UKH

Right to Roam are organising a mass Trespass on the anniversary of the Kinder Trespass https://www.righttoroam.org.uk/everybody-welcome

I hear that Vixen Tor is lovely at this time of year?

I had to make a choice between Hilltalk and Rocktalk, but this is an issue for all outdoor users, Climbers, Walkers, Paddlers, Swimmers etc.

and especially cavers

Noted. Still so much progress to be made for open access to wild spaces for quiet enjoyment by all of us. 

Sadly this is becoming very topical, CROW act etc and also Derbyshire police and drones shaming people (and fining them) for exercising outdoors based on people's postcodes not their biosecurity practices. Let's not forget legislation in progress to provide potential prison sentences for peaceful protests, if they may have "inconvenienced" anyone.

Would the trespasses then, still work today?

The Kinder Trespass took place under far more repressive legislation than today, and a judiciary that accepted that protestors getting a kicking by gamekeepers and estate staff, followed by a kicking off police was pefectly acceptable behaviour. There was also no way of getting the level of publicity there is today, and certainly no social media to distribute content and images.

Where it might fail is how it's perceived by the public. Sadly the effects off mass public access to wild spaces will be seen as a negative by many, (including me), as it'll just mean more places will be trashed by morons who abandon tents, rubbish and excrement, start bonfires, smash glass all over the place and attack animals and livestock.

Yes its a sad state of affairs. I was dreading the tourists returning to our corner of Wales and lo and behold almost immediately after the travel restrictions were lifted the honey pots were covered in litter. On the other hand it makes me really happy to see so many people out enjoying the beautiful weather and the hills. If we want people to treat our shared spaces with more respect we need to do more than just grumble: as a society we have to put time, effort and money into educating people about upland environments and lnt ethics. When was the last time you heard anything about the countryside code? It's just not promoted anymore. That's not to imply that every litterbug isn't responsible for their own actions of course, and I think all of us individually should be going out prepared to challenge shitty behaviour.

Much of our land access is defined by a force who invaded us nearly 1000 years ago in 1066, and many of the boundaries set then still control us now.

Using the justification that the majority of the population cannot be trusted as justification to keep them off the land is a tactic long used by the people who control the land. They sow the myth that someone may come and set up a tent on someones front Lawn in Suburbia, and use this as justification to have Trespass laws that can prevent people from accessing huge areas of the country.

Whereas prior to 1066 the UK was a democracy with access rights for all?

I agree with that, and personally I'd like to see landowners held accountable for what happens on their land, vicarios liability for wildlife crimes top of the list.

However it's not about tents on lawns in suburbia, it's about tents, rubbish and antisocial behavior in fragile environments with little or no police presence. Thats what concerns me.

Landowners are responsible for what happens on their land, such as clearing up fly tipping and the like.

I think we completely need to reimagine ( social sciences bollocks word) how we see the land and boundaries. 

But preventing people accessing land because of a few gits is not equitable and counterproductive, in that the gits will ignore the laws anyway, so the only people who lose out are the law abiding folk.

When ever I stand at the Cavendish Memorial at Bolton Abbey and look around, I wonder why it should be that the Duchy of Devonshire should be able to tell me where I can walk.

Same with the moors above Todmorden, why should a purveyor of Polyester slacks be able to tell me where I can and cannot walk and climb.

Because no one has effectively addressed it. When you have green lanes, bridleways, public fp, fp etc... most of which stem from before the internal combustion engine. 

However be careful what you wish for, Scandinavian style right to roam is good, but different. You have no right to across any farmed or worked land, imagine the uk without it's network of paths, many cutting right across fields etc... 

Yes, you could well be correct. It would be nice to understand how other countries manage access, then one could appreciate how good or bad what we have is.

I believe that one reason minorities in this countries do not access the countryside more is that they are uncertain where they can go and not go, which is only like when I am say in France, I am hesitant to walk into a Woodland, because I may be trespassing (the fact the French can be a bit trigger happy is also a deterrent)

What depresses me is how so many people are prepared to tug forelocks and say: 'It's their land they can do what they want with it'.

On the 26th I will peacefully trespass on a few unused fields not so far away from the Walshaw w**ker

It is a state of mind, just think how the words Trespass and Loiter actually make most people feel*.

You come across as a person with a strong mind, however if you are walking where you should not and are challenged, is it shoulders back and look them in the eye, or possibly the instinctive, eyes down and apologise?

* EDIT think to feel.

I'll be naked at the time 

I need mind bleach for that.

Naked bull's crack.

After you with the mind bleach Steve.

Hard to believe in 2021, 40 years ago you needed to know the difference between paths on paper OS maps, it's some what different now.

I think quite a few don't appreciate  right to roam only applies on access land 

I agree it's not obvious, but that's because everything is a modification of a pre victorian system, when footpaths existed to allow people to cross another's land on their way to work. Land access for leisure didn't exist. 

You can use old census records to locate footpaths in some areas, if you follow how the farms are listed, it is very often the route the census collector walked, which would be the footpaths connecting the farms, but we digress.

... and are known to use gin traps (though that was a few years ago, availible in any good hardwear store). Normany has a good network of green lanes though

While the majority go to honey pot locations. My wife and I do a lot of walking on not so popular public rights of way and other than the odd (sic) local hardly ever see anyone.

I'm afraid that the tide of human filth is unstoppable. An overcrowded planet with the outdoor and tourist industries promoting getting out there and destroying the very reason for travelling in the first place. We need more lock downs or maybe a meteorite.... 

