Honister Zipwire goes ahead

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 wercat 07 Nov 2018

What will be the effects on roads/parking/infrastructure etc if the throughput/no of thrillseekers is too high?

1
 Wainers44 07 Nov 2018
In reply to wercat:

> What will be the effects on roads/parking/infrastructure etc if the throughput/no of thrillseekers is too high?

They might have to employ more local people?

11
 Dark-Cloud 07 Nov 2018
In reply to wercat:

I would assume the booking system will control numbers, I doubt it will be a turn up and pay affair ?

Not looked at the plans but which way does it run, from Fleetwith direction back to the visitors centre ?

 Simon Caldwell 08 Nov 2018
In reply to wercat:

Assuming that UNESCO are fine with this, what's the point of World Heritage status?

2
 wintertree 08 Nov 2018
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

> Assuming that UNESCO are fine with this, what's the point of World Heritage status?

They don’t seem to have a problem with the various cable cars and funicular type sleds up to the Great Wall in China...

Post edited at 10:08
 felt 08 Nov 2018
In reply to wintertree:

That's all very well, but you can see the Lake District from space.

Clauso 08 Nov 2018
In reply to wintertree:

> They don’t seem to have a problem with the various cable cars and funicular type sleds up to the Great Wall in China...

Great Wall is on Cloggy, Wales, rather than China. And it's known as a train, rather than a funicular sled... Hope this helps? 

 summo 08 Nov 2018
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Deforestation, over grazing, man made reservoirs, slate and copper mining.... don't think one or two steel wires 1inch thick will change or spoil anything that isn't already. 

7
In reply to wercat:

I much preferred the Thirlmere proposals that everyone got their knickers in a knot about to this. It would have had a much smaller impact on the roads and parking. 

17
 timjones 08 Nov 2018
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

> Assuming that UNESCO are fine with this, what's the point of World Heritage status?

What do you think the point of World Heritage status should be?

OP wercat 08 Nov 2018
In reply to Wainers44:

> They might have to employ more local people?


kepping the county's inhabitants in serfdom for the benefit of affluent location consumers

6
OP wercat 08 Nov 2018
In reply to Presley Whippet:

Disagree - Grisedale Forest is a much better fit imho.  Or somewhere in the vast North Pennines that equally need to keep their less intensive tourist industry going

Look at the old cableway from Great Dun Fell for instance

 Ridge 08 Nov 2018
In reply to felt:

> That's all very well, but you can see the Lake District from space.

Not usually, the almost permanent rain clouds obscure the view.

Lusk 08 Nov 2018
In reply to timjones:

> What do you think the point of World Heritage status should be?


They should ship everyone and everything out of the Lakes, close it off, and let it revert back to the wild.

Possibly?

 Simon Caldwell 08 Nov 2018
In reply to timjones:

> What do you think the point of World Heritage status should be?

Well it doesn't really matter what I think.

From what I've read, it appears that according to the rules, UNESCO should have been consulted before this development was approved, but they seem not to have been (unless it was done in secret).

But as you'd expect, the whole system is a bureaucrat's wet dream, and working pout a clear statement of what is and isn't allowed is beyond me.

 felt 08 Nov 2018
In reply to Ridge:

Now keep this one quiet, but I've been told they've got this thing that can see through clouds.

 timjones 08 Nov 2018
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

The problem with that is that it isn't exactly realistic to have to consult UNESCO on every development.

It appeared that you felt that such things should not be allowed on World Heritage sites, I'd say that you cannot fossilise the entire Lake District based on a UNESCO designation which leaves the question of what you believe is acceptable and why?

If you can run commercial rafting operation in The Grand Canyon or take groups climbing in The Lake Distrct for personal gain is this zipwire significantly different?

1
Lusk 08 Nov 2018
In reply to timjones:

These anti zip wire people are living in the 19th century when the Lakes was a fairly wild and remote place.  It just isn't any more, more like a great big theme park these days.  It's got worse just in the last 25 years or so, I remember the ODG and Wasdale Head being quite remote places. Not any more

Honister is an industrial site anyway, a zip wire is going to make bugger all difference.

3
 Simon Caldwell 08 Nov 2018
In reply to timjones:

I don't write the rules and didn't apply for the Lakes to become a World Heritage Site - from what I know about such things (which is limited) I can't see that it gives much benefit, but does (or should) impose severe restrictions. One of which is that realistic or not, they are supposed to be consulted about all developments that affect their world heritage status - but that doesn't seem to have been applied here so maybe my informant was mistaken. or maybe the rules have been broken.

