UKH

"Drivers of 4x4 vehicles can continue to use off-road tracks in the Lake District after a judge dismissed a legal challenge from campaigners who argued the vehicles polluted the national park and endangered cyclists and ramblers."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/aug/24/campaigners-lose-legal-chal...

Deep. Joy.

GLEAM did not produce robust evidence for heir case and I think the judgement is correct. 4 by 4s /motor-cycles can continue to exercise their legal right to use  byways and if there is a specific issue a traffic regulation order can potentially be applied. 

Sounds like the law has been correctly applied here. Whether one agrees with the law that allows this is a whole other matter.

No doubt you're correct, and I probably shouldn't have an opinion, given I don't live in the lakes, but green laning always seems to me about spoiling everyone else's enjoyment of the countryside just so some dipsticks in camouflage jackets can make swamps out of byways open to all traffic, usually in convoy.

Live and let live, it is 75 miles of track out of >2000 miles available. 

It is not beyond imagination for a group to take offence at and campaign against those shouty, jangly sweary folk in bright clothes who insist on painting the crags white every dry spell.

Agreed.  Changes in the law to ban this sort of use are not a matter for the judiciary.  The judiciary just interpret the law as it stands.

Sorry, please replace folk with dipsticks, more in keeping with the witch hunt./villification.

Our local byway has had a TRO put in banning 4x4s; a few months ago when walking past the entrance an old Landy turned up.  It's bodywork was adorned with an aluminium ladder, a winch, metal running boards, a snorkel (exactly where I wouldn't want a snorkel if I was driving and ever had to turn right), a small red propane tank, an IP66 double 13A socket,  a 16A blue commando socket and various other parephanlaia along with a giant tent or other flat packed object on the roof.

The driver spent 30 minutes staring at the new, narrow gate that's been fitted (the TRO allows motorbikes still), made a couple of phone calls and skulked off.  I assume they were warning their customers off and were wishing they'd followed the content of their marketing website "These roads are checked regularly for changes to legislation and condition."

Technical driving off-road is great fun; but I'd far rather see it in dedicated courses, preferably inside old quarries, than strewn all over the hills.  Then you can get some tanks or half-tracks in there as well... 

As with DaveHK's post, I think that a reclassification of the route or a TRO is the way to go about changing these things, and whilst I agree with Gleam's aims, I don't think they went about it appropriately, so the judge's ruling is no surprise to me.  

I noticed last time I was in Little Langdale that they had resurfaced one of the tracks which was previously popular with the greenlaning experience companies. It seems like an effective deterrent by taking all the "fun" away. Following the resurfacing the lane could be easily navigated by a family car, and I doubt many punters would find the experience worth the cash.

I think a few climbers and hillwalkers would be surprised to read the Codes of Conduct published by various greenlaning groups. Pretty much all the sentiments correspond to what you would find on a climbing website. The fact is, of course, that there are always people who  will not respect their own activity's  etiquette rules whether the rubber is on four wheels or two feet.

One of my club's huts is in Little Langdale.  Haven't been there this year for some odd reason...

So which bit has been resurfaced?  The bit down to the ford?  The bit up the hill, from the ford towards Hodge Close?

I must be in a very small demographic as a climber, MTB/road cyclist, 4x4 greenlaner, kitesurfer, skateboarder, punk and motorbiker.

I've heard the moaning from all sides, drivers hating stiffbacks and Motorbikes , beach-goers hating kiters, everyone hating skating punks, but ramblers are the most miserable of the lot, moaning about horses mtbs 4x4's and motorbikes.

As said above, 2000miles of footpath to wander on in complete freedom, and they want the 75miles of Byways to themselves as well.

When the 4x4's are gone they'll target e-bikes and then pedal bikes, all while driving en masse in smug satisfaction to the lakes in their SUV's and skoda estates

I was with you.....until you bad-mouthed skoda estates   

I was with you until the last two words.

I thought that might get a reaction🤣🤣🤣

And mountain bikers should stick to trail centres, walkers to parks and climbers to climbing walls. 

The whole 75/2000 miles thing is total bs.

It's like saying "you've got a whole garden, I only want to crap on your doorstep"

Closer to home 4x4s just about destroyed Roych Clough and Long Causeway, comparing that to the damage done by climbers (chalk - apparently) is just laughable.

Yes, and the "it's 4x4s they want banning now, so it'll be climbers next" is risible bollocks.

I walk the fells to get away from the noise and sight of all motorised traffic. They have the entire road network of the UK to use - all x thousands of miles of it. Is it so bad to ask for what little quiet land remains to be kept that way?

I don't have a map to hand, but one of the tracks leading away from Hodge Close quarry, and also the track between Hallgarth and Tilberthwaite farm.

What is risible is to think we are beyond reproach. 

The damage to Robin Hoods Stride a few years ago bears witness to this.

All it takes is for it to become fashionable amongst the "friends of the lake district" types to criticise the activities of any activity and it spells trouble.

