Building new cairns and shelters

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 Jamie Hageman 11 Dec 2021

I was up on Carn Dearg SW a few weeks ago, and someone had spent some time building a brand new cairn five or so metres from the existing cairn.  They had prized rocks from neighbouring crags and carried substantial pieces to build it, leaving open scars around.  I thought it was a bit odd and not necessary, so I spent a little time deconstructing it and trying to get the rocks back roughly where they came from.

My onward journey took me across the neck that joins Carn Dearg SW to the Ben.  I then came across a very large wall freshly built using all manner of different sized blocks, some very large and difficult to move.  I decided to return the area back to its pristine state (or as good as I could manage).  It took me a long time as it was a big wall and I had to get rocks back to where they came from - obvious from the fresh orange colour and all the scars surrounding the site.  The person who built it had also ripped out lots of moss and wedged it into cracks in his wall.

What do people think about things like this?  Personally, I think it's totally inappropriate and I'm happy to remove them.  I have also done something similar on Being Fhada (Beinn Attow) when I came across a huge cross made from leaves of split rock prized from a crag near by.  The builder of that had levered out massive sheets of rock and carried them a fair way to make this cross.  I managed to get the sheets back, but it was hard as some of them weighed a lot and were sharp.  

I don't really care about the reasons for these constructions.  They are certainly not necessary and they are not welcome in such wild parts of the unspoilt mountains.  I don't mind a cairn on a summit, but that's about it.  

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 mrphilipoldham 11 Dec 2021
In reply to Jamie Hageman:

You should see the ones on Kinder Scout along the Pennine Way. It's a massive scar for the most part, if not paved, and you'd struggle to lose it even in a full on white out yet some numpties keep pulling stones out of the ground to build new cairns within a handful metres of existing ones. I had a (online) chat with a self confessed cairn builder once, he was proud of his work even to the extent that he didn't care if pulling up stones and leaving sand behind sped up erosion. Beggars belief.

 Run_Ross_Run 11 Dec 2021
In reply to Jamie Hageman:

Adhoc rock piles are knocked down normally. Concern is that they may be mistakenly taken as a cairn (marked on os maps) and cause nav issues.

Eyesore too. 

 Lankyman 11 Dec 2021
In reply to Jamie Hageman:

You did the right thing. Where I often walk, by the shore of Morecambe Bay, morons often build fires on salt marsh turf with stone fire rings. I always destroy them (the rings, not the morons).

1
 George Allan 12 Dec 2021
In reply to Jamie Hageman:

Good for you- I've done the same. There is a world of difference between the odd cairn marking where a path branches off or where there are clear safety reasons and unnecessary constructions, sometimes posing as outdoor 'art'. Let's try to keep the hills from being further 'urbanised'.

 Flinticus 12 Dec 2021
In reply to Jamie Hageman:

Is this a variation on the widespread practice of 'building' shelters in woodland? Always involves disturbing deadwood, frequently pulling up live growth and sometimes damaging standing wood. I've seen this practice boom in my local parks since lockdown.

1
 Tom Valentine 12 Dec 2021
In reply to George Allan:

, sometimes posing as outdoor 'art'. 

How do you know when it's "posing" as art and when it's the real thing? 

Is it "posing" if I build it but real art if Goldsworthy chucks it up?

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 Cog 12 Dec 2021
In reply to George Allan:

One time in the 90s we were heading up the Cioch to climb on the upper buttress. I was knocking down cairns as I went, a climber coming down had a go at me because he thought I was building cairns!

russellcampbell 12 Dec 2021
In reply to Jamie Hageman:

Your real name is C*****n McN**** and I claim my £10.

Being serious, I haven't come across many examples of superfluous cairns but I take your word for them being a problem. However, they are a serious problem at the top of my local hill, Dumyat. For those who don't know the hill there is a brazier at the top perched on a manmade cemented cairn. The top of the brazier is well above head height and is filled with stones. Occasionally these stones form a cone as much as 2 feet above the top of the brazier. Sometimes the top stones have been balanced precariously on top of each other in a thin line, ready to fall and hit people below. EG. In a strong wind. Very dangerous. On occasion I have used a walking pole to dislodge them. - After making sure nobody is below. This has led to strange looks from people and I have had to explain myself. My actions have definitely never been appreciated. To be fair, Dumyat is much frequented by non-hill walkers but a bit of common sense would show the dangers of the stone stacking. What puzzles me is the effort it would require to stack the stones. It is not an easy task and would require a bit of precarious scrambling. Thankfully, a few weeks ago somebody dislodged most of the stones, leaving them flush with the top of the brazier. 

