in Morocco called "Inaccurate Punctuation". I wonder what grade that is?

 profitofdoom 16 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

> So scrambling grades are such a big problem because some grade 2 routes are easier than grade 1 routes etc main gully is a grade 1 and is harder than some grade 2s and pinnacle ridge st Sunday crag (grade 3 ) is easier than y Garn east ridge imo don’t get me wrong most grade 3s are harder than most grade 2s but the problem is people rely to much on grades like say a person who hasnt went up a mountian goes up tryfan because it’s a grade 1 so they think it’s easy then let’s say they go up the north tower wrong that could be very dangerous cuz u can easily accidentally make tryfan a grade 2 imo beginners should go up Crib Goch instead it’s way easier but anyway I digress personally I think the grade system isn’t detailed enough in I think there should be stuff like for a easy grade 1 like seniors gully ,Gordale Scar they should be grade 1c stuff like medium grade 1s like crib lem ,Crib Goch ,bristly ridge should be grade 1b then the hard grade 1s like milestone gully main gully tryfan north ridge etc should be 1a and then the same thing with grade 2s and 3s but this is my opinion wondering what u guys think 

Scrambling? I don't want to unscramble your post

1
 Groundhog 16 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

As marsbar says your post is very difficult to read.

 Please try to use punctuation and paragraphs if you want people to take you seriously. 

However I think I am wasting my time.....

3
 OwenM 16 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

It's scrambling i.e. harder than walking up hill. Easier than rock climbing. What more detail do you need?

 jezb1 16 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

> Imo they do

But how many scrambles have you done? That’s not meant to sound belittling, but scrambles are about adventures and that’s all part of the experience.

1
 Matt Podd 16 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Just get on enjoying the outdoors and gaining experience, and stop spraying it all over UKC.

2
 Lankyman 16 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

> So scrambling grades are such a big problem because some grade 2 routes are easier than grade 1 routes etc main gully is a grade 1 and is harder than some grade 2s and pinnacle ridge st Sunday crag (grade 3 ) is easier than y Garn east ridge imo don’t get me wrong most grade 3s are harder than most grade 2s but the problem is people rely to much on grades like say a person who hasnt went up a mountian goes up tryfan because it’s a grade 1 so they think it’s easy then let’s say they go up the north tower wrong that could be very dangerous cuz u can easily accidentally make tryfan a grade 2 imo beginners should go up Crib Goch instead it’s way easier but anyway I digress personally I think the grade system isn’t detailed enough in I think there should be stuff like for a easy grade 1 like seniors gully ,Gordale Scar they should be grade 1c stuff like medium grade 1s like crib lem ,Crib Goch ,bristly ridge should be grade 1b then the hard grade 1s like milestone gully main gully tryfan north ridge etc should be 1a and then the same thing with grade 2s and 3s but this is my opinion wondering what u guys think 


You started your sentence with 'So'.

4
 flatlandrich 16 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Remember the grade is just a rough guide. If you read up on a route before you do it you'll find out a lot more detail that normally gives the reason why a route is given a certain grade and often says if it's easy or hard for that grade.

A route graded III but might be 95% grade II or even I but have a difficult 'bad step' that pushes the grade up.

Routes might feel easier or harder to you depending on a lot of different factors. Doing Crib Goch on your own, on a cold, wet and windy day will feel a lot more difficult than doing a grade III with your mates on a sunny afternoon. Gullies might feel easier than ridges if you're not totally happy with the exposure.

Arguing about grades/grading is a favourite pastime for many climbers – welcome to the club!!

 Robert Durran 16 Aug 2020
In reply to OwenM:

> It's scrambling i.e. harder than walking up hill. Easier than rock climbing. 

Scrambling is rock climbing. It's amply covered by the grades Easy and Moderate. Scrambling grades as such should never have been a thing.

Post edited at 19:54
4
 Tom Valentine 16 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

You've made a good start with your list of suggested subdivisions for various scrambles.

If you added to it and organised it by region it might prove a really good discussion point and people might chip in with their own suggestions. If you included everything you've done in this type of activity it might also help convince some doubters that you are a genuine poster and not a troll.

I disagree entirely with the notion that your scrambling posts should be addressed instead to UkH : once you have to resort to using your hands as well as legs it becomes climbing, in my view,

1
 John Ww 16 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

What do I think? I think people are tolerating you at best at the moment, and giving you the benefit of the doubt because of your (alleged) age. However, if you continue to post from a position of almost complete ignorance, you might find that patience is not infinite.

4
 ianstevens 16 Aug 2020
In reply to marsbar:

> I don't want to sound mean, but it is very difficult to read your post.

Could say it’s a 1c scramble 

> If you put line breaks in it after each point it would be easier.  

Big ask, I’d like some full stops first 

 PaulJepson 16 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Have you tried caving? They probably have a forum too. 

