Busy mountains 'need investment - do they hell!

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 Chris_Mellor 04 May 2019

A BBC news article entitled "Snowdon and Pen y Fan: Busy mountains 'need investment'" - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-47997270 - starts "Crowds queuing at the peaks of Snowdon and Pen y Fan highlight the need to invest in infrastructure around Wales' mountains, authorities say."

They highlight the need, surely, to have fewer people at the top of Snowdon and Pen y Fan?  

Post edited at 17:06
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 GridNorth 04 May 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

> They highlight the need, surely, to have fewer people at the top of Snowdon and Pen y Fan?  

Absolutely but it's difficult to see how you might go about achieving that.

Al

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 BnB 04 May 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

I had the same thought at first. But perhaps the observer meant “investment in alternative attractions”. Maybe several interpretation boards scattered about explaining that Glyder Fach and Carnedd Llewelyn are also both 1085m?

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 Climbthatpitch 04 May 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Too be honest I'd be quite happy for investment for these mountains as it keeps everyone away from the mountain I'm on 😁.

Lee

1
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

It's the media/economic growth/better transport/more tourism/wild place death spiral. 

Brings out the misanthrope in me. 

What's the point of going to the hills if its full of bloody people?

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 mrphilipoldham 04 May 2019
In reply to GridNorth:

Stop all parking in the valleys, and provide a decent park and ride system? ie, one that runs from 4am until 8 or 9pm? I can imagine the thought of having to get on a bus (or walk from town) would put off many a suitor. 

1
 GridNorth 04 May 2019
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Perhaps but there is a strange paradox.  There are many on this forum who actively and enthusiastically want to encourage people to get into the outdoors.  Many of them make money out of doing so. Not sure how we as a community can have it both ways.

 mrphilipoldham 04 May 2019
In reply to GridNorth:

I don't make money out of it, and firmly believe more people should visit 'the outdoors' to benefit from the antidote to many of life's ills.. however I still curse when I turn up at some backwater to find someone else has had the same idea  

Moley 04 May 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

I have mixed feelings on this, we shouldn't attempt to discourage people from being outdoors and wanting to climb a "mountain" and have a photo.

Equally I don't want the whole lot of them traipsing all over the place and ruining all the nice, quiet, remote areas. So I'm inclined to go with giving them parking, burger vans, litter bins and made up paths to keep them all in a small number of high profile spots, places most of us never visit for these reasons. Probably easier for the MRT as well.

The BMC say in the report "But the British Mountaineering Council (BMC) said money must be spent on better facilities."  I am not entirely sure what that aludes to.

 gravy 04 May 2019
In reply to Moley:

What we need is an investment in an artificial "highest mountain in the UK" somewhere in the south east for all those "challenge junkies" to conquer and thus leave the real things to the solitude that so befits them.

1
 Billhook 04 May 2019
In reply to gravy:

Excellent proposal.  All we need is to issue certificates of achievement for all summiteers, some cheesy models, a few tacky photos of proper mountaineers, a bit about the history of Everest or Killimanjoro.  The odd historical item such as my old wooden ice axe.  Perhaps a book signing by Bare Grills and we'd make a fortune.

We could issue additional certificates for those who can only make it half way.  A disabled lift for those who can't manage it at all.  A bit of artifical snow in winter sprinkled around and we'd have a supplementary comment on the certificate stating it was completed under winter conditions.  

What about sherpas to carry handbags and take 'action' pictures of their ascent?  How many do we need?  What about a patron saint of the building?  That would attract the pilgrims too = we could offer special bottled water for a small fee.

Any more ideas?

6
Moley 04 May 2019
In reply to gravy:

Sounds good to me, a high point on the South Downs perhaps and a railway to the top - works for Snowdon.

In reply to Chris_Mellor:

'Call some place paradise - kiss it goodbye' The Eagles - Last Resort.

youtube.com/watch?v=p4zR9r9olOg&

 wintertree 04 May 2019
In reply to GridNorth:

> Absolutely but it's difficult to see how you might go about achieving that.