 ScraggyGoat 12 Dec 2021
In reply to russellcampbell:

I suspect the difference between Cambert McPhish and Jamie, is that Jamie actually cares about the hills.

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 NathanP 12 Dec 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

> ... Where I often walk, by the shore of Morecambe Bay, morons often build fires on salt marsh turf with stone fire rings. I always destroy them (the rings, not the morons).

Sorry for the dislike but you really need to deal with the source of the problem and destroy the morons.

 NathanP 12 Dec 2021
In reply to Tom Valentine:

> , sometimes posing as outdoor 'art'. 

> How do you know when it's "posing" as art and when it's the real thing? ...

I found a load of piled up rubbish in Coventry city centre the other day and reported it to the council's fly tipping hotline. Don't think they have done anything yet.

https://coventry2021.co.uk/what-s-on/turner-prize/

1
 Dave Hewitt 12 Dec 2021
In reply to russellcampbell:

> However, they are a serious problem at the top of my local hill, Dumyat. For those who don't know the hill there is a brazier at the top perched on a manmade cemented cairn. The top of the brazier is well above head height and is filled with stones.

Talking of the beacon bucket, the better half and I were on Dumyat in early November, having come up by the Lossburn route, and while were sitting just below the top for a snack a young couple appeared via the main path, f-ing and c-ing loudly and repeatedly - not aggressively, but it did rather undermine the tranquillity of the scene. The chap then proceeded to climb on top of the bucket and started throwing stones in various directions. There wasn't anyone else around and no stones came our way (I think he'd seen where we were), so we didn't say anything at that stage. But after a few minutes of this he climbed back down armed with a medium-sized rock which he lobbed down the steepish grassy slope south of the summit. At this point words were had. I said "Please don't do that, people sometimes come up that way and could get hit". He looked at me, then peered over the edge and said "Aye, f-ing Spiderman", clearly unconvinced that he was doing anything wrong.

So it might have been him who was your recent dislodger of the top layer of stones.

 Robert Durran 12 Dec 2021
In reply to ScraggyGoat:

> I suspect the difference between Cambert McPhish and Jamie, is that Jamie actually cares about the hills.

Why the dislike of Cameron McNeish?

 Robert Durran 12 Dec 2021
In reply to Tom Valentine:

> Is it "posing" if I build it but real art if Goldsworthy chucks it up?

This problem is why it is all wrong, Goldsworthy or you, unless it is temporary and promptly removed leaving no trace.

1
 Red Rover 12 Dec 2021
In reply to Flinticus:

I've noticed loads of those lately as well but is moving deadwood around really a problem? Where I live the kids have just collected dead branches and made teepees out of them. I think it's good that kids are getting out into the woods and all their shelter will rot down eventually anway.

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 IanMcC 12 Dec 2021
In reply to Dave Hewitt:

I know I am in a minority, but I loathe the brazier and - even more- the military memorial on top of Dumyat.

 Dave Hewitt 12 Dec 2021
In reply to IanMcC:

> I know I am in a minority, but I loathe the brazier and - even more- the military memorial on top of Dumyat.

I always feel a bit sorry for Dumyat, what with all the "institutional clutter" and also the masses of litter especially since they improved the main path. The new version of the military memorial might have its merits but is a bit ridiculous in terms of size compared to the old shield-shaped one - this new one must be six times the size at least. And when they installed it (I seem to recall a helicopter was involved) whoever did it then lobbed a couple of half-used bags of cement down the northern slope - I was one of several people who eventually carted out some of this, not an easy or pleasant process. There's also now that memorial to the mathematician chap - dunno quite how that appeared, presumably money changed hands somewhere as you can't really just put up something like that willy-nilly.

 Tom Valentine 12 Dec 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

I've never been up Nine Standards Rigg but I hope to get there before you puritans have your way.

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 wintertree 12 Dec 2021
In reply to Jamie Hageman:

Gamify it.  Cairn Jenga.

I don’t have a problem dismantling obviously inappropriate cairns (e.g where you have one every five meters along the world’s most obvious, regularly waymarked path).

