Scotland, post Xmas travel?

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 Graeme G 22 Dec 2020

Am I right in saying that the only hills I can walk on are the ones in my own local authority?

 girlymonkey 22 Dec 2020
In reply to Graeme G:

I believe that is correct at the moment. Bbc was saying that Sturgeon is considering whether to tighten restrictions even further, so I wonder if we might be back to the 5 mile thing. I guess we will need to wait and see.

Hope you don't live in central Glasgow!

OP Graeme G 22 Dec 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

That’s what I thought. Bummer.

 skog 22 Dec 2020
In reply to Graeme G:

Under current rules, for levels 3 and 4 (and all of mainland Scotland will be in level 4 from 26th onwards), it's any you can travel to within, or within 5 miles of, your council area. To be clear - you're allowed to travel up to 5 miles from your council area to start your exercise. And the hills themselves do not have to be in your council area.

That might be about to be tightened further, though.

 Dave Hewitt 22 Dec 2020
In reply to Graeme G:

As skog says, there's the "five miles beyond" rule which is very useful for certain council areas - eg skog and I are both in Stirling and it lets us get along to the middle section of the Ochils given that the west end of Tillicoultry is exactly five miles along the A91 beyond the Stirling/Clacks boundary - hence Menstrie and Alva, also both in Clacks, are OK for Stirling folk too. But not Dollar. (Personally I've been making good use of this since it came in what feels like ages ago.) Note that you also have to get back to your starting point if doing that - not entirely sure why, but that's in the legislation too. The five-miles-beyond thing is less use in lots of other council areas, though - eg the main city ones which tend to be doughnutted by other pretty urban councils.

Re the Level 3 and 4 things, there's a clause in Level 4 that isn't in Level 3 which says something about not travelling further than you need to even within your council area. I'll see if I can dig it out if I get a minute amid all the present-wrapping etc. What I've taken that to mean, living in Stirling which has been both 3 and 4 recently, is that if I fancied a Munro during a Level 4 period I shouldn't trundle off to say Crianlarich even though it's in Stirling council, whereas I could do that without any worries when we're in Level 3. A few weeks ago when we were in Level 4 a friend and I went up Stuc a' Chroin from the Callander side - the nearest start-point for a Munro within the council area - and I felt absolutely fine about that. I might well have gone as far as the more regular Stuc/Vorlich start-points too, but I wouldn't have gone much further. That's my personal take on it however and others will assess things differently.

Incidentally, on the possible imminent tightening to Level 4, already today I've heard mutterings and murmurings from several people who have been diligent to a fault re the rules thus far but who think this is getting a bit ridiculous. I can see quite a lot of people not sticking to it if it goes back to, say, an absolute five-mile travel limit.

 Fat Bumbly2 22 Dec 2020
In reply to Dave Hewitt:

The thought of going back to the urban /beach crowd dodging of the Spring but with a more infective pathogen is pretty frightening. I decided back then that if this returned, I would continue to visit the nearby but greater than 8km away hills.  Unless there is mental crowding there too, but I doubt this will happen, avoiding opportunities to infect others drives choices, not wearing a hair shirt and making empty gestures.  

It must not be forgotten that something pretty serious has happened to the infection rates, our local schools were very badly hit

Post edited at 17:54
OP Graeme G 22 Dec 2020
In reply to Dave Hewitt:

Thanks. The 5 mile limit is massively limiting for the NE, was hoping for a day out maybe 28th. Will check my possibilities nearer the time.

Edit: this def adds to the frustration 

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/winter_climbing/cairngorm_mt_snow_gate_cl...

Post edited at 17:45
 Fat Bumbly2 22 Dec 2020
In reply to Graeme G:

It’s a swine if you are on the coast as well.

 Robert Durran 22 Dec 2020
In reply to Dave Hewitt

It is possible to be quite creative with the 5 mile thing. I live in Kinross. Tyndrum, Bridge of Orchy and the Kingshouse are all within 5 miles of the Perth and Kinross boundary, though, after my first ten minutes drive to Muckhart, I would not be in Perth and Kinross at all! I've not yet done this but used similar reasoning to set out from Dalwhinnie a few weeks ago. 