Some mountains in the USA have restricted access on the easier “tourist” routes.  These tend to be much tougher than any honeypot mountain routes in the UK.  Access is by permit only and permits are won in a yearly lottery.  Eg Mount Whitney - https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/inyo/passes-permits/recreation/?cid=stelprdb...

For the UK I am delighted that we have honeypot mountains. Invest in good car parks, good public transport, visually unobtrusive but robust paths etc.  The more people who climb a mountain even just once in their life the better, and if it’s concentrated and managed then the environmental impact is minimised and selfish old me can continue to have day-long hikes in the Torridons and upper Weardale where I don’t see a single soul.

 wintertree 04 May 2019
In reply to Billhook:

>  A disabled lift for those who can't manage it at all

Great idea.  I wonder how many disabled people have only seen the world from the top of a mountain because of the railway up Snowdon?  You can drive up to the summit of mountains in many countries*, but if you’ve got significant mobility problems the only way you are going to look out from the top of a mountain in the UK is the Snowdon railway.  

Some would say the experience is only rewarding if you put the effort in.  Tosh I say - for almost everyone it’s more effort to walk or cycle from their house to the base of the mountain than to climb it yet driving to the base doesn’t invalidate the experience.

* my best mountain drive to date has been up to the top of La Palma in the canaries.  Nothing handles like a hire car under the astronomical observatory’s headlight ban on the private road up to the telescopes.  I hope one day to drive up Pikes Peak in an EV.

Edit: actually, a hire car going *down* the same roads handles better.  Fond memories of a Fiat Panda that struggled going up in the thin air but was wagging its tail going down...

Post edited at 23:39
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 ianstevens 05 May 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

No, it highlights the need for investment in infrastructure to support the number of tourists. I’m going to use North Wales as an example, as I’m more familiar with it.

Over the summer period, driving around Snowdonia and parking is an absolute f*cking nightmare. Cars abandoned all over the shop, blocking roads/gates/paths/everything, and shear weight of traffic doubling journey times. Whilst not alone, most of the parking issues focus around Snowdon. The bus service that exists at present is poor - frequency of service is low, busses are full and services don’t stretch early or late enough in the day. There’s also not enough car parking space in Nant Peris as it is to accommodate the park and ride service, and it’s poorly advertised to tourists. Personally, I’d like to see the removal of parking at PyP, the lay-bys in the pass and Pen-y-Gwyrd, and an replace it all with an effective bus service. As the PyP parking is already there, this could be taken over by the youth hostel and used as a drop off (15mins max kind of thing) only. An effective park and ride would mean buses every 10-15 mins between the hours of 6am and dusk during the summer, and daylight hours on winter weekends. This would of course require the development of a massive car park somewhere - I’d suggest to the north of Llanberis. Haven’t got a specific place in mind of course... More frequent buses would reduce overcrowding, and less traffic and parking fiasco would make through traffic able to get through the pass effectively. Climbers who want to park as close to the crag as possible (me included) - you can get the bus as well, unless you have access to private parking (I.e. the CC hut). 

 In winter, the potential to apply in advance for a parking space would help those who want early starts. This system would need to be widely advertised by all accommodation providers, the national park, with road signs, and in the media. If needed, a similar system could be introduced to the Ogwen valley, although this always appears to me to be less of a choke point (although I am prepared to accept that could well be my perception). 

This would need to be funded, clearly. I’d like to see a tourist tax, similar to those in Switzerland, paid per night of accommodation, in addition to a small charge (£5-£10 per car) to park for the day and use the bus. I’d incorporate a locals subsidy for those who live nearby - say Gwynedd, Conwy, Ynys Mon, Ceredigion, North Powys and Denbeighshire (ie the local authority and adjacent neighbours), possibly with some kind of distance weighting - free for locals, 1/2 for neighbours kind of thing. Unpopular perhaps, but I suspect would reduce a lot of traffic woes.

