F-15 x 2 crash on Ben Macdui, March 2001

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 mjsc 12 Mar 2021

Hello,

I knew of the above incident pretty much since the month it occurred way back in 2001. I never had any interest in hillwalking back then but come 2020 have found myself out and about in the Cairngorms as well as amongst other mountains. Whilst climbing Carn a' Mhaim and Ben Macdui in October 2020 thoughts of this incident came back to me.

The sheer size and state of the ground around Ben Macdui meant any cursory exploring of the area for the actual crash site would be futile. I also understand the area where both aircraft impacted with the ground was thoroughly cleaned up afterwards.

Do any members know where exactly, with grid refs, both aircraft impacted ? Do any members have any information about their own personal experience of the incident - assuming they were there the day it occurred or in the area thereafter - that they would be willing to share ?

The idea that 2 multi million dollar aircraft, with all the onboard and offboard high tech support systems surrounding them did then come to grief in one of Scotland's most desolate areas is perplexing. Perhaps though we should expect little more of an area which demands respect 12 months of the year... 

Thanks for your comments.

Post edited at 21:37
Removed User 12 Mar 2021
In reply to mjsc:

Nah, planes fly into hills all the time.

Thirty years ago an F1-11 flew into Craignaw in Galloway. The site resembles a small quarry with a plaque beside it.

 MG 12 Mar 2021
In reply to Removed User:

There's dozens in the Peak District, though none since the 1950s, I think.

 Tom Valentine 12 Mar 2021
In reply to MG:

I'm pretty sure a Hawker Hunter  crashed into the moors south of Langsett in the 1980s. 

Edit : just checked and it was 1993, Broomhead Moor and a privately owned jet

Post edited at 22:00
 MG 12 Mar 2021
In reply to Tom Valentine:

Didn't know that!

 dmhigg 12 Mar 2021
In reply to mjsc:

We skied past the site on the 10th April on the way over to Corrour. It was a minging day so we couldn't see much, but there was keep out tape (I think) around just North of the col on top of the Tailor's burn descent. We were there about two weeks after the crash, but the smell of fuel was still powerful, even on a breezy Cairngorm day. There had been enough "keep away" publicity in the previous weeks to make us think that we might have been stopped travelling that way.

Removed User 12 Mar 2021
In reply to MG:

> There's dozens in the Peak District, though none since the 1950s, I think.

A mile away from that F1-11 there's the remains of a single engine plane crash. Two bookies flying to Ayr races in the early sixties. A mile further on are bits of a German bomber on the shore of Loch Enoch.

Above Lochgoilhead there's the remains of a WWII Marauder (I think). On Arran there's a US bomber beneath the start of a gully and there's a British bomber near Ben Mor Assynt. 

I guess none of those had radar though. The later US ones did but they were trying to fly at many hundreds of miles an hour in zero visibility a couple of hundred feet above the ground relying on terrain following radar.

Removed User 12 Mar 2021
 streapadair 12 Mar 2021
In reply to mjsc:

Late 80s, a US fighter jet (forget the designation) hit Sgurr na Stri. Gave the 3 guys staying at Camasunary an interesting night. 

 Myfyr Tomos 12 Mar 2021
In reply to mjsc:

A most interesting and well researched book on the subject is "Whensoever" by Frank Card. It documents the history of the RAF Mountain Rescue Service from 1943 to 1993 - a really good read. For Welsh aircraft crashes, the books by Edward Doylerush are hard to beat. No Landing Place, No Landing Place 2, Fallen Eagles and Rocks in the Clouds. Hard to find a mountain in Snowdonia "without" an aircraft crash site.

Eddie Doylerush died on the 15th February this year aged 92.

 Myr 12 Mar 2021
In reply to mjsc:

> I also understand the area where both aircraft impacted with the ground was thoroughly cleaned up afterwards.

I think the removal of fuel was made easier by the deep snow - they were able to excavate the contaminated snow and remove it from the site. 

There is probably still a fair bit of wreckage out there though - I've come across two pieces in the Garbh Uisge Mor area in recent years without searching.

In reply to mjsc:

There's loads in the lakes, the best known is maybe the Halifax bomber that crashed on Swirl how. Engine blocks and undercarriage still up there.

I came across some wreckage on slightside a few years ago, bits of what appeared to be a cockpit canopy among other things. After some googling it turned out to be the site of 2 Hurricanes which crashed shortly after WW2. One of the pilot's was a battle of Britain Ace, to live through that and then fly into the side of a mountain is a sad end.

Fascinating how some random wreckage in the hills can connect you with history though. 

 dmhigg 13 Mar 2021
In reply to Myr:

> I think the removal of fuel was made easier by the deep snow - they were able to excavate the contaminated snow and remove it from the site. 