 MG 08 Nov 2018
In reply to Lusk:

> Honister is an industrial site anyway, a zip wire is going to make bugger all difference.

Probably true alone but every time something like that is added, the feel and  nature of the Lakes moves a little further towards Center Parks and the precedent for the next big thing is set.  Given that the first priority of a National Park is to "Conserve and enhance the natural beauty, wildlife and cultural heritage", I'm not sure this is a good move.

2
 Wainers44 08 Nov 2018
In reply to wercat:

> kepping the county's inhabitants in serfdom for the benefit of affluent location consumers

Eh?

So better to get back to a rosy coloured time when the locals were just sent to the quarry or mine to die before they were 30? Is that what you mean?

The affluent location consumers I have taken to Honister have mainly been Scouts. None of the people working there gave the impression they felt they were in serfdom?

 Jon Stewart 08 Nov 2018
In reply to summo:

> Deforestation, over grazing, man made reservoirs, slate and copper mining.... don't think one or two steel wires 1inch thick will change or spoil anything that isn't already. 

I like all of those things.

2
 Ridge 08 Nov 2018
In reply to felt:

> Now keep this one quiet, but I've been told they've got this thing that can see through clouds.

Witchcraft!

 Jon Stewart 08 Nov 2018
In reply to Presley Whippet:

> I much preferred the Thirlmere proposals that everyone got their knickers in a knot about to this.

I got my knickers in a twist about it because I regularly enjoy the thirlmere valley, and didn't particularly want to see the death of raven crag, which is an awesome crag. Honister is just a setting off point for more distant crags, and I can't see this having much impact on my enjoyment of the place, unlike at thirlmere. 

> It would have had a much smaller impact on the roads and parking. 

On what basis? 

1
In reply to MG:

Local Cumberland family does well against the establishment green blob despite losing their leading light. Good luck to them, it's a site of industrial archaeology that has been tidied up and put to a fair use and still produces slate, as when my ancestors worked there.
Only place in LD where a wire could be aceptable.
Well done Honister!
Good Luck to the Weirs.
DC

6
 Rob Parsons 08 Nov 2018
In reply to Lusk:

> ... It's got worse just in the last 25 years or so, I remember the ODG and Wasdale Head being quite remote places. Not any more

I don't understand your point.: access to those two places has not changed 'in the last 25 years or so' - they're as remote (or not) now as they were then.

 

 

 timjones 08 Nov 2018
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Does a zipwire affect their world heritage status, what are the criteria for developments that UNESCO should be consulted about?

I can see that a new motorway or major housing development would require consultation but surely not a simple zipwire on an old quarry site?

In reply to Jon Stewart:

The basis of my traffic comment is using the A591 to access Thirlmere, vs using Honister pass to access the slate mine. Single track, steep mountain pass vs A road. 

 Jon Stewart 08 Nov 2018
In reply to Lusk:

> I remember the ODG and Wasdale Head being quite remote places. Not any more

Oh come on. There are more cars (but it's still fine to park) and that's it. There's some walkers around on the fells. Really worth moaning about? 

 Jon Stewart 08 Nov 2018
In reply to Presley Whippet:

> The basis of my traffic comment is using the A591 to access Thirlmere, vs using Honister pass to access the slate mine. Single track, steep mountain pass vs A road. 

But what's the capacity of the zip wire? What is the likely impact?

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Unknown to me but clearly more easily absorbed by the 591.

 Andy Johnson 08 Nov 2018
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> I don't understand your point.: access to those two places has not changed 'in the last 25 years or so' - they're as remote (or not) now as they were then.

I suspect TbF might be referring to all those other people who go there nowadays.

Post edited at 14:04
 n-stacey 08 Nov 2018
In reply to Wainers44:

I worked I the mines and I'm now 52, does that mean my days are numbered?? (gulp)

 wintertree 08 Nov 2018
In reply to wercat:

> Or somewhere in the vast North Pennines that equally need to keep their less intensive tourist industry going

The first rule of the North Pennine Club is not to tell anyone about the North Pennine Club...