Other issue is the paths. Snowdon is a bit unique in that it actually sees a lot of path management and it shows. Other places, such as Cader Idris, and up by Bristly Ridge, have some horrendous gravel chutes as paths. These need some serious attention IMO; they’re over eroded scars and could be made visually better and nicer to use with some work. Mend our Mountains has helped, but a lot more needs doing.

All of the above requires, above all, some economic investment. It’s unfair to expect Gwynedd residents to fund this - hence there needs to be some national and UK scale involvement. I’m sure the same can be said around Pen y Fan, I’m just less familiar with the location. People making facetious comments about ice cream machines, bins and certificates, you’re idiots. There are many real issues related to poor management of cars and people in these areas that need money and solutions.  

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 Offwidth 05 May 2019
In reply to ianstevens:

Really good post, thank you.

 ianstevens 05 May 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

Mainly a rant, but thanks. I'm of the opinion that the UK hills can handle to volume of people they get, even at the honeypot sites, but things need to change to provide infrastructure to support this.

 jcw 05 May 2019
In reply to BnB:

Alternatives. Or perhaps to build a via ferrata on Cloggy?

Post edited at 10:57
 summo 05 May 2019
In reply to ianstevens:

Bristly ridge, or rather the path to the side. The answer would be if you aren't scrambling the actual ridge, then encourage people to take the old miners path and dog leg up to the top. 

 ianstevens 05 May 2019
In reply to summo:

> Bristly ridge, or rather the path to the side. The answer would be if you aren't scrambling the actual ridge, then encourage people to take the old miners path and dog leg up to the top. 

Yep, that was what I meant by the path "up by" Bristy ridge. Like you say, I tend to take the older, longer path - but many don't, and the erosion scar won't fix itself anytime soon.

 ianstevens 05 May 2019
In reply to BnB:

> I had the same thought at first. But perhaps the observer meant “investment in alternative attractions”. Maybe several interpretation boards scattered about explaining that Glyder Fach and Carnedd Llewelyn are also both 1085m?

Glyde Fach grown overnight????

Moley 05 May 2019
In reply to ianstevens:

I think you have made some good points and ideas, the fact is that any improvements/changes to these highly popular areas need financing and IMO that financing should come mainly from users of those facilities. How they are taxed is another debate, but I think you have some great ideas.

I don't agree with your comment " People making facetious comments about ice cream machines, bins and certificates, you’re idiots." or possibly that's just part of you in rant mode? I think everyone here wants the best and recognises a problem - a few throwaway jokes are all that was made - all of us want to preserve our hills and access the peace and quiet in places.

But peace and quiet isn't what most want is it? Snowdon the most popular mountain has a railway to the top and a sodding great café when you get there. Pen-y-fan from Storey Arms has car parks full of burger and ice cream vans, all are well used by the public and the place is horrendous on a nice day. Most of us our concern is NOT to turn everywhere else into this, we don't want to find a burger van, coffee stall, ice creams in every small car park and layby around Snowdonia (or wherever), so I don't think these were facetious comments at all, but genuine concerns for the future.

The problem will be, who takes the lead and instigates? Local councils, villages, accommodation? Who ever, you can guarantee there will be plenty against the idea of paying for anything.

 ianstevens 05 May 2019
In reply to Moley:

> I think you have made some good points and ideas, the fact is that any improvements/changes to these highly popular areas need financing and IMO that financing should come mainly from users of those facilities. How they are taxed is another debate, but I think you have some great ideas.

Thank you. The funding debate is of course another issue...

> I don't agree with your comment " People making facetious comments about ice cream machines, bins and certificates, you’re idiots." or possibly that's just part of you in rant mode? I think everyone here wants the best and recognises a problem - a few throwaway jokes are all that was made - all of us want to preserve our hills and access the peace and quiet in places.

Part of rant mode there, but it is a bit frustrating when people think that tourist infrastructure extends to solely increasing convenience for irregular hill going tourists, not as a sustainable way of reducing people-pressure in rural areas to make them more useable for all.