Greater Clackmannanshire (Clackmannanshire + 5 miles) is about 4 times the area of Clackmannanshire!

> Incidentally, on the possible imminent tightening to Level 4, already today I've heard mutterings and murmurings from several people who have been diligent to a fault re the rules thus far but who think this is getting a bit ridiculous. I can see quite a lot of people not sticking to it if it goes back to, say, an absolute five-mile travel limit.

Yes, I think many people, myself included are probably increasingly going to act in the spirit rather than the letter of the law (travel and walk alone with no stops for shops or fuel). 

Post edited at 17:48
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 jpicksley 22 Dec 2020
In reply to skog:

Hi - I didn't know this detail. Is that clause in amongst all the guidance on the government website? I don't suppose you'd send me a link to it, would you, please?

Thanks.

 Fat Bumbly2 22 Dec 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

Been doing that since October, especially during level 2 times, when 98% of journeys were through 3 and 4. Remarkably easy to avoid others on all these trips although the one munro was a bit busy. Gave up on the post work Dumyats too due to busyness 

 skog 22 Dec 2020
In reply to jpicksley:

https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-guidance-on-travel-a...

"local outdoor informal exercise such as walking, cycling, golf, or running (in groups of up to 6 people, plus any children under 12, from no more than 2 households) that starts and finishes at the same place (which can be up to 5 miles from the boundary of your local authority area)"

That's the current guidance, though, so might change shortly.

 jpicksley 22 Dec 2020
In reply to skog:

Nice one. Thanks.

 Dave Hewitt 22 Dec 2020
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:

> Gave up on the post work Dumyats too due to busyness 

Dumyat especially by the main path serves quite a useful purpose in that it draws everyone in. Colsnaur or Blairdenon are much better/quieter options thereabouts, and not hugely longer time/effort-wise - but you know that! Dumyat from the Menstrie side or up the steep Blairlogie routes is "normal" - but it does still end up getting busy and rather litter-strewn on top.

(I heard the other day of someone who has done 300 Dumyats this year.)

 Fat Bumbly2 22 Dec 2020
In reply to Dave Hewitt: An upvote for Meikle Corum. Can see the ridge from the technicians window. Always a massive frustration when in a cycle of sun and snow on week days, dreich weekends. I doubt you would have distancing issues there.

 GrantM 22 Dec 2020
In reply to Graeme G:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/2020/344/schedule/5/2020-12-11

Examples of reasonable excuse

16.—(1) For the purposes of this Part, examples of what constitutes a reasonable excuse (see regulation 5(4)) include leaving or remaining away from the area in which the person lives, or (as the case may be) entering or remaining in a Level 4 area that the person does not live in, for the purposes set out in sub-paragraph (2).

(t)exercise outdoors, provided that the exercise—

(i)is not organised, and

(ii)starts and ends at the same place, which place must be—

(aa)in the local government area in which the person lives, or

(bb)within 5 miles of such local government area,

 Robert Durran 22 Dec 2020
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:

> Been doing that since October, especially during level 2 times, when 98% of journeys were through 3 and 4. Remarkably easy to avoid others on all these trips although the one munro was a bit busy. Gave up on the post work Dumyats too due to busyness 

So was that travelling from one level 2 area to another one through level 3 and 4? 

 Fat Bumbly2 22 Dec 2020
In reply to Robert Durran: Yes....

Meanwhile in reply to gman2012 I spent a few minutes in a free period walking around the school grounds (an orienteering course) some 100km from home. I await the door being kicked in

Post edited at 19:49
 Dave Hewitt 22 Dec 2020
In reply to Graeme G:

Here's that extra bit that I mentioned upthread about staying local even in your own council area in Level 4:

If you live in a Level 4 local authority area you should:
- you must, by law, remain within that area unless you have a reasonable excuse (see exceptions)
- you should also keep journeys within the area to an absolute minimum
- if you have to travel for essential purposes, you should follow the guidance on travelling safely

The equivalent bit for Level 3 has the first and last points but not the middle one - so there's no problem with going anywhere in one's council area in Level 3 but there is in Level 4.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-guidance-on-travel-a...

