Cairngorm Mountain development report

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 Andy Johnson 07 Nov 2018

http://news.hie.co.uk/all-news/report-outlines-27m-vision-for-cairngorm/

New report an development options released today. The "highlights" include:

  • "constructing two new chairlifts out of the Coire Cas base area; one with a 3,200 people per hour (pph) lift capacity and a second with 3,000 pph."
  • "snowmaking technology could create an additional 30 hectares of skiing area"
  • "To boost the resort’s appeal and revenue during summer months, consultants have recommended a mountain coaster, a zipline tour and a lift-served mountain biking experience."

More at http://www.hie.co.uk/regional-information/area-information/inner-moray-firt...

 

Post edited at 12:55
 subtle 07 Nov 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

ahahahahahaha - what a farce

 

lets rip out the existing tows/lifts, in the knowledge that the furnicular has problems, do nothing about it for a year and when it gets closed lets get funding to install two new chairlifts to take skiers to the slopes

mis-management at best, and at what cost to local business and community

 

 

 

1
 girlymonkey 07 Nov 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

"To boost the resort’s appeal and revenue during summer months, consultants have recommended a mountain coaster, a zipline tour and a lift-served mountain biking experience

 

Sounds wonderful, can't wait....

In reply to Andy Johnson:

> a zipline tour 

Does it go from point 1141m directly to the car park?  

 

 PeterM 07 Nov 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

Cairngorm Mountain Ltd has disappeared from FB. The coaster and Zip I could live without. The MB tracks I feel should be phase 1 not 2. Maybe swap with the coaster and Zip. HIE and CML have thoroughly fuked the management of Cairngorm. Not sure what planning consents will be like as the proposed artificial ski slope was rejected in what looks to be a similar area to the coaster. Scotland seems intent on ruining, or at least mis-managing, its natural heritage.

OP Andy Johnson 07 Nov 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

Looks like they basically want to create a copy of Nevis Range, but in the middle of the national park. Horrible.

Post edited at 13:55
1
 wintertree 07 Nov 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

A mountain coaster would be amazing.  I’m willing to overlook my default “not in anyone’s back yard” approach to building on our mountains for that.  It should definitely run right the way in to Aviemore stopping by the curry house.

2
 Simon Caldwell 07 Nov 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

Wasn't it a condition of the original development that there should not be any lift-served mountain biking?

Removed User 07 Nov 2018
In reply to Harrison_Connie:

>  Does it go from point 1141m directly to the car park?

There's days when I'd have been tempted...

In reply to Removed UserBwox:

> There's days when I'd have been tempted...

You and me both.

Removed User 07 Nov 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

If it's such a no-brainer scheme then let private enterprise fund it instead of pouring more public money into a development than has already swallowed considerable amount of tax pounds. 

 Snowdave 07 Nov 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

Big thread on this on winterhighland forum...& its actually best to watch the video of the plans on youtube just in case it disappears.

youtube.com/watch?v=z4fypwKfLbY&

 

BTW report (apparently cost HIE £80k) was done before they announced the closure of the funicular....& that will cost a few million to fix...

 

1
 Doug 07 Nov 2018
In reply to Snowdave:

So no uplift in Coire Cas, and some of that video is clearly not Cairngorm. Wonder how much the video cost ?

 Snowdave 07 Nov 2018
In reply to Doug:

> So no uplift in Coire Cas, and some of that video is clearly not Cairngorm. Wonder how much the video cost ?

 

Coire Cas will be replaced totally with one fast 6 seater chair from carpark to just under the nice avalanche prone wall at the top right (west) of the basin under Fiacall Ridge..further up & right of existing top t-bar.

 

There will also be another one running from mid station to above the Marquis well area...basically follow M1 poma then straight across steepest windiest part of Traverse & across the Coronation Wall & higher than the half pipe area they make above the top t-bar...

 

So removing:- Car park t-bar, Cas t-bar, M1 poma, Fiacall ridge poma...only leaving the sunkid tow...

1
 Doug 07 Nov 2018
In reply to Snowdave:

Oops, meant to say no uplift in Coire na Ciste...

but I do wonder if these so called experts have ever spent more than a few minutes on Cairngorm

 Snowdave 07 Nov 2018
In reply to Doug:

> Oops, meant to say no uplift in Coire na Ciste…

This is HIE come on FFS!!!..

 

That's way too sensible an actual requirement to consider uplift where they used to have it, & that would reduce strain on the main basin?...