> But peace and quiet isn't what most want is it? Snowdon the most popular mountain has a railway to the top and a sodding great café when you get there. Pen-y-fan from Storey Arms has car parks full of burger and ice cream vans, all are well used by the public and the place is horrendous on a nice day. Most of us our concern is NOT to turn everywhere else into this, we don't want to find a burger van, coffee stall, ice creams in every small car park and layby around Snowdonia (or wherever), so I don't think these were facetious comments at all, but genuine concerns for the future.

Peace and quiet is what most of us regular hill-goers do want I suspect. However in my experience doing the occasional bit of guide work* the average mount snowden(tm) summit visitor just wants to get to the top of Snowdon and "conquer" the "mountain", so I do agree with you in some respect. I'm okay with there being these high use honeypots, there are still plenty of quiet places or even quite times in busy places that can be taken advantage of. The solution I take to this personally is basically to avoid Snowdon in high tourist season, unless its late or early in the day. But like I've said above, the further development of temporary infrastructure isn't how I think such investment should be directed.

> The problem will be, who takes the lead and instigates? Local councils, villages, accommodation? Who ever, you can guarantee there will be plenty against the idea of paying for anything.

Well yes. Again, north Wales specific, but there is a plan for the Snowdon area (https://www.snowdonpartnership.co.uk/read-me), derived by a consortium of arms-length government bodies, charities, local government and commercial businesses. In my mind goes nowhere near far enough, as I'm sure you can see when compared with my suggestions above, and I did contribute when the local community was consulted.

 peppermill 05 May 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

As much as I love to encourage people to get outside, with each passing year a larger and larger part of me sees this kind of thing and thinks 'Good, keeps 'em all in one place and and out of my bloody way'

OP Chris_Mellor 05 May 2019
In reply to ianstevens:

Well Jan Stevens, that was worth reading and you made lots of good points.

Cheers.

 Dave Cundy 05 May 2019
In reply to jcw:

How about diverting the railway up Snowdon so that it goes inside Cloggy?  We could have our own 'Stollenloch' door that opens out onto the belay, half way up Great Wall...

pasbury 06 May 2019
In reply to ianstevens:

I think the crucial point is convenience, convenience in the right place. Not on the mountain or even near it. Our national parks are not at all like those in America, they can’t be managed in the same way. It’s all private land.

We need to find a way of using rights of way and CROW land appropriately. That’s how people get about in the countryside.

If everyone thinks they can park in the Pass on a bank holiday then the whole area becomes a nightmare. If everyone knows that no-one can park within large parts of the National Park then they will plan differently, perhaps using the out of park car parks you propose.

XXXX 06 May 2019
In reply to Moley:

The South Downs already has more visitor days a year than the Lake District and Snowdonia combined.

Why would you make Britain's favourite national park even more popular?

 Tringa 06 May 2019
In reply to pasbury:

A difficult one.

Getting more people out into the countryside might help raise the profile of countryside issue and rural economies could do with a boost.

There is also the negative impact to consider. I'm lucky enough to spend a fair bit of the year in NW Scotland and the NC500 has brought more people to the area. This has helped local hotels/guest houses/shops/petrol stations but I'm not sure how far the boost to the economy goes – not everyone works in hospitality, shops or petrol stations.

However, local papers note the increase in litter and the use of roadside pull ins as toilets.

There is also the impact on the road system. Some will have never driven on single track roads before and cause problems to other road users. Must admit to some amusement at a group of five cars travelling very close together in Glen Torridon last summer when they met a delivery van and the bin lorry and found not all of them could fit a passing place. The Pass of the Cattle is now, understandably, much busier but is attempted by some with unsuitable vehicles.

Is the solution to make all roads two way? Why not make them dual carriageways? Part of the charm of such places is that they are different.

I think some who are now going into the countryside are doing so for the wrong reasons.

