Ben Nevis with 5/6 year old.

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 pcassels 17 Dec 2019

My daughter has requested attempting Ben Nevis next year, she will be 6 in May, we would be looking at going May/June. My main concern is that she would get bored taking the pony track. How serious is the CMD arete? Is a wild camp possible to split it across 2 days. She has experience hillwalking and scrambling and much prefers exposed/scrambly routes. She has also requested Crib Gogh and Sharp Edge.

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 GrahamD 17 Dec 2019
In reply to pcassels:

Most of the CMD is a 'boring' slog of a walk in in any case.  In May there will be snow on the top of the normal route in any case and the bonus of a pub at the bottom. 

 Mark Bull 18 Dec 2019
In reply to pcassels:

The Ben is a lot of ascent for a 6 year old - even more if you do the CMD (about 1500m). CMD is easy scrambling (definitely easier that Crib Goch) but not so easy to escape from. A 2-dayer would be possible but there is a lack of obvious campsites with accessible water any higher than the CIC hut. You also need a longer good weather window.

I would focus on shorter scrambly days for the time being - Sharp Edge would be a good start. I suspect she will enjoy the Ben more in a year or two's time. If you don't already, I would consider carrying a short rope and a couple of slings to protect her if necessary on scrambles: short legs can be a problem in some places! 

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 Tringa 18 Dec 2019
In reply to pcassels:

Obviously we don't know the capabilities of your daughter but how would the hillwalking and scrambling has she done already compare to the Ben? What is the longest she has walked and the greatest ascent she has done?

I agree with Mark - the Ben is a lot of ascent - it is over 250m higher than Snowdon and over 350m higher than Scarfell Pike.

Dave

1
Rigid Raider 18 Dec 2019
In reply to pcassels:

Blimey, at the age of six I was cutting my teeth on small Welsh mountains like Cnicht and Moel Siabod. The Ben would have been a bit big, I think.

 wintertree 18 Dec 2019
In reply to Tringa:

> I agree with Mark - the Ben is a lot of ascent - it is over 250m higher than Snowdon and over 350m higher than Scarfell Pike.

Its the slog more than the ascent spread over two days that’d put me off.  An active youngling that is well fed, watered and rested is limited much more by their mindset than the effort.  Are they happy?  Are they having fun?  Are they involved in decision making?  Are they warm and dry? If any of these go sour on anything but easy terrain with a simple, safe walk out that’s going to be a nightmare.  Even a stubborn child in a simple situation can push a patient person to the limits...   

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 GerM 18 Dec 2019
In reply to Tringa:

Even comparing heights doesn't tell the full story, given start height and nature of routes. Numbers I've seen suggest ascents as 1350m for Ben Nevis, 900m to 1100m for Scafell Pike and 700m to 1000m for yr Wyddfa. So comparing Wyddfa via the Pyg at around 700, Ben Nevis from Glen Nevis is not far off double the ascent.

 McHeath 18 Dec 2019
In reply to pcassels:

I'd  weigh this up very carefully; it could all go well, but If your daughter has an overall negative experience (exhaustion, cold and wet, blsters or just plain bored) it could put her off for years. Waiting a couple of years as Mark Bull suggests could really pay dividends. Maybe a shorter trip in Glen Nevis with something scrambly to a smaller summit with a view of the Ben, followed by a picnic at the burn, dam building, bird spotting, whatever she enjoys?

 GrahamD 18 Dec 2019
In reply to Mark Bull:

> The Ben is a lot of ascent for a 6 year old -

Lily did it as a 6 year old (normal route).  Burnt us all off on the way back to the pub !

The only thing I would say, aside from carrying appropriate food, warm drinks etc. is plan where you can do discrete toilet stops.

 wercat 18 Dec 2019
In reply to pcassels:

Sharp Edge is fine on a dry still day for a six year old, assuming competent adults n charge - We took even younger (age 4) kids across, with a rope and helmet.  However, the difference between Sharp Edge on that day and a day when the rock is wet and slippery would make the latter occasion very unsafe with a six year old.  Families have come to grief there, occasionally with fatalities, in unsuitable conditions.  So choose the occasion well and don't force a day if the rock is going to be slippery.

