UKH

The guys at work who do the rigging on our mobile masts don't normally haul equipment up with a block&tackle but will soon have the requirement to lift some 75kg antennae that way. They did have a Heightec Quadra to use as progress capture but it's gone missing, so can any riggers / rope access guys suggest the best thing to replace it with? Criteria:- Will normally be used on the ground, 100kg working load, takes 11mm ropes, must be releasable (like the Petzl I'D which we use in our cliff rescue team), must be easily 'tended' from any direction (unlike a Shunt which only allows the rope to run through easily when it's pulled in one direction).

Thanks in advance

Look at the ISC options

https://www.iscwales.com/Products/Progress-Capture-Pulleys/

Harken Hexaratchets area common and popular option in production rigging.

Their pulleys are no good - toothed cam which is impossuible to release under tension.

Out of interest, what is your line of work? It sounds interesting!

Appreciate you might not want to discuss on public forum, so please feel free to ignore...

Telecoms. I'm an exchange engineer (for want of a better description), my colleagues are going to be installing new antennae on various towers/masts for increased mobile data speed. Previously the antennae have been dumb bits of kits, but these latest ones have active equipment on the back which makes them heavy enough to warrant a proper haul system.

If you’re after a progress capture device for a haul, why not just use an ID, or, if you’re looking for something with less friction, one of these might do the trick for you?

https://www.cmcpro.com/equipment/mpd/

We use MPDs in rescue rigging in Mountain Rescue- not cheap but would be ideal for this application.

" . . . They did have a Heightec Quadra to use as progress capture but it's gone missing . . . "

Why not just buy another one as that is what they're used to using?

Unfortunately I don't think it's available yet, but I think the new Petzl Maestro might be perfect.  Combines the efficient pulley of a Pro-traxion with the seamless transition into controlled lowering of an I'D.

As teh-mark says, Harken Hexaratchets are commonly used in rigging for concerts and such.  (Specifically, most often this one: https://www.harken.com/productdetail.aspx?id=4544&taxid=1330 )

It's designed for yachting, and isn't truly a 'progress capture' device.  The pulley is very efficient and has an internal ratchet that will allow the sheave to turn in one direction only when it's engaged.  The outside of the sheave is grooved and hexagonal* (hence the name), and grips the rope slightly.  So in one direction it runs like a nice smooth pulley, in the other direction it doesn't turn and provides a bit of friction like running the rope over a tree branch.  Used with a yachting rope it takes about 80-90% of the load - not progress capture, but makes it easy to hold the load in position after hauling it up.  It's a little less grippy with an 11mm kernmantle rope.

Those production riggers are using ropes to pull assemblies of steel wire ropes and hoist chains up into (usually a theatre or arena) roof.  The upper end of what's lifted with a single pulley and a few bodies before going to a more elaborate hauling system or a mechanical hoist is comparable to the loads you're talking about, around 75-100kg max.  With those heavier points two or more riggers will work together to haul the chain up, one holds it in place while the other makes the connection to the structure and then lowers it gently until the load is transferred and the rope goes slack.

* - Edit to correct an error - no it isn't.  Not on this model anyway.

They're not used to using it - although they've had it some time it's not been used as they've not had anything heavy enough to warrant using a block and tackle. They're more or less starting from scratch, hence my query on what is out there and best. I don't think the hexarachet is suitable - they need pure progress capture that doesn't really require tending.

Gee-whizz the MPD is expensive! Is it worth the extra cash over an ID?

I would have thought there'd be industrial Working At Height standards & requirements for this sort of thing, and that they probably don't involve asking a bunch of random amateurs on a climbing forum?

An I'D is not a pulley.  It's a descender that runs the rope over a smooth enough bobbin that you can use it as a very inefficient pulley if you really have to.  For example as part of a z-hoist system to lift a person a short distance before subsequently lowering them as part of some rescue scenario.

What I would suggest you really don't want to do is hoist a significant weight a significant distance using a pulley that is not a proper pulley - ie: freely rotating wheel, reasonably big, with bearings.

If you want efficient hauling and reasonably foolproof progress capture, and you don't want to buy an eye-wateringly expensive all-singing all-dancing device, I would suggest what is left is that you need to get over the aversion to toothed cams that you mentioned above and use a Pro-Traxion - just to get the gizmo up there and within hailing distance of where it ultimately needs to be.

Once it's there adapt the system with a few other bits of kit to allow you to release the cam and lower under finer control - there are as many ways to do that as there are to build a belay (and it would be equally as pointless to try to talk you through them here unfortunately.)  There are probably some good youtube videos out there, sadly likely to be buried under a colossal pile of bad ones.

Presumably the people working up on that mast must have a rescue plan and some appropriate training?  The skills involved in hoisting and lowering a 75 - 100 kg odd mass, and changing over from one to the other, are really essentially the same as rescuing a colleague who's ended up dangling in their harness.  You could look at it as an opportunity to practice.