Not because they have any love of the area but because it has been a film location – I wonder how many people visited the Glenfinnan Viaduct before Harry Potter, or because it now has a name – all the roads that are now part of the NC500 were there before, the spectacular scenery was there, but clearly hundreds, if not thousands, had never considered going until it was named and they could say, “I've done the NC500” .

Sorry a bit of rant which hasn't helped the discussion here.

Dave

 summo 06 May 2019
In reply to Tringa:

Maybe the problem is as much how towns and new housing is built or designed, that makes people want to escape. One new housing estate squeezes right up against the last. No green areas or woodland is left. No paths and cycle lanes etc.. it's just urban sprawl obliterating anything green. Perhaps it's better to use a bit more green belt land and have a town whose diameter is larger, but with green spaces amongst it.  

If cities are planned to be nicer places to live there might be less of exodus every Friday evening. 

Post edited at 11:12
 Tringa 06 May 2019
In reply to summo:

> Maybe the problem is as much how towns and new housing is built or designed, that makes people want to escape. One new housing estate squeezes right up against the last. No green areas or woodland is left. No paths and cycle lanes etc.. it's just urban sprawl obliterating anything green. Perhaps it's better to use a bit more green belt land and have a town whose diameter is larger, but with green spaces amongst it.  

> If cities are planned to be nicer places to live there might be less of exodus every Friday evening. 


Good point.

Dave

 lucozade 06 May 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Very interesting discussion... especially thinking of some of the points in light of today's challenging UN report on our negative impact on nature and biodiversity. Education and action needed in our mountain areas and beyond!

 Tringa 06 May 2019
In reply to lucozade:

> Very interesting discussion... especially thinking of some of the points in light of today's challenging UN report on our negative impact on nature and biodiversity. Education and action needed in our mountain areas and beyond!

You last sentence reminded me of a comment made while I was on a Mountain Leadership training course at Plas y Brenin in the late 1980s.

One of the participants worked for the Snowdonia National Park and said he thought school groups should not be allowed into the countryside without prior guidance because, "Some don't know how to behave in the outdoors." Perhaps this could be extended to everyone.

Dave 

Moley 06 May 2019
In reply to XXXX:

The South downs NP may be very busy overall, but it doesn't have a single mega attraction, which is the big problem for some other areas. 

It would be interesting to have figures for the amount of people that go for a walk in say Snowdonia or Brecon beacons NParks and the percentage of them that just go to summit Snowdon or Pen y fan.

The South downs (my recollection from when I lived there and knew it well) has little open access land and much of it is fenced rights of way between fields, so people just walk the tracks and utilize most of them, spreading the load. Now if Chanctonberry Ring was suddenly 3000ft high with views of 40 miles I bet there would be mayhem there.

Also to be fair, and I hate to say this, but the south downs are not that interesting, challenging or even pretty. I say that as someone brought up down there. Sorry!

 jcw 06 May 2019
In reply to Dave Cundy:

 Not incompatible with my via ferrata. Particularly if someone falls off it and is left im Seil hängend to add flavour. 

Post edited at 18:07
 Dave the Rave 06 May 2019
In reply to ianstevens:

Can’t Gwynedd just kick a farmer or two off their land and build a big car park? Farmers are subsidied to feck anyway 

Post edited at 19:03
Moley 06 May 2019
In reply to Dave the Rave:

I'm sure there's a few farmers, tenant or land owners, that would be more than happy to diversify and build a big car park on their land, easier income than sheep farming.

Getting it through planning permission may not be so easy. Nothing like a farmer wanting to tarmac over 10 acres of field and potentially make a packet of money to have the objections flooding in. 

 profitofdoom 07 May 2019
In reply to gravy:

> What we need is an investment in an artificial "highest mountain in the UK" somewhere in the south east for all those "challenge junkies" to conquer and thus leave the real things to the solitude that so befits them.

Brilliant idea. And while we're at it how about a new highest peak in the world to give Everest a rest / a break, let it recover


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