1
In reply to John Ww:

Don’t worry I’ve requested for my acount to be deleted cuz I’m making my self look like a tw*t I wish this website would let u delete forums 

2
 marsbar 16 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

I'm sorry if I've upset you.  I was trying to make it more readable. 

 Pedro50 16 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

That's sad, come back with a different user name sometime. 

I'm not being sarcastic. 

Post edited at 20:40
1
In reply to Pedro50:

Ye like this site can’t do a simple thing of making u delete forums after 30 minutes because some forums I made made me look dumb and now everyone thinks I’m a troll when I’m really not mountains are what keep me alive I used to be suicidal and mountains helpt me so its a bit shit when everyone thinks you’re a troll or a dick head just cuz I said some dumb stuff 

10
 Tom Valentine 16 Aug 2020
In reply to Pedro50:

Better yet, come back under your real name

Post edited at 20:39
5
In reply to Tom Valentine:

I want to keep my name covered for privacy reasons

3
 Pedro50 16 Aug 2020
In reply to Tom Valentine:

> Better yet, come back under your real name

Sorry Tom V?

 Kalna_kaza 16 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

YoU mIgHt As WeLl WrItE lIkE tHiS. I'm no punctuation police officer but your post is unreadable. 

8
 John Ww 16 Aug 2020
In reply to Kalna_kaza:

Actually, that's really easy to read   

gezebo 16 Aug 2020
In reply to Tom Valentine:

I thought it was an interesting idea too. 

If sport climbers can have a grade 6a, 6b etc why not a scramble?

I think Terry Story did something similar to what this chap is trying to suggest but with Kayaking. He graded everything with a number which denoted the overall technical difficulty and a letter denoting the seriousness of getting it wrong. 
 

In fairness to Mr Anoch he may have a not so unreasonable suggestion. 

5
 kaiser 16 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

> Don’t worry I’ve requested for my acount to be deleted 

ok bye

9
 GrahamD 16 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

I agree that over dependency on scrambling and climbing grades can lead people into difficulty, but I don't think that's the fault of the grades.  It's more a the consequence of inexperienced people in an uncontrolled environment. 

1
 Tom Valentine 16 Aug 2020
In reply to Pedro50:

V is an abbreviation for Valentine, not an attempt to hide my identity. But I take your point

Post edited at 23:00
 Billhook 17 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

It would help me believe in you more if you answered my question  in another of your posts regarding how you manage to travel around.  

At 14 travel cannot be easy and a parent surely doesn't have the time to take you to all the places  you've been.

1
In reply to Billhook:

I said before my dad takes me and sometimes I get a taxi 

1
 Martyn Maltby 17 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

On the UKC site, go to the Logbooks section and click on 'Crag Map.

On the 'Search by Climbing Type' dropdown box, select 'Scrambling'.

Type in a crag name, or area or postcode, and click 'Search'.

You should find a list of crags with scrambles. Select one, and then look down the list for a scrabmble. 

Select the scramble route, and there you will see a voting section, which subdivides each of the three scrambling grades into 3 sub-divisions; high, mid and low. These should give you a fairly good idea of what the consensus is about the route in question.

 peppermill 17 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

I think it's quite tricky to grade scrambles as it's basically steep bit of a scary walk, steeper and a bit scarier and so forth. Some people will be using hands all the time, others will be mooching along with their hands in their pockets for most of the route. 

I think scrambling is way more fun if you don't overthink "Moves" too much and bash on with it.

Post edited at 09:59
 C Witter 17 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Doesn't the scrambling grading system go something like the below?

Scottish (mountaineering adventure)
Welsh (quality daytrip)
Lakes (scrappy... excepting a few gems)
Peak (strictly for the LOLz)

 

 profitofdoom 17 Aug 2020
In reply to marsbar:

> I don't want to sound mean, but it is very difficult to read your post.

> If you put line breaks in it after each point it would be easier.  

> The white space helps the eyes.  

BUT it is crystal clear that the OP was carefully and deliberately written that way, that is, to be very hard to read, and annoying 

Let no-one be in any doubt about that 

Far, far too much time has already been wasted by UKC readers on the many threads by this poster 

4
 Tom Valentine 17 Aug 2020
In reply to profitofdoom:

I 'm not sure I would  want you on the jury if I was on trial for a serious offence.

Especially if I was innocent..............             

 profitofdoom 17 Aug 2020
In reply to Tom Valentine:

> I 'm not sure I would  want you on the jury if I was on trial for a serious offence.

> Especially if I was innocent..............             

Yes, no doubt, and I see your point of course 

Let me add that I know exactly what I was talking about regarding the OP's language in my post 20 minutes ago. I have a Ph.D, and decades of experience, in languages, communication, discourse, and language analysis 

4
 bouldery bits 17 Aug 2020
In reply to profitofdoom:

I am very impressed! A top troll.

