Why are belay jackets rarely waterproof?

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 jmerrick21 27 Jan 2020

I've been doing some research into buying a synthetic belay jacket and I've noticed that few if any are waterproof ( have goretex or the like). I find this odd as our climate dictates the preference for synthetic insulation over down as it's damp most of the time, therefore wouldn't waterproof belay jackets be a good idea? Looking at Andy Kirkpatrick's web page he advises to avoid waterproof jackets or taped seems but doesn't elaborate as to why. 

Any thoughts? And feel free to recommend.

Thanks

 DaveHK 27 Jan 2020
In reply to jmerrick21:

Just off the top of my head...

Cost, weight and bulk would all increase.

The fact that it doesn't tend to be raining when they're used so the gains from waterproof fabrics would be limited.

The filling retains much of its insulation when wet so less need.

They'd need a waterproof inner and outer too as much of the moisture comes from snow etc on the shell jacket further adding to bulk etc.

Post edited at 20:20
Wyn 27 Jan 2020
In reply to jmerrick21:

I think it would also inhibit lofting.

1
 angry pirate 27 Jan 2020
In reply to jmerrick21:

As Dave says, much of the wet will come from being placed over a damp shell so not a huge benefit in waterproof material. 

 3 Names 27 Jan 2020
In reply to jmerrick21:

I always assumed it was because they are designed for very cold environments, where it doesn't tend to rain.

 henwardian 27 Jan 2020
In reply to jmerrick21:

+1 for the "don't need waterproofs when it isn't raining" consensus. If you are winter climbing, it should basically be too cold for rain, and if it is raining, I think the falling ice would be more of an immediate issue. If you are summer climbing, you don't generally want to get caught in the rain much. Unless you are really into epics or trying to set a season record for most ascents of The Chasm, the waterproof layer is really only be for backup and most of the time it's nicer to have nicely lofted dry down and great breathability.

The versatility of layering is another big factor. If you put a waterproof on top of a down jacket, it weighs X. If you combine both into one jacket, all you are really saving is the outer layer of fabric of the down jacket and that is really thin and light - so it's losing a lot of versatility while only saving a small amount of weight/bulk. I personally frequently change between waterproof only, waterproof + downy and downy only on a given day out.

Also, on the cost front, I've started to see ski jackets which do insulation and waterproofness for more than £1000. I know a lot of climbers. I don't think I know anyone who would buy a four figure jacket...

 Donotello 27 Jan 2020

To have a jacket full of feathers or the like you need the material holding it in to be very light. It also needs to expand in a way to cope with differing loftiness of down. Using a waterproof fabric would make the jacket heavy and the down cells not so ‘inflatable’ - but they do exist.

I can’t really see why you’re going to be belaying in cold temperatures while it’s raining though? Just stay in. 

 Neil Williams 27 Jan 2020
In reply to jmerrick21:

Because you can put a waterproof over the top?  Outdoor kit is generally about layering.

 PaulJepson 27 Jan 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

Yah but a belay jacket is that. It's there to go over the top of everything else while you're belaying. You're not going to start stripping off at a belay in a hoolie so you can get your layering systems in the right order. 

The other replies are correct however (don't need a belay jacket if it's raining, needs to be lightweight, etc.)

Also imagine how much you would sweat in a hard-shell down jacket!

2
 James_D 28 Jan 2020
In reply to jmerrick21:

You might be looking for the mountain equipment fitzroy - waterproof and synthetic. I think it is for situations when you have no idea what the weather will do, but you want to stay warm. To be honest I haven't done anything daft enough to test it properly but it is very warm. 

4
 DaveHK 28 Jan 2020
In reply to James_D:

> You might be looking for the mountain equipment fitzroy - waterproof and synthetic. 

It's not waterproof, more water resistant than some on the market but definitely nowhere near waterproof.

 Pkrynicki1984 28 Jan 2020
In reply to James_D:

I've had 2 Fitzroys , they are not even close to waterproof and aren't marketed as such.

 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 28 Jan 2020
In reply to jmerrick21:

> Why are belay jackets rarely waterproof?

Because people rarely climb/belay in the rain?

