UKH

Hi, 

I was wondering if running is beneficial to my hillwalking as I've been running over winter for fun and was wondering if anyone knows if it benefits hill walking. 

Thanks

Of course it does, being as active as possible helps. It isn't a 100% match for hillwalking though, but a million times better than not exercising.

Definitely. 

If nothing else but from a kit perspective. Helps you to really drill down on the weight you take which can be transferred to a hill walking environment with a few tweaks.

Yes!!

Yes - any aerobic exercise will stand you in good stead when you are slogging up that hill.

Definitely!

And the hillier and more off-road your runs are, the more beneficial they'll be. You might even get to the point where your runs get longer and you carry some supplies with you, and you end up walking some of the hills. And on your hill walks you might go a bit more lightweight and end up jogging some bits.

Before you know it, you're not sure what you're doing!

A lot of people running in the hills are regularly a sprained ankle away from a very serious situation (I have certainly been "guilty" myself). Like the "fast 'n light" approach to alpinism, it should be about taking the lightest version of what is sensible to take, not leaving out stuff which is sensible to take. The risks one might sometimes take running perhaps should not be carried over into hill walking.

The only possibly way I can imagine it not being beneficial is if you get injured, so mind how you go with the running. 

I'm the least qualified person in the world to be a running coach, but I think the following is probably good advice:  Pay attention to your running form and if you're new to it and start to enjoy it, resist the urge to increase your mileage too rapidly.  And stretch.

It depends how quickly you want to get there

Yes, definitely.  I used to get one decent trip to Scotland to Munro bag a year. I didn't used to hill walk at all from year to year but running and gym work used to give me a good cardio base so that I wasn't troubled by the climbs* and could enjoy the walking rather than enduring it. Anything that extends your 'type 1 fun' window is a good thing.

David

* well,  no more than the regular walkers I was with.

Slow running with a low heart rate is very good for hill walking.

If you're running such that you can comfortably hold a conversation then you're training your body to burn more fat, instead of just carbs, improving your aerobic fitness and building up this slow twitch muscle fibres in your legs which are rich in mitochondria which basically allow you to burn energy efficiently (if I remembered my reading correctly).

This translates really well to the slow plod of walking.

It most certainly is.  Great for cardio.  Not so ideal for your knees, but nothing in life is perfect.  Work up gradually, Run off road, if possible and enjoy the added freedom of longer days, that it can bring.

On the kit side obviously try and keep it light. But take what you would take walking a similar distance in similar conditions.  Try not to break that rule, though we all do at times and almost always get away with it. Take care and enjoy.

Yes - and vice versa.

Yes. It helps in the situation where you have no phone signal and you are desperately running in order to avoid missing the last bus back to your car a day's walk away.

you can get down far faster and away from paths if need be

We always used to train for big trips by fellrunning. My climbing partner Al had bad ankles and couldn’t run so he used to carry bags of sand on long hikes. To minimise ankle damage when competitively running we used to bind ankles and soles of feet below ankle level with zinc oxide tape. It worked for us and the extra cardio vascular loading helps for altitude training I think.

Well, based on extensive and selfless research, I can confirm that not running and instead sitting on your arse all day eating biscuits is not. 

They're one and the same and only really defined by the footwear choice.  If you had a spectrum from fastest runner to slowest walker the fastest walker and slowest runner would be somewhere around the same place.  As others have said all cardio is good cardio at a basic level and the fitter you are the more you might enjoy hill walking.  

Can we drop this tired old cliche about running being bad for your knees. There is absolutely no evidence to support it and plenty to support the idea that running will reduce knee problems.

I don't think footwear is the defining factor - I've done a lot of my hillwalking in running shoes. It really only comes down to whether you are walking or running (or a combination).

I'll agree about running not being bad for knees, or indeed joints in general.

However far too many people are jogging - in that I mean they are almost stopping on every stride. This means that their joints - including their knees - are shock-loaded each step. If they'd speed up, and maybe run for less distance but at a slightly faster pace, then this wouldn't happen.

In a previous millennia, I had an over a pint conversation with Roger Payne (tragically lost in 2012) and the conversation touched on the best exercise for mountaineering. Once getting beyond the obvious: that mountaineering is the only thing identical to mountaineering and that the most important thing is to do stuff that you enjoy -- His opinion as he told me then (infinitely more valuable than mine) was that cycling was the next-best thing for foundational training. That disappointed me as I don't like cycling (OK, hit those downvotes...!) and I was really hoping he'd say jogging/running.