In reply to profitofdoom:

Bruh I ent been school for ages give me a break lmao

13
 Paul Sagar 17 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Surely this is a troll? Not a bad one, either. Plenty of bites.

In reply to Paul Sagar:

I am not a troll 😤

5
Removed User 17 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Dont forget the sub division of the grades re wet or dry or heaven forbid ice/snow

 SimonCRMC 17 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

> some forums I made made me look dumb and now everyone thinks I’m a troll when I’m really not mountains are what keep me alive I used to be suicidal and mountains helpt me so its a bit shit when everyone thinks you’re a troll or a dick head just cuz I said some dumb stuff 

Hi All

If this is a troll then claiming to have been suicidal takes it to a new level.  If it's not - and we've had plenty of articles and posts on the relationship between climbing and mental health - then maybe we need to cut AEITB a bit of slack.

Simon

1
 bouldery bits 17 Aug 2020
In reply to profitofdoom:

> Yes, no doubt, and I see your point of course 

> Let me add that I know exactly what I was talking about regarding the OP's language in my post 20 minutes ago. I have a Ph.D, and decades of experience, in languages, communication, discourse, and language analysis 

And yet, no full stops.

:P

 John Ww 17 Aug 2020
In reply to bouldery bits:

What, not even one?

 Lankyman 17 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

> Bruh I ent been school for ages give me a break lmao


What? In 4 months you've forgotten basic English? I haven't been to school in over 40 years and yet I can still throw a proper sentence together. Cut the fake jive talk, get another profile and have another go. I must admit you're quite amusing.

Anyway, how'd you get on at Gordale and Pinnacle Ridge this weekend? Weather was great. Love to see the pics.

 timjones 17 Aug 2020
In reply to profitofdoom:

As an expert in " languages, communication, discourse, and language analysis", how would you judge someone who only bothers to use full stops when flashing their degree around?

2
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

> sometimes I get a taxi

It costs me about £6 to get the couple of km from town to home. I hate to think how much it would cost to get to a remote hill...

You must be very successful at your rapping.

 C Witter 17 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Everyone should give AEITB a break. You don't know who they are and there's no need to give them a hard time. If you don't like the thread, you can just move on.

4
 John Ww 17 Aug 2020
In reply to captain paranoia

> You must be very successful at your rapping.

Is that "rapping" with a silent "C"?

3
 Paul Sagar 17 Aug 2020

In reply to Aonach eagach is the best:

Hey dude, sorry for the above - read your post quickly and I got the wrong end of the stick.

Glad you're loving getting out into the mountains. I'm about to return to some easy short walking in the Lake District and Scotland, after breaking my leg in May. I wish I could go scrambling right now!

Best of luck with your explorations.

In reply to C Witter:

Yes but I may need to edit that 

scottish (the best ridge walks and ridge scrambles )

Wales ( the best scrambles in 1 area aka Ogwen valley )

lake District ( mostly walks but a few decent to good scrambles ec pinnacle ridge ,jacks rake ,cam crag ridge ,threading the needle,

peak District ( a few nice waterfall scrambles and some nice climbs )

yorkshire ( for the lolz)

2
 Tom Valentine 17 Aug 2020

In reply to Aonach eagach is the best:

I was one of your more sympathetic respondents.

Until you came out with "could of".

Post edited at 14:19
2
 Lankyman 17 Aug 2020

In reply to Aonach eagach is the best:

> Ok if I’m being honest I’m just lazy and cba to write a whole sa and check for punctuation 

Thanks for being honest and admitting it. There are lots of crusties (like me) on here who can't stand reading the type of stuff you've pumped out on several threads. Take the effort to communicate properly with more thought and maturity and you'll get taken seriously.

> but thanks for asking  about Gordale Scar and pinnacle ridge 

> so Gordale Scar was a nice walk and the little scramble was quite nice and easy

I first went there when I was 11 or 12, thought it was stunning and still do and I've been to a lot more places since. By the way, Gordale is probably the least interesting scramble in the Dales, despite being ina very impressive spot. There are far better scrambles there, some of which are reasonably well known like Cray Gill and Strans Gill in upper Wharfedale. There are lots of others but I'm not spilling the beans. Part of the enjoyment of these places is looking on a map and going out to explore. Hint: limestone produces the best features so look for a stream on the map that runs down a limestone hillside. The Dales also have numerous caves which I got into in a big way as a teenager. That is a totally different world with far more potential for adventure in the true sense of the word.