You could get an awesome zip line in the mile long quarry on the northern edge of Stanhope.  You could have a coaster down from Parkhead station into the same quarry - it would shoot over the edge onto an elevated track 50 meters high near Crawleyside then bank sharp left descending in to the quarry.

If the punters got carried away screaming it might drown out the legions of motorbikes who confuse the Durham dales with the Isle of Man...

 

 Wainers44 08 Nov 2018
In reply to n-stacey:

> I worked I the mines and I'm now 52, does that mean my days are numbered?? (gulp)

Nope, it just means you are "special"  

OP wercat 08 Nov 2018
In reply to wintertree:

Is that the one that runs from Crawleyside to the East?  Used to jump over the garden wall and do all my radio experiments there as a kid.  My sister showed newts and toads to David Bellamy in the pools below the cliffs

Parts had to be scavenged from the tip above the dene to the W

Post edited at 17:33
 wintertree 08 Nov 2018
In reply to wercat:

That’s the one.  It’s worth a look in autumn - trees have colonised the north face near the top and give it a surreal autumn look.

The tip I suspect is long gone!  Or buried...  

 CasWebb 08 Nov 2018
In reply to Presley Whippet:

An A road with a pretty bad accident record vs a minor road with very few accidents.

 bouldery bits 08 Nov 2018
In reply to wercat:

I'd prefer a death slide. 

 fred99 09 Nov 2018
In reply to CasWebb:

> An A road with a pretty bad accident record vs a minor road with very few accidents.


Just wait until the type of people who go to the zipwire start driving that road, I'm sure the accident (and road rage) numbers will go up and up.

2
 felt 09 Nov 2018
In reply to fred99:

Yes, it's about time zipwire users were singled out as a group and stereotyped, they've had it easy for far too long.

 oldie 09 Nov 2018
In reply to timjones:

> Assuming that UNESCO are fine with this, what's the point of World Heritage status? <

The threat of loss of World Heritage status for the Jurassic Coast was probably an important factor in the rejection of a large wind farm between Isle of Wight and Portland, especially with tourism in mind.

Post edited at 13:58
 Rob Parsons 09 Nov 2018
In reply to oldie:

> The threat of loss of World Heritage status for the Jurassic Coast was probably an important factor in the rejection of a large wind farm between Isle of Wight and Portland, especially with tourism in mind.


To paraphrase Simon Caldwell's original question, and to be deliberately provocative, what would it matter if the Jurassic Coast lost its World Heritage status? That is: what's the point of World Heritage status?

Presumably, people come to the Jurassic Coast for what it is, rather than because it has a 'World Heritage' label attached to it.

 summo 09 Nov 2018
In reply to oldie:

> The threat of loss of World Heritage status for the Jurassic Coast was probably an important factor in the rejection of a large wind farm between Isle of Wight and Portland, especially with tourism in mind.

The Jurassic coast is a natural feature, full of fossils of creatures that millions of years ago.

The lake district is an area of land that has been deforested, over grazed, mined and flooded by man in the last few hundred years. 

The two locations just aren't comparable. 

 MG 09 Nov 2018
In reply to summo:

Heritage doesn't imply natural, it includes man-made.  The fact is, millions of people appreciate and enjoy the lakes much as they are.  Introducing zipwires and such like will, incrementally, change things, so its reasonable to be cautious.

 Wainers44 09 Nov 2018
In reply to MG:

> Heritage doesn't imply natural, it includes man-made.  The fact is, millions of people appreciate and enjoy the lakes much as they are.  Introducing zipwires and such like will, incrementally, change things, so its reasonable to be cautious.

I get the need for caution to protect somewhere so beautiful and so precious.

However the context is so important here. The quarry is more obviously man made than the over grazed fells and with the other structures etc already this is not a place of peace and quiet. The owners need to renew and refresh their offer to visitors or they will have no business. Residents need jobs and depend on businesses like Honister to provide them. 

I think this is a good decision and its the right sort of development in the right place. The planners should be criticised for many recent decisions but not this one IMHO. 

 

1
 oldie 09 Nov 2018
In reply to Rob Parsons:

>  That is: what's the point of World Heritage status? <

> Presumably, people come to the Jurassic Coast for what it is, rather than because it has a 'World Heritage' label attached to it. <

I'd still guess that the label could be a factor in increasing tourism, especially with foreign visitors, though I don't know of any actual evidence. Potential loss of WH status was certainly a factor used by the campaign and in the local press against the large wind farm which was ultimately successful,

Post edited at 16:29

In reply to

This is becoming a class thing. 