Alright Travis Bickle, maybe go back on the day shift for a while.

Yeah let's have some mass death! You're volunteering to go first I assume?

Can't help thinking there's a risk this will just backfire, and I'm not sure it's necessarily a good thing to be associating Extinction Rebellion with the campaign to reform access rights.

Can imagine the pictures in the newspaper now with a bunch of 'everyone welcome' signs that have blown off whatever they were stuck to now contributing to the litter problem, or a bunch of broken fences. 

They also forgot to mention in their guide to trespass that if you stay when asked to leave the landowner may use reasonable force against you, which might be a nasty surprise for some...

I imagine the 'solidarity with farmers' angle will have pretty limited mileage depending on the farmer too... It also seems to characterise abuse from 'ramblers' towards 'land workers' as "people who are expressing frustration at then iniquity of the landownership system towards the people who also labour under it", and although it does discourage this I'm not sure that's an accurate way to characterise all abuse they receive, which probably has many different intentions behind it... 

Can't they read maps and see all those green dashed lines on them?

How else does anyone know where you can and can't go?

What’s wrong with polyester slacks?, I have several pairs in nice pastel colours 👖

I took my son there a few times when he was young.  We used to scramble up to the top via the chimney.  and mess about around the base bouldering, long before I ever heard the term. It is indeed a shame we are not allowed there any more.  Happily there are thousands of other wonderful places to climb on Dartmoor though. 

I suspect that if you tried to educate the countryside despoilers I think a smack in the mouth might offend you.

Possibly think of how you feel in a country where you are not born with cultural differences, and generally not wanting to offend or get into trouble, also people not "into" the outdoors may not even now about maps.

I consider that the green dashed lines tell me where I cannot go, think about it.

"However be careful what you wish for, Scandinavian style right to roam is good, but different. You have no right to across any farmed or worked land, imagine the uk without it's network of paths, many cutting right across fields etc... "

A really daft point... no one is going to be removing footpaths because of improvements of access on what really often should already be CRoW land.

It's not really, if some future government decided to model it on Scandinavia, uplands and forest would open up, but the trade off could be less access elsewhere. Footpaths cost farmers, in terms of lost crops, fencing, gates, clearing etc.  Or the fact folk seem unable to control their pets and stock are killed, dog poo is poisonous to farm animals..... A farming lobby could present what they consider a strong case., where they give access to more in some areas, reduce elsewhere. 

Feel free to keep digging but the brits love their PRoW, they are going nowhere.

don;t forget linen O/S maps!

I'd agree they are great, they take you to some bizarre and amazing places. But I don't think there is an access model in the world, that has the best of all worlds. 

I'd argue uk access is more challenged than most, high population density, combined with a society that gives most folk sufficient non work time to use them, plus the wealth to travel around. 

Honey pots just need a bit of good design.

I used to live near a honey pot in Surrey, and 95% of the visitors would arrive at the car park, get their ice cream, walk to the grass 50m away, sit down enjoy the view, and mostly put their litter in the bins provided. Occasionally, the more intrepid ones would go for a walk OMG, get lost, consult their phones, ask the locals and get a friendly if slightly patronising lesson in basic orienteering.

Meanwhile the rest of us got to walk in peace in the huge labyrinth of paths available in the area. Everybody happy.

I passed through Lulworth at the weekend and was really impressed by the well-designed café facilities and the 300m cobblestone path up the hill so they could take photos of the bay.

You reckon? I've seen an increase in blocked rights of way, and slashed budgets for rights of way officers.

Protecting, (and increasing) PRoW might be more productive than opening up more areas for wild shitting and fly camping.

the English love their PRoW. Here in Scotland I have almost unlimited responsible access to the outdoors.

I agree with that but it's mainly specific illegal abuses (that can be and usually are challenged). I agree council cuts have made the challenge harder. If people care about such things they should join organisations that lobby and act (like the Ramblers or the BMC). Maybe if living in a rural area stand as a local councillor.

I disagreed with summo, who was talking about major quid pro quo legislative change, swapping say agricultural PRoW for more upland CRoW... which seems plain ridiculous to me.

Scots do sometimes walk south of the border you know.

I think people not born here are as capable of working it out as anyone else if they want to. The real reason most don't is because its culturally 'just not what they do' although it's changing and no longer rare to see non white people in the countryside.

Sorry, I don't get that.

PROws are an English/Welsh thing, not British. Scotland doesn't have comparable PROWs. While access is in principle free ,  in practice it is often harder below open country. Summons has a point. Access is very good in England generally. 

There's a talk organised by British Canoeing on Thursday evening, 8pm, that may be of interest to folks on this thread.  It's being streamed on 'Facebook Live' and Youtube, and I guess it'll probably stay up on youtube after the event.  Looks like it'll be very interesting.

https://www.facebook.com/britishcanoeing/posts/10159871612769363
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtasxLuaS0c&ab_channel=BritishCanoeingT...

Going back to Steve's original point, there seems to be an assumption that people from minorities aren't born here, yet we must be into the third and fourth generation of British citizens in respect to many 'immigrant' communities.

Regarding PRoWs being marked on maps, if I were new to a country I'd feel more reassured to see a line on a map that I could stick to than just walking off into open country where I might get challenged (or worse) by an irate landowner.

Edit: In some cultures heading off into the 'wilderness' might be seen as dangerous due to the environment, large animals or IEDs...