> and pinnacle ridge is my fav mountain although the walk in is a bit difficult the actual scrambling was very good and pretty easy I think it should of been grade 2 though  there was hand holds the whole route and the crux was amazing although we had a rope on the hole time of the scramble which I found a bit unnecessary I probably could of solod the whole route but it was my fav days on the mountain 

I saw a picture of this in 1982(?) during a slide show by Brian Evans, who wrote the original Lakeland scrambles guide. I used to cave a lot with him and no-one there who saw his pictures could believe it was in the Lakes at first it just looked so fantastic. When I did it myself I soloed it and it was very good. Yes, the walk up is an effort but that's mountains for you. It does get easier the more you do it!

Post edited at 14:31
 Tom Valentine 17 Aug 2020

In reply to Aonach eagach is the best:

If it's true that you are 14, ask your English teacher .

Post edited at 14:36
2
 C Witter 17 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

> Yes but I may need to edit that 

> scottish (the best ridge walks and ridge scrambles )

> Wales ( the best scrambles in 1 area aka Ogwen valley )

> lake District ( mostly walks but a few decent to good scrambles ec pinnacle ridge ,jacks rake ,cam crag ridge ,threading the needle,

> peak District ( a few nice waterfall scrambles and some nice climbs )

> yorkshire ( for the lolz)

I think Wasdale probably has the best scrambling in the Lakes, but I've not done much of it - e.g. Threading the Needle into Sphinx Ridge into Pinnacle Ridge (Westmoreland Crags), or Lord's Rake and West Wall Traverse. Pinnacle Ridge on St. Sunday Crag is good quality, but it's half an hour of scrambling that can't be linked into anything else worthwhile except walking. Also, ridges like Striding and Sharp Edge, whilst pleasant, are just very short compared to something like Crib Goch. The upside of the Lakes is that there are so many quiet and beautiful places. The gills can be very special places to (carefully) explore.

I've not got much done in Scotland, to be honest. But, I look forward to exploring it more soon, as I've finally got a car - but I'll probably have to wait until the coronavirus situation has calmed down (sometime around 2022 perhaps?!).

1
In reply to C Witter:

Have u done curved ridge ? 

4
Removed User 17 Aug 2020
In reply to peppermill:

> I think it's quite tricky to grade scrambles as it's basically steep bit of a scary walk, steeper and a bit scarier and so forth. Some people will be using hands all the time, others will be mooching along with their hands in their pockets for most of the route. 

> I think scrambling is way more fun if you don't overthink "Moves" too much and bash on with it.

Doesn't sound as though you have done many scrambles 'mooching along with your hands in your pockets'- I dont think so. I may have mentioned Craig LLoer Spur on here a couple of times grade2/3 try that with your hands in your pockets Pen on Scafell Pike grade 3 -crucial pull on a heather root last time I did it with a killer drop below, Like many mountain environments underestimating the dangers is a dodgy road to go down.

3
Removed User 17 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

The difference between Pinnacle Ridge at Grade 3 and East Ridge of Y Garn at grade 2 is that the technical crux of Pinnacle Ridge is in the least exposed part behind one of the larger pinnacles its moderate/difficult climbing for 20 feet the rest is no harder than grade 2 albeit more exposed. East Ridge is just Grade 2 all the way with an exposed bit at the top. Welcome to the interminable debate on grades,

 C Witter 17 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

On the Big Buachaille? Aye, in winter. It was a cracking day. Have you?

In reply to Removed Userjess13:

Yes but the thing is for me anyway the crux on Pr is way easier than the castell on Y Garn 

In reply to C Witter:

Yes I want to do that one 1 day looks a great route 

 wintertree 17 Aug 2020
In reply to Kalna_kaza:

> YoU mIgHt As WeLl WrItE lIkE tHiS. I'm no punctuation police officer but your post is unreadable. 

Oddly enough I find that easy to read because it’s short, punctuated and surrounded by white space.  

Likewise I found Bascule’s chapters in Feersum Enjin easy to read.  Punctuation and white space are what guides the eyes around; they mttaer far mroe tahn splleing, as English has such a low information density your brain only needs to see the general shape of it get it.

 wintertree 17 Aug 2020
In reply to timjones:

> As an expert in " languages, communication, discourse, and language analysis", how would you judge someone who only bothers to use full stops when flashing their degree around?

A person who understands information theory and likes to conserve bandwidth?  They used the full stop where it was required but didn’t use it where whitespace fulfilled the same function. You  may notice that their selective use of punctuation didn’t limit your ability to read the message at all.  You will note they did use a full stop as a sentence terminator separate to flashing their degree, where it was necessary.

The whole English language is a giant troll, I’m convinced.  Any argument about it is borderline pointless.

I am significantly more distressed by their use of the Oxford comma.  My view on that is simple - if it is required for correct comprehension, re-write the text to remove its need.  If it’s not needed, don’t use it.  The word “and” serves the purpose of the comma; if you must use a comma omit the “and”. 