I've always wondered how they did this. We passed well South of the site a fortnight afterwards and even upwind on a windy day we could still smell the fuel. Did they remove it all, and where did they take it?

 pete3685 13 Mar 2021
In reply to mjsc:

Sadly when aircraft are flying at high speed, mistakes can prove costly, despite all the technology, as in this case. It may be worth contacting Heavy Whalley (don't think he's on here), as he has an interest in aircraft crashes in the hills, as he was part of RAF Mountain Rescue for a long time and has kept many records.

Coincidentally, tomorrow (Sunday) marks the 70th Anniversary of the Lancaster crash on Beinn Eighe (mentioned elsewhere on this thread). This is the subject of Heavy's latest post on his Blog:

https://heavywhalley.wordpress.com/2021/03/13/38412/?fbclid=IwAR3FIFnCww5XB...

Post edited at 08:17
 smally 13 Mar 2021
In reply to dmhigg:

I remember watching the salvage operation while up on the plateau, there was a large base camp of portacabins and shipping containers serviced by helicopter. Not a quiet operation, what with the snowmobiles they were riding around on. It was a very surreal sight.

The contaminated snow was being dug out and flown in bulk bags down to Braemar for processing. I believe there was a good day rate for snow shovelling with heli-skiing perks!

Post edited at 09:27
 Lankyman 13 Mar 2021
In reply to paul_the_northerner:

> There's loads in the lakes, the best known is maybe the Halifax bomber that crashed on Swirl how. Engine blocks and undercarriage still up there.

> I came across some wreckage on slightside a few years ago, bits of what appeared to be a cockpit canopy among other things. After some googling it turned out to be the site of 2 Hurricanes which crashed shortly after WW2. One of the pilot's was a battle of Britain Ace, to live through that and then fly into the side of a mountain is a sad end.

> Fascinating how some random wreckage in the hills can connect you with history though. 

I think I also stumbled across bits of that Hurricane a couple of years ago. On the side of  Broad Crag I also encountered quite large parts of another aircraft which I think crashed in 1946/7.

 crustypunkuk 13 Mar 2021
In reply to mjsc:

The 2 f-15s involved in that were dog fighting each other above aviemore in the minutes before they came down. If I recall correctly the cause was recorded as pilot error.

Having witnessed some of the low flying the pilots practice in the laraig ghru, its fair to say there's a very small margin for error. 

There's sadly a long history of air crash around the area. I've found wreckage of a Wellington and a fairy firefly on braeriach,  the remains of a Canberra (which apparently crashed with nukes on board) and another ww2 era prop plane in Glenshee, and a few more littered around the hills. It amazes me how well preserved some of the wreckage is.

I can't remember exactly when, but prior to the 80s all air wreckage was left in situ with only weapons and bodies removed. Since the advent of the jet age, all wreckage is now removed completely. Hence why there is no sign of the impact left on Ben macdui. 

 DerwentDiluted 13 Mar 2021
In reply to mjsc:

One of the saddest for me is the B24 Liberator crash at Fairy Lochs near Gairloch. 15 service personnel flying home back to the US, clipped the summit of Slioch and crashed a few miles further on. Those last few minutes on board are awful to contemplate.

Theres also the Halifax(? - from memory) at Slipstones.  

Post edited at 09:57
 wercat 13 Mar 2021
In reply to dmhigg:

Judging by the response here when the 2 seater Hawk hit the railway bridge in Shap the keep out tape was probably for H&S as well as anything else.  The teams cleaning up afterwards were there for a long time because of the hazardous nature of the tiny debris (composites/carbon fibre).

We have friends in Shap whose son was driving to the village from the N at the time - the impact with the bridge happened in front of his eyes

 OwenM 13 Mar 2021
In reply to mjsc:

There's a large piece of a Harrier, I think, on Carn an t-Sagart Beag above Lochnagar.

 aln 13 Mar 2021
In reply to Removed User:

One on Meikle Bin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meikle_Bin I think at one time there was a lot more wreckage, but it was dismantled by souvenir hunters over the years. 

 coldfell 13 Mar 2021
In reply to mjsc:

Yes we walked the Carn a Mhaim, Ben Macdui and Derry Cairngorm horseshoe within a day or two of the crash. There were some signs warning not to pick up any debris, and tape round some impact areas. We looked at some of the debris respectfully and it was a memorable walk especially for my teenage son.

 Bob Kemp 13 Mar 2021
In reply to pete3685:

There was a piece about the Ben Eighe crash and its impact on Scottish mountain rescue in the Scotsman yesterday:

https://www.scotsman.com/heritage-and-retro/heritage/how-beinn-eighe-traged...

 alan moore 13 Mar 2021
In reply to mjsc:

Aircrashsites.co.uk has a pretty big archive for this kind of thing.

 alan moore 13 Mar 2021
In reply to mjsc:

Aircrashsites.co.uk has a pretty big archive for this kind of thing.

 dmhigg 13 Mar 2021
In reply to wercat:

> We have friends in Shap whose son was driving to the village from the N at the time - the impact with the bridge happened in front of his eyes

Wow. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

 ExiledScot 13 Mar 2021
In reply to crustypunkuk:

The two f15s weren't dog fighting they were on a test flight with long range fuel pods on their wings, flying in formation  with one slightly rearward and to the side of the other.

