Bothies go mainstream

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 pneame 22 Jan 2019

Nice article on bothies in the New York Times, of all places. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/21/travel/in-search-of-britains-bothies.htm...

 

2
 ScraggyGoat 22 Jan 2019
In reply to pneame:

'To maintain simple shelters in remote country for the use & benefit of all who love wild & lonely places'

....but the presence of a bothy and the recent trend for widespread promotion precludes 'lonely'. 

The former Outdoor Writers Guild agreement not to mention or reveal bothy locations, has been well and truely consigned to the 20th Century.

 

 

 

4
 richprideaux 22 Jan 2019
In reply to ScraggyGoat:

> The former Outdoor Writers Guild agreement not to mention or reveal bothy locations, has been well and truely consigned to the 20th Century.


It's redundant since the MBA published the locations themselves:

https://www.mountainbothies.org.uk/bothies/location-map/

Granted that there are non-MBA bothies too

 

1
OP pneame 22 Jan 2019
In reply to ScraggyGoat:

Aye - my initial reaction was "oh no"

Nice article though, although I hate to imagine the future. 

 McHeath 22 Jan 2019
In reply to pneame:

Yes, good article. And I'd say he certainly earned the right to write it, with 200 miles of walking and 12 bothy nights.

 PaulJepson 22 Jan 2019
In reply to pneame:

While it's obviously a very romantic notion of these little huts in far off lands like Britain, there are a ton of shelters very similar on the US east coast (a couple within 50 miles of New York city 'n all). A majority are 3-sided simple lean-tos, but there are full huts with stoves. I've stayed in plenty and while they are usually of timber construction rather than stone, the codes, ethos and usage are the same. 

 

1
 ScraggyGoat 22 Jan 2019
In reply to richprideaux:

Incorrect.  There is a difference between the MBA 'publishing', and Journo's, self-selected 'experts' along with writers 'promoting'.

The self-imposed moratorium  of the Outdoor Writers Guild understood that clearly, which was why it was introduced. They knew that bothies by their very nature have a 'carrying' capacity, and that they would be lost as 'wild and lonely places' if 'promoted'.  

The promotion in recent years hasn't been undertaken for the benefit of the Scottish/UK outdoor community whom for years have been using the bothy network, and whom founded and help sustain it, because bothies and the MBA were already virtually universally known in this community already.......so one has to ask to what benefit do these promotions bring.....or should that be to whose benefit? 

Previous generations of outdoor writers had enough introspection and maturity of thought to understand the likely impact of their actions, so chose not to, or to do so very carefully. This awareness appears to be entirely absent in the modern 'crop'.

It is a very interesting parallel to Cambert McPhish's plagiarism 'The Munro's', he usurped the carefully predominantly freely given works of volunteer authors of the SMC guides, funds from which were re-invested for the outdoor communities benefit. He realized a new market could be reached with the advancements of publishing technology.  Leading to a surge in the popularity of munro bagging, (resulting as an aside a concomitant decrease in peoples 'route planning' ability) and essentially for better 'changed' the hill walking scene in Scotland by making it more accessible (dare I say it 'popular').  Which came at the cost of increased erosion, decreased solitude and 'pressures' to some services and areas.

The recent bothy  and 'trail' guides have commercialized for private gain and 'fame' the decades long efforts of MBA volunteers, and taken advantage of an emerging market.  This is changing the bothy use.  The difference is its perfectly possible to have hundreds of folks up a munro if it becomes popular, the same can't be said of bothies.

Post edited at 15:38
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 Rob Parsons 22 Jan 2019
In reply to ScraggyGoat:

What's the MBA's position on 'The Bothy Bible' book? Its author is associated with the MBA, isn't he?

 malky_c 22 Jan 2019
In reply to ScraggyGoat:

It would appear to me that the MBA are actively encouraging some of this promotion to try and attract some younger blood to the organisation. Bothies don't look after themselves and getting people who have the time and skills to volunteer as MO's and go on work parties can't be that easy.