Post edited at 23:47
1
In reply to wintertree:

Yes I really hope this English writing thing is a troll cuz if not then that guy is some annoying sad f*ck trying to say I’m a troll just because my English is bad like wtf

15
 wintertree 18 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

> Yes I really hope this English writing thing is a troll cuz if not then that guy is some annoying sad f*ck trying to say I’m a troll just because my English is bad like wtf

It’s all about communication.  

It may be a stupid language that’s got very little logic in its structure, but it’s what we learn and what we use.  I’m severely dyslexic; I’ve spent a lot of effort forcing myself to learn the stupid, idiotic structures of the language because doing so helps me to communicate effectively. 90% of the time in life, being able to communicate is more useful than being clever or being strong.

So I pay no heed to people who think their mastery of a stupid language makes them superior, but I understand that how I write affects the ability of others to engage with what I write.  

 Tom Valentine 18 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Is your dad aware that you are posting on UKC ( as well as giving you lifts to scrambling areas)?

Has he seen the content of your posts?

More importantly, is he aware that you claim to have had suicidal tendencies?

2
 peppermill 18 Aug 2020
In reply to Removed Userjess13:

"Most of the route"

And yes?????

 John Ww 18 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

> Yes I really hope this English writing thing is a troll cuz if not then that guy is some annoying sad f*ck trying to say I’m a troll just because my English is bad like wtf

Because if you are who you claim to be, ie a child, then you need to realise you’re asking for advice and giving your opinions on a forum used almost exclusively by adults, the vast majority of who communicate in adult language. If you wish to be taken seriously, I suggest you do likewise.

 Paul Sagar 18 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

You can write however you want, but if you carry on writing like this, people will just assume that you're thick.

If you're fine with that, carry on - who cares? But if you'd rather that other people didn't think you were thick, try writing in proper English.

This is important for life in general, and not just this forum. When you are looking for a job in a few years, most employers will ignore your application if they see you writing like you are doing here. Perhaps that's unfair, but it's how the world works. 

Do you read books? A good way to learn how to write better is to read good writing. There are loads of good novels out there, and a load of great climbing books. These are fun to read, and not a chore. For example, have you read Joe Simpson's book Touching the Void, about how he broke his leg mountaineering in South America, his partner cut his rope as he was dangling in a crevasse, and he somehow survived the fall and then crawled for 2 days to get back to base camp and survive? 

That's an amazing read, and as somebody who is finding a love for the mountains, I guarantee you'd enjoy it. 

In reply to Paul Sagar:

Tbf Mate idc what people think of me 

12
 Tom Valentine 18 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Not caring what people think of you is fine as long as you don't want them to respond in a helpful way after you've asked for advice.

In reply to Tom Valentine:

Ye but I’ll try my best to write English but it’s hard because I’m used to using words what everyone says these days and when we message people we don’t use grammar so it will be hard but I’ll try my best because some people have dyslexia 

6
 Tom Valentine 18 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Do you use text/ message language in all your written work at school? 

 bouldery bits 18 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

It must be raining. 

 Howard J 18 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

If you can't cba to write clearly why should anyone else ba to try to make sense of it?

Punctuation not only breaks your flow into digestible chunks, by thinking about punctuation this will help you to organise your ideas and express yourself more clearly, instead of just presenting a flow of semi-coherent thoughts. By the age of 14 you should have been studying English long enough to know how to do this, if you still don't then speak to your English teacher.

As someone has pointed out, this is an adult forum.  You're very welcome to contribute, but expect to be treated like an adult.  That includes writing like an adult.  This is how you will have to communicate in the world of work, so get used to it now, and it will be to your advantage in a few years' time.

You have got off to a bad start because you have come across as expressing a lot of opinions which, quite frankly, you don't yet have the experience to hold. I agree it would be a good idea to re-register under a different identity, and think more carefully about what you are posting and how you express yourself. Your enthusiasm for the outdoors is very evident, which is great, and you are very welcome here, but consider asking more for advice and less about expressing opinions, which can easily come across as trolling.

Turning to your actual post, climbing grades are very different from scrambles.  A climb follows a very narrow line, there are a limited number of holds and a limited number of ways to use them, so it should be possible to grade them fairly accurately.  Even so, there is a great deal of disagreement.  Scrambles follow only a general line and there are usually many alternatives.  I have done Tryfan North Ridge countless times, and never gone the same way twice.  The 'line' is probably several hundred yards wide. You can seek out difficulties, or walk around them.   Grading scrambles with the degree of precision you suggest would be pointless - no one would be able to agree, and it wouldn't convey anything useful.  A general idea of difficulty combined with the route description should be all that is necessary.