How dare the proles come to enjoy my lake district, they don't wear tweed or ride with the hunt? 

 

6
 Wainers44 09 Nov 2018
In reply to Presley Whippet:

> In reply to

> This is becoming a class thing. 

> How dare the proles come to enjoy my lake district, they don't wear tweed or ride with the hunt? 

Is a Prole from Proland? 

In reply to Presley Whippet:

> This is becoming a class thing. How dare the proles come to enjoy my lake district, they don't wear tweed or ride with the hunt? 

I can't see why enjoyment the fells for some of the most beautiful and peaceful scenery in England has anything to do with class. However you seem to be implying that only people of a certain class will want to pay to go on a zip wire?

 

In reply to Dave Cumberland:

> Only place in LD where a wire could be aceptable.

Sadly, now this one has got through, I foresee a mass of similar applications all citing the Honister zip-wire as a good reason why theirs should be granted. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Thirlmere plan doesn't reappear in a slightly changed format.

 

1
In reply to Cumbrian Climber:

> . I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Thirlmere plan doesn't reappear in a slightly changed format.

I agree, but Thirlmere is 100% wrong for that kind of activity, whereas Honister is perfect.

DC

 

In reply to Dave Cumberland:

75‰ perfect, I agree with your sentiments re the Wiers being the right people for the job, aesthetically, Honister is suitable. It falls down terribly when it comes to access. 

 pec 10 Nov 2018
In reply to wercat:

As an aside, how did they get this one past the planners? The plans for Honister were rejected quite a few years ago, what has changed for them to be accepted this time?

 Dell 10 Nov 2018
In reply to pec:

> As an aside, how did they get this one past the planners? The plans for Honister were rejected quite a few years ago, what has changed for them to be accepted this time?

Perhaps the NIMBYs were too busy protesting the Thirlmere one to notice the second application? 

 pec 10 Nov 2018
In reply to Dell:

> Perhaps the NIMBYs were too busy protesting the Thirlmere one to notice the second application? 


Perhaps, but that doesn't answer my question.

In reply to wercat:

If previous human destruction and increasing footfall are good reasons to have screaming children hurtling down a giant cable from one of the most tranquil places in the world, let's just bolt every trad venue in the UK and be done with it. 

8
In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

Next time you visit a crag, listen carefully and then please explain how all the whoops of joy, warchme watchme f&ck f&ck f&ck sh1t sh1t take take, climb when ready tarquin I said climb when ready tarquin. CLIMB WHEN READY DEAFLUGS is any different to the screams you complain about. 

 

4
In reply to Presley Whippet:

If you've ever been to a theme park you should know that the people on these rides like to scream for the sake of screaming. I'd imagine a well booked zip line would provide routine and constant screaming over the pass. 

If the people you climb with are anything like that, frankly I'd be a bit embarrassed. 

1
In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

And there is the class thing I mentioned earlier again. 

4
 wintertree 11 Nov 2018
In reply to Presley Whippet:

> And there is the class thing I mentioned earlier again. 

Now be fair, being a thoughtless tw*t is nothing to do with class.

 Root1 11 Nov 2018
In reply to Lusk:

> Honister is an industrial site anyway, a zip wire is going to make bugger all difference.

Yes but its heading in the wrong direction, we should be improving the landscape not slowly degrading it. 

Borrowdale, the most beautiful valley in Britain in one year gets a zip wire and a huge new development in the shape of the Lordore Swiss hotel extension. At this rate it will be like Benidorm in a few years time.

1
 Rob Parsons 11 Nov 2018
In reply to pec:

> As an aside, how did they get this one past the planners? The plans for Honister were rejected quite a few years ago, what has changed for them to be accepted this time?

There were certainly objections to the current scheme, and in fact, according to the Beeb, 'Planning officers had recommended the plan at Honister Slate Mine be refused due to the impact on the landscape.'

Quoting from the Lake District National Park Authority's planning committee's pages on the web (go to http://www.lakedistrict.gov.uk/planning/applicationsanddecisions/planning_d...), the decision was finally made as follows:

"In this case the identified landscape and visual effects are outweighed by the benefits:

o for visitors, in particular disabled people and young people

o to the slate extraction and tourism business at Honister

o by supporting the local economy

o supplying traditional building stone for the benefit of the built heritage of the Lake District

o as a continuation of local industrial heritage"

The references to 'slate extraction' and 'supplying traditional building stone' come about because the current scheme has been presented as 'dual use': the claim is it will be a zipline for people at some times of the year, and a working line for moving quarried slate about at other times. We'll have to see how that turns out in reality.