This particularly affects the large council areas - Stirling's been familiar with this for ages but it's now about to hit Highland too. I've seen comments already from Highland residents along the lines of "Well it's a big council area so we'll have lots of scope", but the restrictions appear to indicate that, come Boxing Day, if you live in say Newtonmore then you shouldn't be driving to Kintail for a walk, nor anything like that distance. Whether it will be in any way policed is another matter, of course.

 Point of View 23 Dec 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

If I was thinking of breaking the law (which I'm not!) I would do it quietly rather than advertising the fact in an open forum.

 Robert Durran 23 Dec 2020
In reply to Point of View:

> If I was thinking of breaking the law (which I'm not!) I would do it quietly rather than advertising the fact in an open forum.

Fair point and one I admit I have made myself in the past. On the other hand, quite a good test for oneself might be: Am I prepared to openly admit it? If "yes" then it is probably morally fine, but, if "no" then it is probably not. What I certainly wouldn't be doing is posting photos of anything on FB or whatever which I think would be rubbing it in the noses of people who have come to different judgements.

 Alan Breck 23 Dec 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

> It is possible to be quite creative with the 5 mile thing. I live in Kinross. Tyndrum, Bridge of Orchy and the Kingshouse are all within 5 miles of the Perth and Kinross boundary, though, after my first ten minutes drive to Muckhart, I would not be in Perth and Kinross at all! I've not yet done this but used similar reasoning to set out from Dalwhinnie a few weeks ago. 

I do like legislation if it's clearly laid out and watertight. I don't however want to end up arguing semantics with any bolshie plod so your suggestion that Tyndrum is within five miles of the boundary was interesting. Looking at the legislation however it states "you can travel to within, or within 5 miles of, your council area" (per Skog. Haven't checked yer actual wording!) 

Now that might apply as the crow flies but from the Perth & Kinross boundary at Killin to Crianlarich is FIFTEEN miles. So is that within the elastic yes officer I thought that it was only five miles so please don't fine me?

Incidentally I looked at travel to Braemar as being hopefully within the five miles bit it's well outside. The Spittal however is well within the boundary. 

 skog 23 Dec 2020
In reply to Alan Breck:

Worth noting that, while the link I shared was to the actual Scottish Government rules and guidelines, Mountaineering Scotland have already had a good go at untangling, assembing and restating it in plain English on their site here:

https://www.mountaineering.scot/coronavirus

 ScraggyGoat 23 Dec 2020
In reply to skog:

Glad to see that Mountaineering Scotland have taken on board (cough) the criticism from early in the year that they had become a mouth-piece of the Scottish Government.

If I was a individual member I wouldn't be renewing.

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 Alan Breck 23 Dec 2020

If Robert is keen though he could drive to the East end of Loch Lyon. Cycle to the West end of Loch Lyon or just beyond. Still within the boundary. Beinn Dorain and Beinn an Dothaidh are then well within range! The Green Welly shop should still be OK. Wouldn't bet on it though.

Think that I'll join the Hedgehogs and hibernate.

 henwardian 23 Dec 2020
In reply to Graeme G:

It will be interesting to see how the rules are followed (or not) in the post-christmas period. I think that out of all the people I've spoken to about their Christmas plans, maybe 50% are following the rules.

Also, in case you were feeling upbeat: The restrictions will most likely be never-ending because if the rate of new variants emerging right now is anything to go by, I give it about 2 weeks from vaccine rollout (i.e. already) for a variant that circumvents the vaccine to develop, we just haven't identified it yet. So look forward to several years at least of cycles of vaccine development and then Coronavirus mutation.

In other news, Santa died from Corona last week, everything good and nice your mother ever told you when you were young was a lie and corona will almost certainly be followed by something far worse. MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!!!

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 Robert Durran 23 Dec 2020
In reply to henwardian:

> It will be interesting to see how the rules are followed (or not) in the post-christmas period. I think that out of all the people I've spoken to about their Christmas plans, maybe 50% are following the rules.