 John Ww 18 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

> Tbf Mate idc what people think of me 

To be honest, that’s probably a very good thing.

 malk 18 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

don't worry bro- i understood you well enough. too many grammar pedants on UKC (i prefer the super-pedants who correct the pedants

scrambling often has many route/move options- maybe you chose an easier/harder move 'off-route' on some of them? how's your route finding?

i suggest you take up rock climbing with its more reliable grading system

(ps can someone please correct my hyphens)

2
In reply to malk:

Yes I want to do rock climbing trouble is I may be wrong but usually scrambling takes u to the top of the mountains but doesn’t rock climbing like usually have only 200 m worth of climbing 

6
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

(Edited)

> Yes, I want to 'Rock Climb'.

>The trouble is - and here I may be wrong - that scrambling usually takes you to the summit of a mountain.

>Doesn’t 'rock climbing' usually have only 200 metres of climbing ?

By this logic you should perhaps think about hillwalking, which can take you to a summit even more often than scrambling. 

Post edited at 15:56
 malk 18 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

yes, rock climbs often shorter and loads of faff with ropes/people-i can see why you're seeking out hard scrambles but prob more risk of death than easy rock climbing with a partner. the inn pinn is a nice little grade 3/Mod scramble to the top..

 Billhook 18 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

You get a taxi?  Jeez that must cost a bomb.  You obviously get good pocket money.  And your dad must love you to bits.  Does he have any hobbies himself?

2
 malk 18 Aug 2020
In reply to Billhook:

carpenter? i'd say mind you own business..

1
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Is the cneifon arête better than the Aonach Eagach now, then?


Subdividing scrambling grades would not be useful or practical. There is a range of difficulty in each grade (striding edge = barely grade 1 , sharp edge = benchmark grade 1, bristly ridge= top end grade 1), but once you’ve done a few at each grade the system makes sense. It’s not perfect, lines vary, bits fall off, some days it’s wet and windy, and some scrambles May suit you more than others- but overall it works and any attempt to subdivide the existing grades is just creating spurious precision. 

 malk 18 Aug 2020
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

or just integrate with rock climbing grades eg. make Grades 1-2 mild/hard Easy and Grade 3 mild/hard Mod?

In reply to malk:

No, I think there’s something qualitatively different about scrambling compared to rock climbing that justifies having another grading system. There are some routes could (and do) get graded in both systems, but I think eg curved ridge makes more sense as a grade 3 scramble than a moderate climb, likewise pinnacle ridge st Sunday crag- the crux is at least mod, maybe diff, but that’s only one part of it, and the scrambling grade fits that better. 
 

Post edited at 17:01
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Isn’t curved ridge a grade 2

1
In reply to Billhook:

You're the one who seems to be trolling now. Give the patronising comments a rest.

In reply to Billhook:

Ffs will u f*ck off do u not have anything better to do than try to piss me off All day and I earn money thank you 

8
In reply to Ron Rees Davies:

I hate hill walking with a passion.

Walking is the worst thing about scrambling .

is there any scrambling routes what are scrambling from the bottom to the top with no walking ?

Post edited at 17:11
8
In reply to malk:

Yes that’s a great idea 

1
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Definitely not. Benchmark grade 3. Long, sustained, the easiest route through harder ground (people not infrequently make a navigational error and end up on a neighbouring severe graded rock climb), with steeper sections which fortunately have good ledges below them. 

In reply to Cneifion Arête:

> I hate hill walking with a passion.

> Walking is the worst thing about scrambling .

> is there any scrambling routes what are scrambling from the bottom to the top with no walking ?

Yes, they are called rock climbs. 
 

 malk 18 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

hard easy doesn't sound too good tho?

In reply to Cneifion Arête:

> I hate hill walking with a passion.

> Walking is the worst thing about scrambling .

> is there any scrambling routes what are scrambling from the bottom to the top with no walking ?

You need to get into proper climbing.

In reply to malk:

But like have easy c for say something like the cmd or striding edge 

then have easy b for Crib Goch and touted like that what are exposed but easy 

then have easy a for routes like bristly ridge have easy a

then Have easy a + for routes like milestone gully 

then the same goes for the medium c medium b medium a medium a + witch are equivalent to grade 2 and grade 2 +

then same goes for the hard c b a a+ for the equivalent to grade 3 and 3s

2
In reply to malk:

I think there could be a place for it, and it’s marginally more challenging neighbour, Mild Very Easy...

In reply to Cneifion Arête:

I was going to try a hard cba route, but I lost interest in it....

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

So that’s cam crag ridge cuz u can make that easy medium or different 

 malk 18 Aug 2020
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

no very for the lower grades

In reply to malk:

Oh I see that’s makes sense 

In reply to malk:

Well, yes, but since we’re blue sky thinking, let’s create them...

mild easy 

easy

hard easy

mild very easy

very easy

hard very easy

mild moderate 

moderate 

hard moderate 

mild very moderate 

very moderate 

hard very moderate 

Mild difficult

that gives a baker’s dozen grades to play with before we even get to Diff- that should be enough to fit all these routes in somewhere. Indeed, some can have their own private grade

now, some of them don’t make a whole lot of sense; but I’m sure we’ll soon get used to them

And, as a good Lib Dem voter, my personal favourite is Very Moderate...