Post edited at 11:20
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In reply to pcassels:

I'm not sure who's disliking all the sensible advice here. Mark's on the button as normal.

Yes you could do it, she might love it. On a good day a suitably motivated kid would be fine - if tired at the end.

But it's worth reiterating that it's a massive day for small legs so has potential to go pear shaped and end up as less than fun. Also the standard route could be considered a boring plod with little in the way of variety (a key to keeping kids engaged in my experience). It's not really ideal as a two-dayer, and with a 6-year-old in mind I'd say that camping would likely be more effort than it was worth unless you made that the main objective.

Via the CMD Arete is a much more interesting route, but also a huge one compared to up-and-down the tourist track. And even the TT is way more ascent than most popular UK hill days (by definition really).

Why not go for smaller but more enjoyable things first, see how she's getting on, and then make the call?

Same for Crib Goch and Sharp Edge, but for different reasons. They're straightforward as scrambles go, but both highly consequential. With a child that young I would be considering roping them up. And of course only doing them in dry, calm weather. With those caveats in mind, is it worth it? Why not do easier and less potentially fatal hill days for now and build her up?

Unless you feel she's already at that level? Not impossible, I'm sure some children that young are sufficiently competent, reliable, coordinated and motivated - but none that I've met. However, if you knew this already then you wouldn't have felt the need to ask here.

  

Rigid Raider 18 Dec 2019
In reply to pcassels:

My Dad's best friend who became a climbing mentor to us is a good example of how to put your kids off for life - they hauled the young kids up all kinds of mountains in all kinds of weathers, camping in wild and wooly places but when the teenage years arrived the two kids rebelled and never went up another mountain.

OP pcassels 18 Dec 2019
In reply to Tringa:

We go out fairly regularly most weekends. Her longest days out would be Scafell pike from Seathwaite and Fairfield horseshoe. Scrambling she's fine striding edge and Jack's Rake as her biggest.

OP pcassels 18 Dec 2019
In reply to wintertree:

When she wants to do something she will, shes encouraged to set herself a challange and then together we work towards it. Weve drove past on a clear day and made it clear what it entails and she's still game. Obviously if we've had a poor winter and haven't got out much if would be postponed.

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OP pcassels 18 Dec 2019
In reply to wercat:

It would have to be a perfect day for us to attempt it, it wouldn't be the first time we've turned back/changed our mind on a route the to weather.

 Tringa 18 Dec 2019
In reply to pcassels:

The weather is also something to consider. While any hill can have bad weather at any time of the year and I'm sure you would not go if the forecast was bad but the weather on the Ben in May could be 'interesting'.

The last time I did it was early in August a few years ago and we had complete calm, clear skies and warm sunshine, wind you had to lean into, driving rain and sleet, and visibility of about 10 yards and still a bit of snow at the top.

Dave

1
 elliot.baker 18 Dec 2019
In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

Slightly off topic but if you rope up on a scramble like Crib Goch, are you roping the child to yourself? If so do you have to brace yourself while they do tricky bits incase they fall so you can be sure to catch them and not fall yourself? I feel like if you were doing a tricky bit and a 6 year old slipped at that point you wouldn't be in a position to hold them.

And this assumes you are strong enough to hold their fall with just your own strength and balance?

Or have I completely missed the point and you actually rope them up to temporary gear or something?

Cheers

2
 Heike 18 Dec 2019
In reply to pcassels:

I would suggest making it  a two day expedition. Walk up to beyond the CIC. Have high camp, then walk up to the col beyond the CMD and head to the top and then down the tourist track.

Taxi back to North Face carpark. 

Have done stuff like that with our wee man at this age and he enjoyed it...as long as there is enough Haribo! 

Post edited at 13:37
In reply to elliot.baker:

Sorry, yes, we're off topic but... I'm talking short-roping, guide-style. But I'm definitely not endorsing this. Quite the opposite.