Let alone breaking the Christmas rules, if anyone mixing households indoors* at Christmas within the rules but against the urging of the Prime Minister and First Minister dares criticise my technically illegal ascent of a Corbett yesterday, they can, quite frankly, f*** off.

> In other news, Santa died from Corona last week.

At last some good news in these bleak times. Good riddance to the fat, bearded make-believe bastard.

Edit: *unless in particularly exceptional circumstances.

Post edited at 19:52
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Le Sapeur 23 Dec 2020
In reply to Graeme G:

Living in Skye I will legally be able to travel to Aviemore and climb in the Cairngorms. Perhaps I could take the ferry to Harris for a spot of hill walking; maybe a day out on the Ben. A bit of a joke really. 

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Le Sapeur 23 Dec 2020
In reply to ScraggyGoat:

> Glad to see that Mountaineering Scotland have taken on board (cough)

Not persistent I hope?

Le Sapeur 23 Dec 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

> At last some good news in these bleak times. Good riddance to the fat, bearded make-believe bastard.

Oi! Jesus wasn't fat.

 Dave Hewitt 23 Dec 2020
In reply to Le Sapeur:

> Living in Skye I will legally be able to travel to Aviemore and climb in the Cairngorms. Perhaps I could take the ferry to Harris for a spot of hill walking; maybe a day out on the Ben. A bit of a joke really. 

Be careful - there's the Level 4 clause that I mentioned upthread: "you should also keep journeys within the area to an absolute minimum".

You might be OK and you might not be stopped, but earlier today I was hearing from someone whose friend fairly recently drove just a few miles (single figures, I think) from a Level 3 area to a Level 2 area for a hairdresser's appointment. They were stopped - twice, admittedly, silly of them to try the back roads after the first one. £1000 fine. And presumably no haircut.

 Kid Spatula 23 Dec 2020
In reply to Graeme G:

How far outside Glasgow is say... Dumgoyne?

 daftdazza 23 Dec 2020
In reply to Kid Spatula:

Dumgoyne is fair game for Glasgow residents, as is campsies, kilpatrick hills, whangie.  Some will push it out to loch Lomond side and maybe even Arrochar.  Anywhere I can cycle out to from Glasgow to then go a hike is fair game to me, and includes most of the above.

In reply to Graeme G:

The way things are looking with these new variants it is going to be about whether you get to go out for exercise at all.

 ScraggyGoat 23 Dec 2020
In reply to Le Sapeur:

Once in level four you wouldn't be able to pop across to Harris, except for essential reasons........ a good hòro-gheallaidh perhaps.  But If you are, or are mistaken for a Leòdhasach I wouldn't fancy your chances.

A good bit of plague & pestilence must have put the spring in the step of a fair few Ministers on the Isles, after all they (well one of them anyway) have been warning about the dangers of Sunday sailings for decades.

Post edited at 20:58
 FactorXXX 23 Dec 2020
In reply to Dave Hewitt:

>  They were stopped - twice, admittedly, silly of them to try the back roads after the first one. £1000 fine. And presumably no haircut.

Do it enough times and they might well end up with a lovely haircut courtesy of HMG. 👮‍♂️👩‍⚖️✂🪒

 Robert Durran 23 Dec 2020
In reply to Alan Breck:

> Now that might apply as the crow flies but from the Perth & Kinross boundary at Killin to Crianlarich is FIFTEEN miles. So is that within the elastic yes officer I thought that it was only five miles so please don't fine me?

My route to Tyndrum would be Kinross -Stirling-Callander-Crianlarich-Tyndrum. So I would only be within P and K for the first ten miles! Still within the letter of the law🙂

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 Robert Durran 23 Dec 2020
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> The way things are looking with these new variants it is going to be about whether you get to go out for exercise at all.

Yes, if estimates of its transmissability are correct, we will, even in a best case scenario, need a lockdown at least as strict as in the spring to stand any chance of containing it, let alone suppressing it. Fatigue and winter will almost certainly make compliance lower. Worst case scenarios are pretty much apocalyptic.