What I do find incredibly difficult is dispersing the stones in a way that feels appropriate and natural.   So, I limit myself to removing a couple of stones and placing them somewhere they “fit” over the next couple of miles.

I’m not always against people rearranging rocks.  A beach local to us has meter deep layer of slag that was washed on to it from other beaches from over a century of the coal industry dumping slag at sea.  During lockdown some phenomenal art was made re-arranging the sea coal and industrial waste stained rocks.  I’m particularly impressed by the gradient fill on the boat.


russellcampbell 13 Dec 2021
In reply to Dave Hewitt:

Interesting but unpleasant story, Dave. I assumed  the stones had been cleared by somebody for altruistic reasons. I wasn't exaggerating about the dangers of the stones at times.

About 2 months ago around 9.00 on a Saturday morning I had an unpleasant encounter at the top of Dumyat. A guy had come up from Sheriffmuir direction on some kind of a motorbike which had a very loud exhaust, artificially loud I would have said. He turned off the engine, dismounted and began talking with 2 runners. He was cursing and swearing like your guy, managing 3 Fs in one sentence at one point. His complaint was that a farmer had chased him off the hill when coming up from the Menstrie direction. I kept my head down and said nothing so he began to complain about people objecting to h being on hills on his ridiculously loud bike. The 2 runners agreed with him and talked about "people being up their own a***s." By this time I had had enough and looked them in the eye and said,"That includes me." Luckily I got no response and headed down to Menstrie. However, I found the whole thing very upsetting.

Agree about the newish memorial being a monstrosity. I've got a thistle from the old one in my garden I also carried down some debris.

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russellcampbell 13 Dec 2021
In reply to russellcampbell:

"Objecting to him"

 Flinticus 13 Dec 2021
In reply to Red Rover:

It depends on the scale and frequency. Dead wood provides a home to insects but not so much if its stacked vertically and exposed plus moved around. I was of your view until the scale of it escalated so that at times it seemed every second tree was growing a fence of badly propped up branches. Aren't most things ok in moderation?

 Tricky Dicky 13 Dec 2021
In reply to Flinticus:

I really can't see that childrens shelters/teepees are having a significant effect on insects in woodland. Far better to have children out in the woods engaging with nature than just stuck indoors.  This is an issue that I recently raised with the local countryside rangers and they're happy to see children building such shelters, even if they don't personally like them on aesthetic grounds.

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 Dave Hewitt 13 Dec 2021
In reply to russellcampbell:

> About 2 months ago around 9.00 on a Saturday morning I had an unpleasant encounter at the top of Dumyat. A guy had come up from Sheriffmuir direction on some kind of a motorbike which had a very loud exhaust

Glad it turned out OK - it's a rare day when I feel I ought to say anything critical to someone on a hill, but when it does happen there's always the worry that things might turn seriously unpleasant. When I spoke to the stone-throwing bloke in November it turned out fine, but I could feel my legs shaking due to adrenaline/nerves for a few minutes afterwards and I was glad we were going down a different way from him and his good lady (who repeatedly referred to him as "ya c***".)

Further along the Ochils, on my more regular patch, I occasionally see (or sometimes just hear) trials motorbikes heading up off-road somewhere - the two standard places seem to be the Silver Glen etc track and round the woodland loop above Alva. My experience of these guys (it's always been youngish men, and two at most) is that they're friendly and actually quite courteous - I met a pair of them in the Silver Glen again last month and they were fine. I've heard the local shepherds say that they don't mind them either, just so long as they don't leave gates open or trash fences - both of which have happened in the past. I'm similarly OK with them provided they behave themselves, which the Alva ones tend to do - whereas the bloke you met on his bike on Dumyat sounds like a less pleasant type.

 Fat Bumbly2 13 Dec 2021
In reply to russellcampbell:

Wish someone would clean up Dumyat. Too much scrap on the summit.

Only stone trundling incident was at Pembroke once with three lads about to send a block down somewhere near Triple Buttress. Very worrying, always wondered who was above me after that.

Post edited at 10:36
In reply to Jamie Hageman:

Over the last two winters I reinstated a cairn above the Holme Valley. It had been there for many years and was marked on the 1:50k map. A local man had it built, with permission, and it was visible from his house. A few years back contractors installing a fence on the moor pilfered the stone to pack fence posts in the boggy ground.

So, after scattering the ashes of my old collie dog at the site I decided to rebuild the cairn. Working on the worst of days, to avoid being challenged, I carried about three tons of stone across the moor, using an old 30L rucksack. It took many trips. The stone came from a area of fallen walls. 