Post edited at 17:47
 Lankyman 18 Aug 2020
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

> Well, yes, but since we’re blue sky thinking, let’s create them...

> mild easy 

> easy

> hard easy

> mild very easy

> very easy

> hard very easy

> mild moderate 

> moderate 

> hard moderate 

> mild very moderate 

> very moderate 

> hard very moderate 

> Mild difficult

> that gives a baker’s dozen grades to play with before we even get to Diff- that should be enough to fit all these routes in somewhere. Indeed, some can have their own private grade

> now, some of them don’t make a whole lot of sense; but I’m sure we’ll soon get used to them

> And, as a good Lib Dem voter, my personal favourite is Very Moderate...

>


This is all well and good but we know that The Artist Formerly Known as Aonach absolutely loathes walking. I don't know many scrambles where a walk doesn't come into it. Some of these walks are absolute ball breakers. Pillar Rock, upper Eskdale and so on. Can you modify the system to accommodate these appalling route marches?

 Bacon Butty 18 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Hahaha, grade discussions ...

They are so subjective, especially at our bimbly end of the spectrum, they're verging on nonsense.
You could cruise a grade 1 one day, then go back the following week, and it'd feel like a Diff.  What's changed?  A pint too many the night before, the wind is blowing the other way, the sun isn't out, didn't get to entertain the wife recently, etc etc etc

 McHeath 18 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

> I hate hill walking with a passion.

 You should maybe forget your plans to do anything in the Alps then... 

In reply to McHeath:

Absolutely not Matterhorn looks amazing 

5
 McHeath 18 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

It does from a distance, but the first half of the Hörnli route is a dangerous pile of steep choss on which it's easy to lose your way/get hit by rockfall and end up in a bag under a helicopter. The second half is even steeper and can give you the full range of alpine unpleasantries. And even getting to the hut involves a lot of strenuous hill walking. 

In reply to McHeath:

Is Eiger better 

5
 McHeath 18 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Worse; the normal route up and down the West Flank is even chossier and very dangerous should the clouds come in (ie just about daily). 

 J101 18 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

You could just go and climb Cnicht - the "Welsh Matterhorn" instead 

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

You seem to have forgotten how the Ogwen guides used 'Just' as well. Please don't tell me you've never heard of 'Just Hard Very Moderate'. Or 'Mild Very Moderate, but only just.' There's also a useful general one: 'F**k these pathetic "grades" and let's just accept that it's not a walk.'

Post edited at 20:08
2
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I always liked the Roaches guide, with the Far Skyline Boulders, the Very Far Skyline boulders, and the Hard Very Far Skyline boulders

 Billhook 18 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Its a bit confusing as you appear to have changed names.  If you are pissed off thats your fault.

At 14 I owned a peddle bike. But you I'm glad you manage to get around fine.  Just curious thats all.  
BTW how do you earn money?  

1
 John Ww 18 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

> Ffs will u f*ck off do u not have anything better to do than try to piss me off All day and I earn money thank you 

My sentiments entirely - towards you, just in case you’re confused.

3
 John Ww 18 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

> Is Eiger better 

Yep, piece of piss, everybody says so, never heard of anybody having any difficulty, grade is mild very easy.

2
In reply to J101:

And we’re is the fun and danger in that that’s just a hill

1
In reply to John Ww:

Ah thank you mate what’s the north face like 

1
 John Ww 18 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Dead easy, and you can get the train (or a taxi) right to the bottom of the face, so no walking involved 👍

1
 J101 18 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

They're all just hills mate, some are a bit bigger or more pointy than others is all. Life's not a ticklist of names you've seen in guidebooks or online, you can have a good day out pretty much anywhere. 

In reply to J101:

Hmmm you’re right I’m going to climb yr esgair 

In reply to John Ww:

That sounds amazing 

 Cornish boy 19 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

You would be well advised to read very carefully Steve Ashton’s description of this route (in Scrambles in Snowdonia) before deciding to attempt climbing it! 

 Billhook 19 Aug 2020
In reply to Cornish boy:

He doesn't have a guide book.

2
In reply to Billhook:

I have Steve Ashton’s 

In reply to Cneifion Arête:

If you’re in the market for another, this one worth a look- plenty to inspire you...

https://www.amazon.com/Ridges-England-Wales-Ireland-Scrambles/dp/1852845392

there’s a similar one covering Scotland too

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

50 pound is a joke 

1
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

I bought the one billhork said

Post edited at 15:01
1
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

oops that link was to amazon in USA. Here’s the UK one:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Scotlands-Mountain-Ridges-Scrambling-Mountaineerin...
 

available for £15, and well worth it (Other booksellers also available, I’m not on commission from amazon, just lazy in looking for links...