 

 daWalt 07 Nov 2018
In reply to Snowdave:

6 person chair?... fine, but looks like the same mistake again: removing uplift that doesn't need to be removed and switching to another single source of mass uplift.

I think I might even agree with Doug, partially . They may have visited the mountain but have they experienced actuality of trying to ski there?

it would surely be better to replace the tows that don't actually clash with the new chair in order to spread the load around on the upper part. It'll be a total pain in the mild seasons when the bottom station is below the snow-line.

 summo 08 Nov 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

Plan for the climate of 20 years time, large lift all the way down to the forest, over the sugar bowl and have some of the best and longest mtb runs in the UK. 

All this national park nonsense, the environment there is wrecked already, better to start fresh and plan for the future. Clean the hillside first. Then have less skiing, more other activities that need less infrastructure on the hill and can probably run for 9mths of the year. 

3
 Snowdave 09 Nov 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

 

Went to the Community trust meeting last night at the Cairngorm Hotel...

 

Big turn out.....huge discussions….numerous points & a the makings of light at the end of the tunnel..& no its not a train coming the other way...

 

All acknowledge the report is the right ideas..but the exact position of ideas needs altering....majority of people would like to see uplift from the Ciste...it was pointed out that to achieve the HIE skier day/uplift requirement from the Cas is undoable as it far exceeds the busiest day with the Ciste carpark & road full in its current state...

 

maintenance crew blokes were there & stated that over the past 5yrs they have effectively rebuilt the three tows which are set for removal in the HIE report...so they can last longer..so spend the money expanding elsewhere....

 

The Trust also had its additional proposal for small hydro schemes to basically provide income to offset the elect costs of the snow factories...& the wan to tidy up the whole car/park/base station area & etc..etc.

 

Basic common sense stuff.....& apparently tey have spend ages talking/meeting with NR & HIE...getting somewhere with HIE......one suspects that is due to NR ballsing up & HIE might have finally realised that they FUBAR'd thinks by giving the contract to NR...

 

As HIE own the land etc buying out the whole lot from HIE which is a gov agency looks very difficult & telling HIE to get stuffed also a bad idea....HIE can get the grants/Gov funding which any community trust will need access to run & improve CGM.

 

SO all in all...good night & things look as if they will get sorted....

 subtle 09 Nov 2018
In reply to Snowdave:

Thanks for the feedback - lets hope the light at the end of the tunnel does not go out

Mainly positives in your summary, fingers crossed action does take place  - it needs to

My only worry is when did agencies ever listen to common sense?

 Robert Durran 09 Nov 2018
In reply to summo:

> All this national park nonsense, the environment there is wrecked already

It could recover, given time.

> Clean the hillside first.

And then just leave it that way.

OP Andy Johnson 09 Nov 2018
In reply to Snowdave:

Any discussion of sustainable tourism or landscape protection?

 summo 09 Nov 2018
In reply to Robert Durran:

> It could recover, given time.

Yeah. A few centuries and there could be ancient Caledonian forest right up above car park height. A single large capacity cable car from around the loch up to the summit cafe, with no man made stuff between. Roads, fences, buildings etc all gone. Then just footpaths and bike trails down through the forest. 

> > Clean the hillside first.

> And then just leave it that way.

As above. With the current climate trend investing in winter sports isn't entirely logical. 

Post edited at 11:21
 Snowdave 09 Nov 2018
In reply to subtle:

>

> My only worry is when did agencies ever listen to common sense?

 

Still at the back of many peoples minds...

 

However HIE remit is as an enterprise & jobs creation gov agency...the current situation at CGML with NR throwing the baby out with the bath water so to speak & loads of job losses.....basically goes 100% against the remit of HIE

 

HIE are being shown up ...they have to save face..apparently various MSP are also getting involved...so the Scottish Gov can pressure HIE 

 Snowdave 09 Nov 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

> Any discussion of sustainable tourism or landscape protection?

That was high in the "tidy up the hillside" list..

 

they have been talking extensively with SNH/FC/RSPB/ etc etc....& have basically stated what would you like use to do to be able to put "x" ideas on the hill..

 

They want to get the hydro power, etc to reduce the electricity they have to buy...& the dry slope (which HC kick out) will not be visited ever...

 

 Robert Durran 09 Nov 2018
In reply to summo:

> A single large capacity cable car from around the loch up to the summit cafe, with no man made stuff between. Roads, fences, buildings etc all gone. Then just footpaths and bike trails down through the forest. 