Post edited at 16:00
 ScraggyGoat 22 Jan 2019
In reply to Rob Parsons:

The MBA is split internally, formally its position is that it is a 'maintenance organisation' and so has no opinion, however it was essentially presented with a 'done deal' the book was going to be published, and the author was going to give some return to the MBA, so they sort of endorsed it (wrongly in my view). The hope is that with more use as a result of publicity the MBA gains more volunteers, whom then can help with maintenance and hopefully allow the obvious future challenges be over come.

Privately there is concern (in some quarters) that the book has undermined trust between the MBA/MO's and some estates. As an MBA MO has written a glossy book promoting other peoples property and didn't even have the consideration to inform or seek the actual bothy owners views on their properties inclusion, or fellow MO's. There are the usual concerns of use and abuse...........or rather future overwhelming use.

Privately (and occasionally publicly) some (but not all) MO's are 'livid'.

An interesting comparison would be to ?Mike Salters, Bothy Listing, briefly self-published (now withdrawn) by 'Folly Publications'.  A far more comprehensive, and greater labour of love, and not done for fame or ego, that would have helped the average Scottish hill goer.  He had hunted for, and documented as many non-MBA bothies and other possible ad hoc shelters all across Scotland as he could find. This listing/book was available to purchase but you essentially had to 'convince' him that you could be entrusted with such a work before he would supply.  He attend an MBA AGM (granted an AGM wasn't really the right 'event' and also it wasn't on the agenda) under the mistaken impression that the attendees would be interested to discuss his work, but was roundly turned upon. He found the experience and the feed back so hostile he 'withdrew' his publication from sale.

Two similar works two apparently different responses....one book a done deal.  If we could turn back time and put Geoff Allan in front of an MBA AGM with instead of him saying I have, but I am thinking of publishing a coffee table book of all MBA bothies and have a publisher interested.....I wonder if he would have got a similar response to Mike Salter?

Yes you did read that right you could have had a list of ' numerous non-MBA bothies', rather than having to make detours to your tramps, cycles and paddles to check out buildings over many decades (two and a half decades for me and a private list of 40+) to compile it yourself...............and you missed the chance!

Post edited at 16:22
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 DaveHK 22 Jan 2019
In reply to malky_c:

> It would appear to me that the MBA are actively encouraging some of this promotion to try and attract some younger blood to the organisation. 

Yes but that's change and change is bad.

2
Removed User 22 Jan 2019
In reply to malky_c:

You'll considerately lower the age profile of the next work party in the SWH&I area.

 malky_c 22 Jan 2019
In reply to Removed UserDeleted bagger:

Most likely! Just need to work out which days I'm going to be there now...

 Flinticus 22 Jan 2019
In reply to DaveHK:

The opposite mantra, that 'change is good', is equally a foolish stance.

Change should accommodate the function and aims of the organisation as set out. If you have different views, go elsewhere. When I stopped believing in god etc. I left the church, I didn't expect it to adapt to my change.

I've been an MBA member for over a decade and are now thinking, why keep paying for over-publicised shelters that are frequently too busy for me to use and I end up in my tent. 

1
Removed User 22 Jan 2019
In reply to ScraggyGoat:

I try to take a long view on the use and over-use of bothies. Over forty years of using these shelters I'm firmly of the opinion that there are more folk in the hills these days. My experience is that some bothies are, often due to ease of access, are popular. This can lead to misuse. But this is not a resent development. Over the decades bothies have been lost, due to fire or owners feeling discouraged because of vandalism. Education of prospective users has it's benefits. In the northern area of England one group of culprits where identified and challenged. They have subsequent taken part in work parties. Also, I was in Glean Dubh Lighe bothy last week. Despite being with a half hour walk of the road it remains in as good as condition as the day it reopened after the fire.

 Dave the Rave 22 Jan 2019
In reply to pneame:

I can imagine an American turning up at a bothy full of beards and uttering ‘ say, where are the chicks guys’.