Post edited at 11:27
OP wercat 11 Nov 2018
In reply to Rob Parsons:

if it is as dishonest as the Shenanegans and fibs told to get Rheged through and subsequently shoppingly expanded on the grounds that the proposal that was sufficiently low impact and non commercial to have been permitted was not sustainable as a business then I wouldn't hold out any hope.

That heralded a new era of traffic jams at J40 that tail back beyond the Rheged junction and that is on somewhat more developed roads than Borrowdale.

Post edited at 16:24
3
Lusk 11 Nov 2018
In reply to wintertree:

> Now be fair, being a thoughtless tw*t is nothing to do with class.


Yeah, but being a snob and tw*t seem to be closely related these days on UKC.
I've noticed some hardcore snobs revealing themselves recently.

1
 felt 11 Nov 2018
In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

> If you've ever been to a theme park you should know that the people on these rides like to scream for the sake of screaming. I'd imagine a well booked zip line would provide routine and constant screaming over the pass. 

Went to Grizedale Forest with the kids over school half-term; the zip wire near the visitor centre was pretty busy and I didn't hear a single scream, just a rather pleasant swooshing sound now and again.

That said, I'm dead against the proposal. Seems inappropriate in the setting. 

 Dave Ferguson 11 Nov 2018
In reply to Root1:

> Borrowdale, the most beautiful valley in Britain in one year gets a zip wire and a huge new development in the shape of the Lordore Swiss hotel extension. At this rate it will be like Benidorm in a few years time.

Are we going to get cheap beer, Elvis tribute acts and strip clubs in Borrowdale? - bring it on!

 

 pec 11 Nov 2018
In reply to Rob Parsons:

Thanks for the informed response.

Personally I don't see how the bullet points you listed outweigh the negatives this time round if they didn't last time so it would appear to hinge on your last paragraph about dual use (obviously I realise you're just reporting what the descision was, I'm not shooting the messenger).

I seem to recall one bone of contention with the original plan was that it crossed open fellside, is this no longer the case?

 cousin nick 12 Nov 2018
In reply to wercat:

My two penneth is that its just another incremental development of the 'Lake District Themepark'. Whether you're a walker, climber, paddler, MTBer, skinny dipper or a bus tourist the themepark has something for you and it supports the local tourist economy.

My wife's family are based in the South Lakes and undoubtedly benefit from themepark-related income.

My home is in Cornwall, which is another themepark and again the local economy is almost entirely dependent on tourism.

Both areas have similar issues - they need the income to survive, albeit low paid seasonal jobs for the locals. The seasonal influx of tourists puts all local infrastructure (roads, parking, even sewerage systems!) under enormous strain, and the natural environment undoubtedly suffers (erosion, litter etc.).

So, there lies the (to me) unresolvable problem: balance economic 'wants' with human impacts. For so long as both exist the problem will remain and everyone will have an opinion. Chuck in some local politics for good measure, and stir!

I like the Lakes, and I also like Cornwall, but there are other places too, if you don't like themeparks.

N

OP wercat 12 Nov 2018
In reply to cousin nick:

To those who call it a chance for employment I would say that Cumbria like some other areas is a rather poor relation even to near neighbours like the North East when it comes to hard investment, infrastructure development and chances for decent, non-tourist jobs in reasonable tech industries (with a few notable exceptions).  Going to Newcastle-Gateshead-Sunderland is like going into another century when you see the transport infrastructure and level of investment.

I don't disagree with the idea entirely but there are places where road access is better for high density tourist activity and also areas where there is more space to absorb visitors.

 

 Ridge 12 Nov 2018
In reply to wercat:

> That heralded a new era of traffic jams at J40 that tail back beyond the Rheged junction and that is on somewhat more developed roads than Borrowdale.

Really? I think that's due to the poor phasing of the lights at J40 rather than anything else. I could be wrong, but I've never seen a tailback of traffic caused by vehicles accessing Rheged. TBH whenever I've been caught in that tailback, (I avoid J40 as much as possible), I've only seen the odd car heading to Rheged for petrol.


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