I finished the cairn in lockdown. It's since become a local destination. I'm quietly proud of my cairn. 

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 Lankyman 13 Dec 2021
In reply to Deleated bagger:

Not a cairn but back in October I came across a new plaque bolted to the summit rocks of Deuchary Hill near Dunkeld. I was chatting to the 'perp' who'd just placed it there before I arrived. It's a memorial to his Army mate and he actually pointed it out to me. He seemed like a nice enough bloke and I didn't have the heart to tell him that I don't agree with such things. Once one goes in, it's open season and then the place becomes a shrine garden. What next - solar-charged neon crosses with holographic images of dear old Daddy? A plague on plaques!

 G. Tiger, Esq. 13 Dec 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

I've come across a few shrines in my time. Two stand out, both on Tryfan.

One near the top of FPR, maybe twenty years ago, was I think an  a4 photo and text encased in glass /perspex and bolted to the rock. Pretty hideous I thought.

The second I spotted this year, having been up for the first time in a long time without snow cover. Just south of the summit I poked my head over a waist high "handrail" on the eastern side and found a small discreet plaque about 3x4 inches I think. Brass maybe, dark metal certainly. Far less intrusive 

GTE

 CantClimbTom 13 Dec 2021
In reply to Deleated bagger:

Good for you, re-instating a cairn that is marked on a map is a public service and might save a lost walker in bad weather.

Creating a cairn not marked on a map (especially if established cairns are in the area) might confuse a lost walker sending them a wrong direction

 Red Rover 13 Dec 2021
In reply to Flinticus:

Some of the woods are looking a bit ugly with all the teepees but with what kids have been through in the last couple of years I think we can let them get away with it. If people go into the countryside without dropping litter or just burning it down then we're doing well!

 Tom Valentine 13 Dec 2021
In reply to Deleated bagger:

Tell us where so I can make it my next walk, and i'll be proud to acknowledge your achievement with a silent word when i get there.

 Red Rover 13 Dec 2021
In reply to Deleated bagger:

Is the fence you mention the one that has gone up on the Black Hill Plateau? I thought that was a shame as the plateau always felt so free and open, but if I had to try and make a living from farming I might not care about that kind of thing.

In reply to Red Rover:

He Deleated bagger: says; A local man had it built, with permission, and it was visible from his house

your right about the fence horrid thing 

In reply to Tom Valentine:

The cairn is located at Elbow End above Ramsden Clough. Grid reference SE 124040.

 Flinticus 14 Dec 2021
In reply to Red Rover:

Yeah, you're right. Anyway far less damaging that the park authorities own activities.

Post edited at 07:50
 George Allan 14 Dec 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

That's what I meant. There is a place for outdoor art, good, bad or indifferent, but it's not in the hills or on remoter beaches. There are few enough places we haven't trashed already.

 JB 14 Dec 2021
In reply to George Allan:

Came across a new memorial cross when I was in the Mournes (in N. Ireland) a year or so back. A pretty serious job - wooden with multiple plaques and concrete base. From memory I think the inscription said the cross had originally been on B. Nevis (so I guess removed at request of John Muir Trust maybe). The dedication was to several members of the Paras and I remember thinking it wouldn't last long. A few months later I was up there again and someone had sawed it off at the base...

 subtle 14 Dec 2021
In reply to russellcampbell:

Always enjoyed my jaunts up Dumyat, they have always been an a MTB and have never had a bad experience when chatting to walkers

Always thought the stone filled brazier was nice, a focal point to aim for when out for a ride.

Has the phase of "rock standing" passed (balancing a pile of stones upon each other - that really was getting a pain when out enjoying the countryside or beaches or is it still a thing?

russellcampbell 14 Dec 2021
In reply to subtle:

I often have a nice chat with mountain bikers on Dumyat as well.  I've possibly chewed the fat with you in the past. (I find it hard to  shut up.) Vast majority of walkers are nice but, as in Dave Hewitt's story, there are occasionally some not so nice. This is bound to happen on a hill as busy as Dumyat, especially as it is frequented by people who would not normally go up hills. However, my most unpleasant encounter was on a Lake District fell where you would only be likely to see regular hill walkers.

"Rock standing" was what I was trying to describe in my original post. Thanks for letting me know the correct term.


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