The logic he gave me was that running tends to be relatively shorter durations and cycling is often longer duration (a cycling day is a closer duration to mountaineering) and that cycling can have a bigger range of motion with more leg-resistance than jogging (and he mentioned Llanberis and surrounding passes with a wry smile). So for various reasons he said "cycling".

I think the same would be true for hillwalking, that cycling may be a closer match. That all said note the "do what you enjoy" maxim at the start. So if running is the thing OP enjoys... then running is what OP should do.

Can’t remember where I read this, but I’ve seen it suggested that cycling is indeed good for walking up hills, but does nothing at all for your training for coming back down, ie. it doesn’t expose your leg muscles to eccentric loading. Potentially leading to severely jellied legs by the time you’re back at base. 

I remember Roger and the accident. I took up cycling when I could no longer run due to injury and even finished in the top ten overall in the Karrimor north of England mountain bike cross country race series. But in my opinion fell running at pace is far more tiring than cycling, irrespective of duration and the range of movement ascending and descending rough ground is infinitely more variable and directly applicable to mountaineering, with balance and reading the terrain, as opposed to free wheeling downhill on a bike. No matter how knackered you are cycling you can somehow get home. That’s not true of running once you’ve “bonked”. Each to his own though.

agree, my joints don't stand up well to running but cycling has given me great benefit over the years

Al Rouse? I read somewhere that he'd carry bags of sand uphill for training but leave the sand at the top to save the knees on the descent... 

Yes it was AR and we all still miss him. He’d go for miles carrying the sand, whereas I was very heavily into fell running, so 2 or 3 hours did the trick and somehow carrying sand seemed somewhat a waste of time. Al had wrecked his ankles for running attempting to solo the S. face of the Fou, and he took a big fall freeing an aid pitch, prompting a  painful descent and crawl back down to the Envers with broken bones. Nowadays people would be straight on the phone calling for help!

Yes, I think the great thing about running is that it's a lot of exercise in a short time.

But if you've got the time to go cycling for the day, why not actually just go walking which is obviously the best fit of all (particularly if you don't like cycling anyway).

Agree with "do what you enjoy", but I have to say that IME running is far more effective in increasing fitness than cycling. I used to hate running and just cycled, but I started doing it to train for an alpine trip. After just a few runs I noticed an improvement in my fitness when cycling - far more than if I'd just cycled more. I reckon half an hour running is worth two hours cycling for training purposes.

Yeah

Improved cardiovascular fitness: Running can increase your heart and lung capacity, which is essential for sustained effort during hillwalking.

Increased leg strength: Running works your legs, building up the strength and endurance you need to tackle hills and rough terrain.

Better balance and coordination: Running requires good balance and coordination, which can help you navigate uneven terrain while hillwalking.

Mental preparation: Running can help you mentally prepare for the demands of hillwalking, building confidence and resilience.

I would counter all of the positive endorsements for running as helpful for hill walking with 'it depends...'

Obviously, at the basic level, any running is likely to provide some benefits for all the reasons people have stated above. But, you haven't really said much about the type of running you have been doing, and this will dictate how much cross-over benefit it provides for hill walking.

If, for example, you're running 5km on flat, paved surfaces, the benefit to hill walking is probably going to be fairly small. The distance is too short, the speed is likely to be to fast, the terrain and gradient are non-representative, you are moving your legs in a very different way to your hill walking gait, you aren't carrying a heavy bag, etc.

Even if your running is long-distance hill running, it is worth thinking about how many of those differences apply. Personally, even when I have been very 'hill-running fit' I have still found myself lacking in 'hill walking fitness' -struggling going uphill with the extra weight on my back, getting sore in places that don't ache when running due to the slightly different movement, etc.

Whilst I wouldn't say that you shouldn't run, especially if you enjoy it, I would consider whether your particular type of running has good specificity for your particular type of hill walking. You might find that, from a training point of view, the time could be better spent doing weighted hill reps. Of course, weighted hill reps are horrible and running is fun, so I tend to take the lesser training benefit of running!

Anyway, I seem to be going against the general opinion of the thread, so feel free to ignore!

This.

Professional advice is always the best, and my physio said "don't stop running" when I complained about knee problems, along with exercises etc. So I did stop running, obviously, and my knees got worse, then I started running again and they got better.

E2A: cycling and running are complementary for me; I try to cycle for endurance rather than run long distances to possibly save on wear and tear. Good thread.

I didn't say it was bad for them. Just not ideal. Cycling is better for them, as is walking, IMHO.   I have pretty much stopped running down steeper slopes now, as it makes my knees ache. I still walk and climb mountains though and that does not make them ache. Just one persons experience.  