Post edited at 15:30
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

> I bought the one billhork said

Don’t let that stop you getting more- I’ve got a shelf full of them, enjoyable distraction flicking through them on a rainy day...

This is a great one:

https://www.awesomebooks.com/book/9780951599693/scrambles-and-easy-climbs-i...

There’s a snowdonia equivalent too

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Hmm I might get that one haven’t got one for the Lake District but aren’t most of the scrambles in Lake District grade 1s it gill scrambles

4
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Overall I don’t think the lakes have got scrambles that are in the same league as snowdonia or Scotland, but there are lots of worthwhile ones all the same, and not just in gills- cam  crag mentioned already, belles knott, the scramble on gillercombe buttress, the one on raven crag in yewdale, long crag above coniston are all grade 1 or 2, and worth a couple of stars. There’s also one on Ill crag from eskdale which I’ve not done but which is meant to be a classic, long grade 3. 
 

the book also has classic low grade climbs up to vdiff, of which there are many- and if you don’t want a walk, little chamonix in borrowdale is hard to beat- it’s most definitely not a scramble though

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

I’ve had some people tell me not to bother with cam crag ridge apparently it’s not verry good apparently it’s not commuting and apparently it’s better to go to the secret cave instead 

4
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

It’s good for the lakes...! 
 

ie definitely a worthwhile day out, good rock, nice location, continuous scrambling rather than scrappy pockets mixed with walking, and the crux corner is quite tricky for the grade (I fell off it- big bendy boots in the wet to blame... well, actually just incompetence )

but not in the same league as cneifon, Aonach Eagach, torridon ridges etc. 
 

the walk in isn’t short either...

Post edited at 17:02
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Hmm maybe I’ll give it a go one day then but Lake District is like the same distance for me than wales is in fact Lake District is even further so there’s no point really 

3
 Bulls Crack 23 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

I enjoyed the comma on line 7 - I was about to expire

 Mark Bannan 24 Aug 2020
In reply to Removed Userjess13:

> The difference between Pinnacle Ridge at Grade 3 ... moderate/difficult climbing for 20 feet the rest is no harder than grade 2 albeit more exposed.

I have the book "Skye Scrambles". Superbly written, it clearly distinguishes between walks, scrambles and climbs. While I can see some logic in using the "Easy" in lieu of scrambling grades, the Grade 1, 2 and 3 scramble grades seem more clearly defined. The introduction to this book explains these Scrambling grades very well, with Grade 1 scrambles, clearly requiring some handwork and distinguishable from a walk, while Grade 3 scrambles are slightly easier than a Moderate rock climb, but often exposed and significantly technical. Grade 2 is obviously intermediate between these extremes.

> Welcome to the interminable debate on grades,

Although I agree about this fact, some sort of closure to the confusion, frequently expressed on UKC about scrambling grades would lessen this debate somewhat. Personally, I think it's nonsensical to say a route is a Grade 3 scramble when it contains rock climbing of Diff. standard. By this token, Tower Ridge or Final Selection (both obviously Diff.) could be claimed as Grade 3 scrambles, which seems ridiculous.

Post edited at 01:11
1
In reply to Mark Bannan:

Most of the grade 3 scrambles I've done have short sections of diff.

1
 Mark Bannan 24 Aug 2020
In reply to pancakeandchips:

If a route has sections of Diff, then it is a Diff rock climb, not a Grade 3 scramble. Or it is a short Diff rock climb with a Grade 3 scramble approach.

6
 tehmarks 24 Aug 2020
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

D+. An interesting idea, but would benefit from objective analysis from both sides of the argument, and the essay structure and basic punctuation both need significant work.

Recommend redrafting before submitting to the exam board.

 HardenClimber 24 Aug 2020
In reply to PaulJepson:

Cavers have enough to discuss without worrying about grades, thank you!

Caving grades are a very rough approximation (and a coalescence of many different factors....), and subjective difficulty is very influenced by reach, leg length (harder or easier or both, depending), chest compressibility, cold tolerance, your personal fears (narrow airspace / tight passages / exposure / exhaustion, ropework)....

Lots of scope to really complicate things....

or just remember a grade 3 is almost certainly easier that a grade 5, and if you are doing a grade 5 you make sure you know why it is a grade 5 before you go (and develop huge respect for the first person to have pushed a narrow tube round a blind corner....)

 PaulJepson 24 Aug 2020
In reply to HardenClimber:

I mostly just wanted them to go and bother someone else. Cavers seem glutinous for punishment.

In reply to PaulJepson:

> Cavers seem glutinous 

that’ll be all that thick mud they probably have to squirm through...

1

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