I find it amazing that all the headlines the last couple of days have been a out a few lorries stuck in Kent. It is almost as if the media are burying their heads in the sand about the horrors probably awaiting us in the new year.

 henwardian 23 Dec 2020
In reply to Le Sapeur:

> Living in Skye I will legally be able to travel to Aviemore and climb in the Cairngorms. Perhaps I could take the ferry to Harris for a spot of hill walking; maybe a day out on the Ben. A bit of a joke really. 

Harris isn't part of Highland, it's Comhairle nan Eilean Siar.

 Alan Breck 23 Dec 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

> My route to Tyndrum would be Kinross -Stirling-Callander-Crianlarich-Tyndrum. So I would only be within P and K for the first ten miles! Still within the letter of the law🙂

Don't think so. Kinross to Stirling is (roughly) 25 miles. So if 10 are inside P. & K. then you're still short of Stirling by 10 miles. Best of luck if you get stopped.

 Dave Hewitt 23 Dec 2020
In reply to Alan Breck:

> Don't think so. Kinross to Stirling is (roughly) 25 miles. So if 10 are inside P. & K. then you're still short of Stirling by 10 miles. Best of luck if you get stopped.

I too think Robert is pushing his luck with this calculation. Quite aside from anything else, the chances of a traffic cop accepting the nuances of the arithmetic are pretty slim. I wouldn't dream of trying that, anyway. What seems to be happening is that folk get a talking-to and turned around without a fine, but if they then have a second go all bets are off.

As to the question of how to measure the five-miles-beyond allowance, personally I've just been doing it by road distance given that it's meant to be a road thing - expeditions beyond on foot or or bike are fine anyway. The road measurement suits my habits very neatly, mind you - Tillicoultry is bang on five miles from the council boundary here so I can do lots of the Ochils stuff that I like to do in my normal habits and routines. But if there was some non-road crow-flies measurement that brought say Dollar into play, I wouldn't do it - I'm happy enough with what I've got. (Was along at Tilli again today: 81st Ben Cleuch ascent of the year, yikes. Nice day, very sharp views especially to the west, but bloomin' cold in the northerly wind up top.)

 Mr Messy 24 Dec 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

woooooooooooooo.

Jeeps

A bridge too far. 

Santa is real; Mum says so. Presents confirm so. Talking like that Mum would bash you so.

Well may be not we were looking at your fine pictures last week. My parents walking days are a distant memory.

But Ho Ho Ho he exists at least for a few more years I hope.

 Robert Durran 24 Dec 2020
In reply to Alan Breck:

> Don't think so. Kinross to Stirling is (roughly) 25 miles. So if 10 are inside P. & K. then you're still short of Stirling by 10 miles. Best of luck if you get stopped.

I enter Clacks after about 10 miles.

 Robert Durran 25 Dec 2020
In reply to Dave Hewitt:

> I too think Robert is pushing his luck with this calculation. Quite aside from anything else, the chances of a traffic cop accepting the nuances of the arithmetic are pretty slim. 

It would be quite amusing to have the discussion though! Obviously the intention was 5 miles by road, but the wording definitely doesn't actually say that. I am actually pretty unlikely to try my Tyndrum/Kingshouse plan even though it is within the letter of the law. I am far more likely to actually break the law by driving a bit more than 5 miles beyond the boundary (as I did two days ago).

However, I think it is important not to lose sight of the spirit of the law which is only, absolutely only, to stop the spread of the virus. There are any number of unnecessary things people are doing without a second thought which are within the letter of the law but are far more likely to spread the virus than illegally driving alone to a hill and walking up and down it. 

I think the speed limit analogy is very good; it is possible, in some circumstances, to drive almost 100% safely at 80mph on a motorway, while at other times it is possible to drive irresponsibly at 60mph.

As for non legally binding guidance, this time round I shall not feel bound by it - I shall always consider it when deciding where to go in the hills, but ultimately my decisions will be based on the spirit of not potentially spreading the virus.

Post edited at 07:58

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