No. No cable car, no road. No anything. It was always the wrong place for "development".

 

OP Andy Johnson 09 Nov 2018
In reply to Snowdave:

> > Any discussion of sustainable tourism or landscape protection?

> That was high in the "tidy up the hillside" list..

I'm not taking issue with you, but it's hard to see how "tidy up the hillside" is compatible with building more uplift plus a mountain roller-coaster and  lift-served downhill mountain biking. In a national park.

I'm with Robert Duran @12:22. This whole thing is in the wrong place. It should be decommissioned, stripped, and the scars left to heal. If people really want more of these things then maybe build them somewhere less environmentally sensitive.

(Again, I'm not attacking you.)

Post edited at 15:03
 Diddy 09 Nov 2018

I learnt to ski at Cairngorm in the early 1980's; soon there was a lack of snow and we started going to France. For a memory visit I did go back to Scotland in the last two years, after going to France ; `Stormbound only for expert skiers` on the White Lady brought a memory smile back to my face. Later I went to Glenshee and was more impressed there; it was quieter with no queues. Not the same facilities nearby as in Aviemore but Braemar suited me.

For a good skier the length of the runs is, and will be, the issue as you end up using lifts a lot. Pomas and T-bars take some getting used to and put many people off if they are not that keen to be a skier.

 

 Snowdave 09 Nov 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

> I'm not taking issue with you, but it's hard to see how "tidy up the hillside" is compatible with building more uplift plus a mountain roller-coaster and  lift-served downhill mountain biking. In a national park.

> I'm with Robert Duran @12:22. This whole thing is in the wrong place. It should be decommissioned, stripped, and the scars left to heal. If people really want more of these things then maybe build them somewhere less environmentally sensitive.

> (Again, I'm not attacking you.)

 

At first glance I agree...totally incompatible….

 

BUT look at many alpine etc resorts etc where they have blended those items into the landscape with success.....look at what Glen Nevis has done & Glenshee etc..

 

The fact is it has earn more money from the summer months..& in many ways I have in previous dealings with the guys at CGML about 10ys ago "why have you not run MTB trails down some of the hardcore surfaces which are say the zig-zags..or the main road for the vehicles from the top station to the bottom station....

 

eg is you have to put in vehicle access for the works stuff..make it dual purpose so you can close it for one & open it for other use depending on time of day & season...

 

Ripping out the funicular would cost the £27million.....easy as the stations top & bottom have to be removed also...as part of the original agreement etc...

 

As for increased uplift...the HIE report wants that to happen its just it is proposed it by ripping out 2 pomas & 2 T-bars in the cas….however as was pointed out & I stated above that the amount of uplift required the cas carparks & shuttle bus from the ciste is a huge bottle neck...99% everybody in the room wanted those new chairlifts in the report moved to the ciste…& as the work crew stated that the existing tows to be removed in the HIE report have been rebuilt & fine then you can get more life out of them...

 

the report makes no firm mention of the train, but hints that it will continue but in a lower capacity for tourist..not the main skier uplift...

 

As for removing it totally...one downside..disability access (snowsports Scotland) & tourist access to the top in rain etc....other wise you have to then fit a gondola...

 

the reality is HIE have to be worked with as they are the Gov agency who have access to funding etc..& CGML needs this no matter who owns/runs the place...

 

NR running it on the other hand.....P45.....hopefully...but that's between HIE, Scot Gov & CGML..no one else 

 

 

 Diddy 09 Nov 2018

I forgot to mention that I have walked the GR5 from Geneva to Nice and on my French ski trips I often wondered what the resorts looked like in the summer. From memory I went through thirteen resorts. Often the resorts look dreadful as the recently opened ski runs are created by bulldozer and are terrific scars in the mountains. The older runs, once levelled, take years for some vegetation to return; though modern seeding techniques would improve that aspect. Not only do ski runs create havoc but lagoons and pipe work to serve snow making do great damage to the hills.

 

 r1ch79 10 Nov 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

Sorry guys but disagree that a mountain HAS to earn money.. why? I understand that it is desirable to create jobs but the right jobs in the right places surely? Im not a nimby but more infrastructure and people means ultimately more nevative  environmental impacts... i really dont want to see our mountains turned into theme parks i would prefer to have them more pristine but i understand its a difficult balancing act and each of us have our own tipping points.....respect to all views but thats mine folks


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