With our girls I'd rather wait til they're a couple of years older, and more reliable, and do these routes as scrambling hill walks rather than as slightly sketchy 'climbs'.

But some children are way more competent at a young age, and their parents more confident in them. I know Heike's boy is, for instance

 wercat 18 Dec 2019
In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

we short roped one up Swirral Edge as a toddler - carried him up to the start and he crawled all the way up and proudly walked over to the summit in his fleece suit.  It was a perfect day mind you.

On Jack's Rake, at 4, when I unroped him at the top he told me to take special care (for myself) now "as you are unroped".

Post edited at 14:41
 John Kelly 18 Dec 2019
In reply to pcassels:

Does anyone have info on how kids bones growth plates react to these bigger challengers

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OP pcassels 18 Dec 2019
In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

Ive only ever short roped her for the down climb on Striding Edge, I sat at the top and used an indirect belay with no issues. Jack's Rake she was unroped, we had a guide and he made the call after seeing her scramble. She climbs and boulders so it would be a hill walk rather than a sketchy climb.

OP pcassels 18 Dec 2019
In reply to John Kelly:

Ive tried researching that online without much luck, obviously I don't want her to do any long term damage. I work on if its causing her any pain we cut back/take a rest week/book a go appointment, so far no issues. Don't get me wrong we always have a meltdown a mile in but once we are past that no real problems.

In reply to pcassels:

sounds good!

 Matt Podd 18 Dec 2019
In reply to pcassels:

My son did the Ben as a 6yr old and got on fine. He'd been up Snowdon at 5 and said he wanted to go up something bigger - so we did!

Plenty of bribes and a descent weather forcast, we went up the pony track and he was motivated by the posative comments of the other walkers.

 tjdodd 18 Dec 2019
In reply to pcassels:

> Don't get me wrong we always have a meltdown a mile in but once we are past that no real problems.

You should be ashamed of yourself - saying "we" when I am sure you mean "I".  Next time I suggest your daughter takes some sweeties that she can give you to avoid you getting in a tantrum.  And I suggest she buys you a cute furry animal rucksac that you can cuddle when things get tough.

Other than that it sounds like she is more than capable of guiding you up Ben Nevis and hopefully she won't get too bored with you holding her back.  Make sure she practices her navigation to ensure she guides you off the summit successfully.

Post edited at 16:02
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 McHeath 18 Dec 2019
In reply to John Kelly:

Messner was taken by his father up his first 3000er aged four; it didn't stunt him as far as I can judge ... 

 Heike 18 Dec 2019
In reply to McHeath:

So was I, I didn't do me any harm (apart from an addiction to climb mountains....) So be careful what you wish for...

 Heike 18 Dec 2019

My final advice would be, you know your child best. Kids can do remarkable things when they actually want to. So if it is her thing, go for it! As you said you would keep it for a nice day. That makes a huge difference IMHO, a camping trip adds to the adventure, but hey, whatever! Enjoy. And let us know how you got on! We always take a bothy bag, do you, too? Makes all the difference.

 biggianthead 18 Dec 2019
In reply to pcassels:

My 7 year old climbed Sgurr nan Gillean and  loved it.  You just need to know your child's limits (and know when to fight another day)

OP pcassels 18 Dec 2019
In reply to Heike:

I always carry a storm shelter and thermal blanket, used both, not for emergencies. 

 John Kelly 18 Dec 2019
In reply to McHeath:

My kids have done a lot of walking, my youngest has some issues with his feet, it's called 'severus' it's to do with growth plates, painful but you grow out of it apparently, I sometimes wonder if we did too much, he was the youngest and as a consequence did more at an earlier age than his siblings. 

 Mark Bull 18 Dec 2019
In reply to pcassels:

Another option you might consider would be the easier (Grade 1) variation of Ledge Route: slightly harder scrambling that the CMD but not such a massive day out. 