I think for some people it is.

If they have over or under pronounced arches (am I remembering this right?) then it can knacker your knees and hips.

It's manageable through wearing shoes that compensate by correcting the edge of the foot you favour. But I believe it's a common issue that a lot of people won't get professional help with.

I've never understood why they don't make corrective shoes for fell running.

Perhaps the variety in surface makes it a non issue to start with.

I don't doubt this is correct however I generally only to do exercise I enjoy (or don't dislike) unless it's very short.

I like climbing mountains but I don't want to put weeks of cycling in which I don't enjoy. And spend the money on a bike and the gear.

Something is clicking for me at the moment. I used to dislike running as I always tried too hard. I believed in the no pain no gain and I would get tired quickly and/or get injured.

By slowing right down you can really get the miles and time under your belt and it's getting a bit addictive.

Traditional thinking is that such shoes work well on flat ground, but that on rougher terrain there is no point, and trail, as well as fell shoes, are neutral. You can always add custom orthotics.

That's not quite true. Whether you need "corrective" shoes or footbeds probably depends on whether your feet have always been like that or if it has changed with age. 

I have totally flat feet, not even a hint of an arch. This has been the case my whole life and as such my knees have grown to accomodate that. I am slightly knock kneed, but when I bend my knees, the track straight forward rather than inward and I actually walk more on the outside of my feet. My shoes wear most on the front outer edges, never the inside ones. 

Footbeds or other shoes which try to "straighten" my knees and force and arch into my foot end up hurting my knees and also cause me to roll my ankles. 

I think with all of these things, if you are comfortable running or walking as you are, then don't bother trying to change it. If it is causing an issue, then have a look at whether support is needed or whether maybe more strengthening and stretching is the answer 

Interestingly, I have always found walking downhill hurts my knees, while running doesn't. The constant jolt of stopping your momentum on every step when walking is what does it for me. I run most descents for that reason. Unfortunately I dislike running in pretty much every other situation... 😆

Yes, I have always favoured a sort of flowing jog downhill. Even now, with arthritic knees heading for replacement after 50 years obsessive mountaineering and hill-going, I find it less painful than the laborious pole thing a lot of people seem to do.

As far as running as training for the hills goes, I think running on the flat is of limited value beyond very basic fitness. Running hills is much more use but doesn't come close to actually getting a sack on your back and plodding up hill. Conversely, I have never felt so strong running in the hills than after a big alpine or other mountaineering trip.

I think the problem with running up hills is you very quickly run anaerobically. At least I would. Whilst this is great for building strength and dealing with lactic acid it's not training your systems needed to do a long aerobic day. gentle cycling, slow running or walking with weight up and down hills are what you need to do to train.

I used to suffer with sore knees downhill. I think the problem I had is as my leg muscles became tired, I would lock my knee joint as it's easier to hold. The problem with this is your joint is taking all the shock load with no flex available.

By keeping your knees slightly bent down hill, you use your muscle more, likely burn more energy, get a bit more tired but you save your knees. I'm still experimenting with this, so might change my view.

Obviously you do need the basic fitness to jog slowly uphill at a pace you can maintain in order for it to be anaerobic. Just walking briskly or alternating jogging and walking ought to be just as effective.

Interesting, my knee physio encourages me to walk, at least on the flat, with knees locked straight. "Naturally" I even stand with knees slightly bent which he says is not good.

Running will generally strengthen the muscles around the knee and make the joint more resilient. Sports most likely to cause joint problems are those that involve lots quick changes of direction, particularly if feet are rooted to the ground (think football).

Does military music help with maintaining this unusual gait?

yes it does.  I always goose step uphill imagining I am turning my eyes, chin severely up, while marching, to the grand Soviet leaders on May Day.  If I'm particualrly enthused I'll wear a soviet era tank helmet too

If you need a job, I believe there are some vacancies available for soviet style military at the moment!

I can't break my oath to the Duchy of Grand Fenwick unfortunately

I guess it all depends on how you run/walk.  I take short rapid steps when traveling down steeper hills. I try to maintain the flow. It's jolting that I believe causes the pain later. Maintaining the flow work better for ne personally and I expect many people.

Interestingly I went for a walk yesterday on kit hill and was feeling good. So I ran most of it. Only 2.2 miles and under 100m of ascent/descent.   I was careful to stay off the hard track and on the softer grass.  No pain today in my knees or hips.  so a happy pensioner here.

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