Alternatively, once your gizmo is somewhere close, make the fine adjustments with one or more cute little bebes like <googles and picks a link at random> this: https://www.safetyliftingear.com/products/250kg-x-1mtr-light---compact-leve... and maybe a ratchet strap or two.

There are regulations, and of course there's the HSAWA (1974).  But it's all a bit less proscriptive than you think possibly, and there's absolutely nothing to say you can't collect ideas from a bunch of anonymous random amateurs.  Could be a good way to cross-pollinate ideas with people who do similar things in a different type of job actually.  Or not in a job, obviously.

On threads like this I like to do the OP the courtesy of assuming they're reasonably competent at their job, will be taking the advice offered by us random amateurs with a prudently large pinch of salt and will be doing the appropriate risk assessments and wotnot for themselves.  (And seeking vocational training, proper non-anonymous professional advice etc. blah blah, as appropriate.)

On another slightly more work-related forum I sometimes read there would always be someone popping up on a thread like this to say "If you have to ask advice from anybody, you shouldn't even be contemplating doing this job."  (Often from someone as clueless as he - it's always a he - is sanctimonious.)  Which is a valid point of view I suppose, but it does beg the question: "Well in that case, wtf is this forum for?"

A climbing forum that's full of people that work in rope access, hence my "so can any riggers / rope access guys suggest the best thing to replace it with?" words

The guys up the stick have their rescue training and dedicated equipment for that, but it's not practical for them to haul from the top. Practise is all well and good, but when there's work to be done there's work to be done (plus it gets bloney cold up a mast).  The preferred method is to haul from the ground where there's ground anchors, plenty of space for a pulley system and bodies to haul with. The haul system is run using a separate rope, pulleys, and rope clamp on the main rope so the progress capture device for the main rope doesn't need to be efficient. It does need to be releasable due to the high probability of an antenna getting wedged up underneath another antenna or bit of ironwork. Unlike a human, an antenna can't flex itself to unjam itself.

Back in the days when I was working in towers:

- Somebody carrier a pole, extension cable and electric winch. 

- When no power was available, we used pulleys and the van to get things up.

- Only once we had to use the Id's and rescue's to haul things up.

I've never suggested that the hauling should be done from the top, just that it should be done with a proper pulley at the top.

It makes perfect sense that the bulk of the muscle power to get the thing up there should be provided from the ground if you have bodies down there, but it also strikes me as a no-brainer that the fine adjustment, the 'up a bit', 'down a bit' to position the thing precisely should be done from the top.  (Unless you're lucky enough that the permanent fixings you're dealing with are not at all fiddly and you don't have to position it precisely.)

You misunderstood my comment a bit I think.  Also I'm not sure I understand your last.  Separate rope? Main rope?  One or both of us would probably have to start drawing pictures to be sure.  No worries.  I don't really have time for that and I'm guessing you don't either, so I'm out. 

Just to swing way back to the original question before I go - if you just want to replace the missing Quadra with something like for like, yes, buy an I'D.  Does everything the Quadra does but better (imo), more intuitive and with the advantage that you're not expected to lace it different ways for different tasks.

Do look out for the Petzl Maestro though, I thought the prototype I had a play with a while back was absolutely brilliant.  They've obviously hit a snag somewhere because it should have been available a while ago now, hope it can be sorted out.

Best of luck.

I comment on this from a Rope Access point of view, my favoured piece of kit for this type of hauling is the Petzl RIG. It is more compact than the ID and a smooth capture device, new model is even an improvement on the older one. I have used Stop, ID and RIGover the last 30yrs and I always return to theRIG as my default now.

i was also privy to test the early Pre-production stages of the Heightech Tornado and Twister devices although limited to 50 & 10Kg respectively they do seem to accomplish what they set out to do. Worth looking at for the smaller loads and aimed specifically at the Telecoms market.

Ok, late addition to my post on the RIG. For heavier loads such as your indicated 75Kg, why not try the Petzl Pro-Traxion. Although a toothed capture I have also used these units for many years now in Direct single use and as part of compound pulley systems. If we need to have a controlled release we just add a descender when the load is at its high point. All personnel are carrying descenders as part of personal kit so no additional kit been transported. Add the tail end of the rope to the descender, raise 3-4mm to release the ProTraxion latch mechanism and do the final short lower of the load into position on the descender. Massive friction savings on the lift with only a 60sec time loss of adding the descender and off loading.reccomend the ProTraxion - low friction, secure capture, good load capacity

How about a Quadra paired with a Heightec Hurricane? Both are pretty instinctive to use. My team have started using them in the last few months after years of using I'Ds, pulleys and rescuscenders, after an initial training period we've found them to be efficient and quick to set up for both hauling and lowering.