They skimmed, literally, at the col 997987, then likely tumbled and disintegrated northwards over about 400m. Had they been just 10m higher they'd have likely just had the fright of their lives. 

The wreckage was removed and fuel contaminated snow because it's classed as industrial or hazardous wreckage, and the land belongs to the rspb with protected status. 

 crustypunkuk 13 Mar 2021
In reply to ExiledScot:

Having seen them a minute or so before they came down, I can assure you that they were toying with each other in dog fight type manoeuvres before heading to their end.

Not the ultimate cause of their downing, but there were definitely shenanigans afoot in the minutes beforehand. 

Post edited at 12:30
2
 ExiledScot 13 Mar 2021
In reply to crustypunkuk:

> Having seen them a minute or so before they came down, I can assure you that they were toying with each other in dog fight type manoeuvres before heading to their end.

You'd need to be in Braemar, not Aviemore to have seen them a minute before. There were tornados flying a different mission in the area too. Most upland areas have designated low flying routes, they are also directional, mid Wales, ogwen, lakes... have them too. So they aren't able to go against the flow etc.. 

> Not the ultimate cause of their downing, but there were definitely shenanigans afoot in the minutes beforehand. 

We'll agree to differ, but I'll link what's already been linked https://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-210872.html

If they were on a low level dog fight training mission they would have assumed responsibility for terrain avoidance, they didn't, they delegated to ATC as is more normal on non low level straight line flying, where differing errors / assumptions were made in communication between them regarding flying at 3000 & 4000ft, not 6500ft.

 ExiledScot 13 Mar 2021
In reply to wercat:

> We have friends in Shap whose son was driving to the village from the N at the time - the impact with the bridge happened in front of his eyes

Not the van driver? He was both extremely lucky and unlucky! Brown pants moment. 

 Lrunner 13 Mar 2021
In reply to mjsc:

I know Braemar mountain rescue team had a lot to do with it . I know that some of the folks who looked after the scene  got flown up each day and skied down. 

I'd write to them if you are interested. They might have a journal of rescues you could dig out

Post edited at 14:08
 wercat 13 Mar 2021
In reply to ExiledScot:

not the one on the bridge fortunately - He was close to where the speed limit goes from 40 to 30 before the bridge - must have been unbelievable

 PaulN 13 Mar 2021
In reply to mjsc:

hello, I had a fair bit to do with it. Initially as part of the team, then daily checking slope stability around the plane that was in the North top. Lastly I was given the task of removing contaminated snow from both sites. As it was foot and mouth year a lot of guides/instructors did not have work (like now!) so I invited them to come work up the hill. Originally the RAF wanted the Marines to do this work but the estates felt outdoor people may be more sensitive to the environment. There were lots of groups involved. I worked with briggs Marine and SEPA quite a bit. Under their guidance we put pollution booms over every potential river course in the area, including Loch Avon. ExiledScot is bob on about what happened and where they crashed. These aircraft had no forward radar. Braemar Mountain Rescue have a book available, Mostly Happy Returns, there are photos of the site in there. There was an article in High magazine by an RAF team leader but it had some inaccuracies from memory. I can say the USAF were prepared to do anything to clean the site. The crash and smash guys went back after the snow was gone to check the site. I believe there has been a number environmental checks have been done since. We worked on the site till June. Incidentally there was previously an older helicopter crash on the other side of Ben Macdui the wind has moved some of this and you can still find pieces of this all around the hill.

OP mjsc 13 Mar 2021
In reply to ExiledScot:

That grid ref helps me frame the impact area... thank you.

 Mark Bull 14 Mar 2021
In reply to mjsc:

We went up Macdui from the north a few weeks after the crash. I remember seeing the encampment, and there was a bloke on a snowmobile politely discouraging anyone from venturing SE of the summit. 

It appears that there may also be some bits of wreckage related to the nearby 1942 Anson crash site in the vicinity of where the F-15s went down: http://www.yorkshire-aircraft.co.uk/aircraft/scotland/dj106.html

 wercat 14 Mar 2021
In reply to Mark Bull:

yes - I've seen the Anson wreckage engine bits,and I think perhaps an oxygen bottle

 Billhook 15 Mar 2021
In reply to mjsc:

http://www.yorkshire-aircraft.co.uk  including some other areas.  I'm sure there are plenty of other similar websites for the whole of the UK.


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