Chris

OP jmerrick21 28 Jan 2020
In reply to Chris Craggs:

I guess im asking this question because while researching which belay jacket to get I came across so many references to people advising against down and in favour of synthetic because of the damp issue.  Hence if it's so wet why not waterproof.

From most of the responses I'm getting "it's never wet enough to need goretex" . So is synthetic the way to go or will down be ok?

In reply to jmerrick21:

You might be covered in spindrift and the like which would melt under your belay jacket = moisture. Synthetic will also be useful bouldering/climbing in the cooler months when it can rain. It just completely removes the whole moisture worry, and dries super fast. Once a down jacket is damp, it will take a long time in the drying room of any hut to dry out. 

 gethin_allen 28 Jan 2020
In reply to jmerrick21:

I have a old rab photon and a BD stance and although neither are really waterproof both will stand up to a good load of rain. Not sure if it's just like a old cotton tent where so long as you don't put something against the wet inner it won't draw the water through. The insulation doesn't seem to wick the moisture through.

 morpcat 28 Jan 2020
In reply to jmerrick21:

I'm lucky enough to have 3 insulated jackets to pick from:

In Scottish winter, you have to deal with a range of conditions including getting snowed on and it then melting, getting dumped on by spindrift and that then melting, or even just the climb itself melting and running down your sleeves. Between that and the generally high humidity, you're dealing with damp conditions more often than not. Even on very cold crisp days, chances are there's still a lot of spindrift. For these conditions you want a big synthetic jacket. Synthetics tend to weigh more than down for the same amount of insulation, but the advantage they have is that they can keep you warm even when damp. My previous jacket is somewhere in the corries of Nevis having been catapulted 60 feet into the air by an impressive gust of wind, so I recently bought a Mountain Equipment Prophet, which has a much more water resistant outer fabric. It's nowhere near being "waterproof", but you can tell straight away it was made to shrug off snow and avoid the damp melt you normally get. 

For summer climbing, I have a much thinner insulated jacket that weighs nothing and takes up very little space. Living in Scotland, I opted for synthetic here as well, but if I were somewhere drier I'd probably have opted for down. This layer also worked well in the Alps last summer, as we didn't go higher than about 3300m and therefore didn't need a big puffy jacket. 

For higher-altitude in the Alps, or even a winter Alps trip, I have a big puffy down jacket. The drier conditions over there makes down preferable to synthetic. You might still get snowed or spindrifted on, but the lower humidity and more intense sun help everything dry out faster. This jacket is also my standby for getting out of a sleeping bag on a cold morning. 

If you're just starting out and need one jacket to rule them all, I would recommend starting off a with a decent weight synthetic jacket (the exact one to go for is down to your preference). It can handle the biggest range of conditions and although it might not be the lightest or most packable type of jacket, it will cover you in situations where a down jacket would give up, and a thin jacket just won't do. 

OP jmerrick21 28 Jan 2020
In reply to morpcat:

Thanks for all the helpful information.

I'll definitely be looking for a synthetic of some dicription.

 James_D 28 Jan 2020
In reply to Pkrynicki1984:

It is marketed as "highly water resistant" on their website, but yes not totally waterproof. 

 DaveHK 29 Jan 2020
In reply to jmerrick21:

If you really want an insulated jacket with a waterproof face fabric there's this: https://theomm.com/product/barrage-jacket/

It doesn't have as much insulation as most things people would use for a belay jacket and it's not particularly breathable but it's an option.

Another limitation of waterproof fabrics just occurred to me. When I get to the top of a hard pitch I'm usually a sweaty mess, when you stop all that moisture starts moving out of your breathable shell and into the belay jacket. Waterproof fabrics are less breathable in the first instance and many rely on a temperature/pressure differential between inside and outside which the insulation will reduce. I suspect that what might happen is that much of the moisture would just condense on the inside of the face fabric or in the insulation.

 Siward 29 Jan 2020
In reply to jmerrick21:

Snugpak make a waterproof insulated jacket. https://www.snugpak.com/outdoor/clothing/torrent

They also make a warmer version but, as so often with Snugpak, it only comes in military green

OP jmerrick21 29 Jan 2020
In reply to Siward:

Thanks all. Mountain equipment prophet looking a good balance for what I'm looking for.


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