3
 Sean Kelly 22 Jan 2019
In reply to pneame:

I really enjoyed reading the article, thanks for the link. The photo of the group gathered around the fire is a lovely image that somehow sums up the bothy experience. Meeting as strangers and leaving as friends. I've only had one bad bothy night when a noisy group arrived well past midnight and proceeded to party. Another very crowded night at Shenavall when we all knew how sardines must feel. The situation with bothies and whether they should be open information concerning their location could be likened to the Osprey. The RSPB decided that protection was better afforded to the birds if the site was public knowledge and so there would be more people about to police the area and ensure that birds and more importantly eggs, would be safe.  More awareness of the bothies will not only lead to more visitors but also result in more volunteers for work parties and and more donations to their upkeep. Best to be positive on these issues. Why should only a small minority know of these secret locations, almost as if it was their own personal private property. The basic nature of the bothy will deter all but the dedicated lover of the wild places. Don't we have so little in this life that is truly rewarding, away from all the trapping of internet, crime, litter, the 9 to 5 grind, and so on. To stay in a bothy is to find a little piece of heaven in this mad world.

4
 DaveHK 22 Jan 2019
In reply to Removed UserDeleted bagger:

> My experience is that some bothies are, often due to ease of access, are popular. This can lead to misuse. But this is not a resent development. 

That's my experience too but then I'm not a particularly frequent bothy user.

 Ridge 22 Jan 2019
In reply to Flinticus:

> When I stopped believing in god etc. I left the church, I didn't expect it to adapt to my change.

Have you thought about the Church of England? Belief in God optional.

 The New NickB 23 Jan 2019
In reply to pneame:

Nice article, reminds me of staying at Barnmouth Cottage after climbing the Old Man of Hoy. Met Jeff Clark on that trip in 2000. Some friends went the following year and asked if there was anywhere they could watch the football that night (I think it was the famous Germany 1 England 5 game), the answer being that the pub is at the other end of the island and doesn't have a TV so they had better watch it at his house.

 OMR 23 Jan 2019
In reply to ScraggyGoat:

MBA split internally? Depends how you define split. Any organisation of more than one person is going to have internal differences of opinion and the MBA is no exception. But in the main we act as grown-ups, make decisions and get on with it. There was a motion at the last AGM to boycott any organisation which promoted bothy use (I'm paraphrasing: I can't remember the exact wording): it was advertised before the AGM and discussed at the AGM; people could vote by proxy or in person, and it was rejected on a vote open to all members. (Indeed, a contrary motion that we appoint an education officer was passed.) So we all move on, working together as we normally do. There may be disagreements on individual issues, but I see no evidence of rival factions within the MBA.

As for trust between MBA and land-owners being damaged: there is little evidence of this that I'm aware of. (I'm a trustee of the MBA by the way.) We continue to work with landowners on the maintenance of bothies, have added last year to the number we have been entrusted to look after, and hope to add more in future, with work hopefully starting this year on a major project in the Cairngorms.

 yorkshire_lad2 24 Jan 2019
In reply to pneame:

Interesting article, and lively comments! 

My 2-pence-worth, based on the fact that the article is in the NY Times, so (USA) east coast oriented, so parallels to the Appalachian Trail (which I've walked and also participated in trail maintenance crews, though not in the last couple of years) are not unreasonable:

  • on the AT, there are have been several publicatons (most notably a couple of National Geographic articles and the Bill Bryson book) which have led to a spike in traffic the following year or so, but it tailed off
  • as someone else pointed out, on the AT, stretching 2,150 miles from Georgia to Maine, there is a system of trail shelters, mostly wooden 3-sided, some more glamourous than others, in what was conceived of as a wilderness corridor (but with increasing encroachment of 21st century civilisation such as cellphone masts, not forgetting the views from the top of Bear Mountain i.e. NYC!), so the idea of bothying is hardly a new phenomenon: I suspect the articles selling point is more that it's the idea of being Brit/Scottish, and somehow wild (but a different 'wild' to Maine???) that is making the appeal of the article becuase the idea itself is hardly new to east-coasters.