 CurlyStevo 18 Dec 2019
In reply to pcassels:

Glaring obvious but may can still be full on winter especially above 900 meters or so. Go for second weekend in june for the ben in summer nick or be flexible IMO (early may could still be perfect on a good forecast). Expect summit snow as others have said and make sure your nav is up to scratch if the forecast isn't perfect.

Also prepare with easier peaks with less serious cornice issues then you can know you're limits. Its easy to fall through a cornice on the ben in a white out if you don't know what you're doing btw. That would be higher risk early may than early june.

As ever in Scotland being flexible to the forecast is the key.

It's also worth knowing but on a good high pressure forecast if it is still snowy up high unless its above 4 deg the snow could still be hard ice (wet bulb effect). You'd be wanting the max temp on the day to be atleast 6 deg on the summit if its pretty snowy for the snow to be soft enough to be safe without crampons and an ice axe, or recent conditions to be predominant thaw. I guess that's why mid June is more of a safe bet, less to judge if its safe or not.

Post edited at 23:38
 bouldery bits 19 Dec 2019
In reply to pcassels:

Obvious troll is obvious.

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OP pcassels 19 Dec 2019
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Thankyou for this. Winter conditions are a no go, I don't have the experience to deal with them even without her to consider. June it is then.

OP pcassels 19 Dec 2019
In reply to Mark Bull:

I will look into it thankyou. I'm local to the Lake District so it's easier to plan days out that challange her but i know she's capable of. With this im having to research without any local knowledge so any information is greatly appreciated. I want her to enjoy it without setting her up to fail, if that makes sense.

 henwardian 19 Dec 2019
In reply to pcassels:

CMD is pretty straightforward. But if you are worried about how it would be with her, best to go do it yourself first and see what you think - it's completely a judgement call and nobody on UKC can make that call for you because it's yours to make

When I was a kid my parents always took us to the Austrian Alps for the summer, my sister was the same age as your daughter and my parents basically did 2 things:
1) Put her in a kid carrier backpack if they felt it was getting too exposed. Also has the advantage that if she does totally conk out on you, you can carry her down more easily.

2) Make a rudimentary harness from a rope and put kid on one end and adult on the other if they were happy for us to keep climbing but wanted a bit of additional safety if we messed up (basically short roping but with a little child the safety is in one direction and you don't need to do nearly so much flicking the rope over rock spikes and stuff because the kid is so small and light).

Main thing is not to make the mistake of thinking that because she seems happy and confident on exposed terrain that she is safe enough, there is loads of science out there proving that children don't really become able to properly assess risk till at least 14.

For sure you could do it in 2 days but if she is fit and does a lot of outdoors stuff already, that really shouldn't be necessary, just an early start (though it will feel like a pretty long day for a 6 yr old).

 fmck 19 Dec 2019
In reply to pcassels:

I took my daughter when she was 4 years old up Goat Fell on Arran. I decided that the minute she said she was tired I would stick her on my back and head down to the pub at the bottom. The wife could continue with the two older boys to the summit.

As it turned out I made the mistake of giving her far too many sweets. I didn't get to the pub and she didn't shut up all the way back in the car. The wife and I were knackered and just wanted to go to bed but she was still hyper at half ten at night!

In reply to pcassels:

My brother did it at six with no issues. I was 8. In my experience children can walk any distance at all as long as motivation holds out. If she’s pestering you to do it I don’t see the problem.

jcm

 iccle_bully 21 Dec 2019
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I have amazing memories of doing the Ben with my family when I was 6. I remember it being tiring but keeping going and feeling amazing when we got to the top. It was a glorious hot day and I ran all the way back down and then sat in the river at the bottom to cool off, playing in the water waiting for the rest of the family.

Many of our holidays were spent like this, and some of my earliest memories are playing and learning to navigate on Kinder Scout.

As adults my older brother is not a mountain addict whereas I am but we both like to stay fit and healthy.

Sounds like you and your daughter are making amazing memories that she will treasure when she's older, teaching her lessons like resilience and mental strength, skills like physical agility and navigation all of which will be valuble to her as she gets older.

Be safe and have fun!! 

Post edited at 07:44

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