I have no interest in 4x4 driving. There are chinks in the armour of every sport/activity and climbing has more than its fair share. 

I did really like wintertrees comment above about restricting activity to old quarrys. Ever been for a stroll around Tilberthwaite and Little Langdale? 

As I said, I’d rather see it in old queries than in the hills.  You’ll forgive me I hope that I assumed the reader would be able to apply a little bit of nuance when thinking about old quarries in the hills in a tourist heavy national park...

There’s no shortage of quarries elsewhere in the country; in particular ones that are sunk on all 4 sides have benefits for noise control.

 A facile argument if ever there was one.  All activities are not equal; I don’t recall any great fuss about pistol shooting being restricted to dedicated facilities until that was banned for other reasons not relevant here.  Likewise most archery is limited to dedicated facilities inside and outside.  I was going to say you never see people golfing in the fells, but someone was on Sunday at Bollihope...  The issues around each activity are different.  If the number of people who go climbing all went green laneing instead I can’t see it being tolerated for more than a couple of days; it’s a much smaller number of people yet it has comparable or greater impact on others.

Good luck with that in the Lakes, flightpath to the Costas, US, Glasgow, Manchester, etc, etc...

Maybe not but they are using the road network and, unless there is  some legislation similar to the NERC Act 2006 which drastically curtailed the creation of new byways, this will remain so. There is some strong support for this type of  approach - mainly in the Lords - but current Government is unwilling to, literally, go down this route. 

What has destroyed a lot of the Peak Byway character is DCC's tarmacing and 'resurfacing' activities.

If you can't achieve that with the current split of footpaths, bridleways and byways you may need to brush up on your mapreading skills

Let's off-road!

I was going to post one of those FS vids yesterday but decided not to after checking them out again; isn't the canned laughter dated and annoying? A great shame... Thank god for The Office in that regard, as in many others.

You sir are clearly a wrong un. 

I think that was deliberate. Back when DCC still had some money, they set out to sanitise the white roads in the White Peak, presumably they did the same further North. The trails are still 'boring' - hardly ever see 4x4s any more (although you still get a few motor bikes). It's not a big deal in the White Peak I'd say - at the moment anyway.

The thread should have the title '4x4 Ban gets Red Light'

.. 4x4s are keeping what they already have, so not 'getting' a green light for anything new.

Interesting opinion piece from KoftheP (MTB advocate):

https://kofthep.com/2020/08/26/ride-and-prejudice/

A few tons of metal supported on a few square centimetres of rubber, tends to trash trails pretty quickly. Much much quicker than a mountain biker or walker could. Nothing you've posted has made me think any better of 'green' laning (was there ever a less appropriate name for an activity?)

 'green' laning (was there ever a less appropriate name for an activity?)

How about driving along a public highway (just because it may not be covered in tarmac doesn't mean it isn't still a public highway) doesn't have quite the same ring to it though.

Perhaps the ideal solution would be that they are covered in tarmac/concrete and accessible for everyone, a bit like the public highways used to get to the Lakes.

The Stannage and Malham "paths" are almost there, wouldn't take a lot to make them more convenient for vehicle access. ; )

I've walked the Lakeland fells all my life and can honestly say I've never seen, let alone heard, any 4x4s once I've got away from the main roads.  

What on earth give you the impression I'm trying to make you think better of Green Laning ??

Then you're extremely blessed. I've encountered dozens of 4wds on tracks in the Lakes, Dales and upland areas elsewhere. I've also encountered them off road on the fell Great Burney near Woodland valley. By far the worst example I've seen lately is above here and on the fells from Walna Scar over Caw and around Stickle Pike. They have been trail bikes. The last place I saw them was around Beacon Tarn just before lockdown.

If you're seeing 4x4s around Beacon tarn then I'd suggest photographing their number plates and reporting them to the police. There's no vehicular rights of way anywhere near there.  Same with Walna Scar, that's been closed to vehicles for quite some time.  Of course there'll always be arseholes that break the rules, same as in any sport. 

you should see the pictures of the mess left by iron shod cart wheels on these public roads - as used when first constructed.

The ground pressure from a 4x4 tyre is less than that from a walking boot - try it, someone standing on your foot will hurt more.

Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't there a bit more to it than just the pressure exerted? Spinning wheels struggling for traction etc etc. I'm guessing the better the technique the less the impact but as with climbing- how many people actually have good technique!

Not 4wds by Beacon Tarn - trail bikes around there. There was a police sign at the foot of Tottlebank Height warning illegal off roaders of the consequences but blatantly being ignored. I was on the fell above Casterton last year and saw about 6 of them tearing over the open fell . I was too far off to get details but rang Cumbria police. They said they'd send someone if available which probably means not at all.

Irrelevant.

You first. And let's hope the driver doesn't spin the wheel.

Bullshit. A Discovery weight is over 2000kg. That's 500kg per wheel. The contact area is about that of a boot, which has say 100kg on it.

Considerably bigger contact area by the time it's up to its axle, though.