 

Post edited at 09:53
 Pero 25 Jan 2019
In reply to ScraggyGoat

> ....but the presence of a bothy and the recent trend for widespread promotion precludes 'lonely'. 

Everyone knows where Shenavall is. I stayed there last year. Had the place to myself for the two nights. Had the Fisherfield round to myself as well. 

For two days I never saw another living soul.

1
 StuDoig 25 Jan 2019
In reply to OMR:

In fairness to Scraggy, I spend a fair bit of time in bothies and chat round the fire is always very split on the issue, and a lot of the folk are MBA members (or at least claim to be) so possibly less clear cut than AGM motions suggest?  My impression is that there is definitely a distinct divide in opinion.

Looking through bothy books you see a LOT of references to the bothy bible, and I've met quite a few bothiers who are only there because they've read the book so it's definitely upped the number of folk using them.  Whether they can absorb the numbers as time goes on - who knows.

I always feel very mixed about it - I love bothying and wouldn't like to deny the experience to anyone, but too many folk using a limited resource can destroy what is appealing about them in the first place.  A hard balance to strike.

cheers!  Stu

 

PS your efforts with corrour toilets are much appreciated!

 StuDoig 25 Jan 2019
In reply to Pero:

Very lucky then!  I've stayed there on a number of occasions and never had it to myself and more than once found it completely rammed!

Away from Sheneval, I've noticed a lot of references to the bothy bible in bothy books along the lines that folk would never have thought of bothying before - it's definitely let to a surge in use.  Whether that is sustained, who knows.......

 

Cheers!

 

Stu

Removed User 26 Jan 2019
In reply to StuDoig:

> Looking through bothy books you see a LOT of references to the bothy bible, and I've met quite a few bothiers who are only there because they've read the book so it's definitely upped the number of folk using them.  Whether they can absorb the numbers as time goes on - who knows.

Really? Since the the Bothy Bible was published I've not seen or heard a reference to it in a bothy. The only place I've come across comments is in forums where a curtain amount of moral panic swirls around publicity of bothies.

 

Post edited at 09:06
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 richprideaux 26 Jan 2019
In reply to Removed UserDeleted bagger:

> Really? Since the the Bothy Bible was published I've not seen or heard a reference to it in a bothy. The only place I've come across comments is in forums where a curtain amount of moral panic swirls around publicity of bothies.

It's all over YouTube, especially with vloggers and outdoor adventurists who have cottoned on to the idea that 'bothy' is a search term they can exploit:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bothy

It seems to be the month of bothying in the press:

https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2019/jan/25/mountain-rescue-why-bothies-...

 

 OMR 26 Jan 2019
In reply to StuDoig:

Oh there's very definitely differences of opinion; what I didn't like was the implication (maybe just my inference) that the MBA was split a la Tory Party over Brexit, with warring factions. We may disagree, but we still speak and I've heard no hint of breakaway groups.

I think there's a lot more talk than action about the Bothy Bible, but I have met people in bothies who had first heard of bothies through the book - and a delightful pair they were, so thrilled at the world they were discovering.

It's always been a difficult balancing act, sharing pleasures versus keeping them as they were but, the legal niceties of being a charity aside, I tend towards sharing. Sometimes it means more popular bothies can be crowded, but keeping people away, whether actively or by secrecy, always seemed to me to be against the whole ethos of bothy life. Always room for one more...

 silverdarling 28 Jan 2019
In reply to Sean Kelly:

When the RSPB decided certain osprey nesting sites would become public knowledge part of their intention was to confine tourist activity to those nests and away from other, hushhush nests. RSPB don't promote osprey sites beyond the usual suspects even now the osprey population has grown.

Twice (at least) MBA published lists of all their bothies and their locations. In leaflet form before, and on their website (long predating the Bothy Bible) now.  If you wanted to know you could find out. That's not really 'secrecy' but it is different from promoting bothies for your own personal gain.


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