UKH

If you could only have (afford) two of the new DMM Dragonflies and already have a rack of standard cams (friends/dragons/C4s) down to 00, (plus a load of tricams), which would you get and why?

The smallest 3 sizes as they are not covered by the Dragons. Depends what kind of stuff you're climbing I guess. There's a few pitches locally that are hard to protect in places and I'm hoping these cams will give me the nerve to crack them.

Mmm. Begs the question, why do they make two sizes which overlap with Dragons? Perhaps just because of the narrower head? I think I'd rather a black or pink tricam!

The blue dragonfly is actually a bit smaller than the blue dragon.. annoyingly! 

According to the blurb, if a dragon is over-cammed, the equivalent dragonfly should fit nicely (or words to that effect).

I've bought the red one and have used it plenty, definitely worth getting as it seems to fit anywhere! Possibly get the next one up or down to cover your small placement bases - i wouldnt bother with the overlapping ones, seems like a bit of a money making racket on DMM's side!

I would say that the answer completely comes down to what you're looking to use them on, and - not to sound too elitist - this largely comes down to grades. For what it's worth this isn't me being judgemental, it's the rock: generally speaking the harder the route the more likely it has to have small gear. Clearly this is a massive generalisation, but it gives us a reasonable starting point:

E1 - E3: Gold and Red
E5 - Gold, Red, Green

Having had a quick discussion about this with Theo (who is reviewing them for UKC) he thinks this is about right, but clearly we would both add the usual caveats of different rock types, personal preferences, and the amount of cash you've got going spare (in short: don't take the above too seriously). No doubt Theo will post his own thoughts on here in due course, as I know he's been putting his set of Dragonflys to good use since receiving them a few weeks back.

That said, what he didn't agree on was the matter of the size overlap with standard cams. My preference is to carry ALL sizes of microcam and my reasons are twofold: the first being that they're much narrower heads tend to fit in where the standard size 'quasi-micros' (i.e. blue + silver dragon) can't fit and the second is that they're a whole lot bendier, softer, and gripper. Ultimately it comes down to personal preference, but my preference lies with whatever is most likely to fit (and hold a fall). Those people who prefer full size cams can only have one justification, which ultimately comes down to durability, because they're not a patch on micros performance-wise.

Finally, a potentially unpopular decision, but tricams - great though they are - are not even in the same league as microcams when it comes to speed or quality of placement. Yes, they fit where other gear won't, but they are a specialist bit of kit that are, for want of a better word, esoteric. The only discernible advantage is their price, which is obvioulsy a fraction of a microcam, but in the long run I would suggest saving your money and spending it on additional micros as/when you've got enough.

This is bang on the money re the overlap. The point of microcams is that they make difficult placements more secure and easier to find. They are IMO vastly superior in just about every way possible to small standard cams, especially standard double axle cams. I argued with WC that they shouldn't even bother making the double axle cams smalled than purple and instead concentrate on bringing out the best microcam they could benath this so that the ranges nested together seamlessly. I was not taken up on this as they felt that people would potentially by both as in that size you often see multiple placements on the same route. Maybe it was my OCD coming in to play there but to my mind I just don't see the point of having anything that isn't as narrow as possible and as flexible as possible in those sizes.

I kind of agree with this, but to me it depends on the rock you are talking about. On pocketed limestone like we have here in the Marmolada region of the Dolomites, you can frequently get better placements with tricams than just about anything else. Yesterday I climbed a couple of new routes, and cams simply would not have gone where I managed to place a secure tricam. IMO they are a piece to augment microcams and worth buying in their own right - I own up to size 4! As for the microcam/grade, yeah sorry think that's elitest nonsense - again it depends on the rock you climb on - microcams are really great on pocketed limestone (especially where you have a lip to the pocket to make a very secure placement) at just about all grades. I can see your point on igneous rocks which tend to swallow nuts or grit which tends to have larger slots...

Funnily enough, guess where I last carried a full rack of tricams: the Marmolada. That said, this pretty much highlights the point I was making, which is that they're a specialist bit of kit that you're only likely to carry on routes - or in specific regions - where you know you're likely to place them.

During the discussion I had with Theo we were both in agreement that these weren't likely to be pieces of kit you would a) be carrying or b) wanting to place on routes such as Positron or The Cumbrian, but were we to head up a route somewhere like Millstone, with suitable sized shot holes, we might just use one (or at least we would have until we got a set of Totems and now we just use those).

Regarding the grades, whilst it's clearly far from watertight I think they demonstrated the point I was trying to make: if you're climbing harder grades then you're likely to need a larger spread of sizes. The sizes quoted were more of a basic guideline for OP - they did ask the question after all

Well sure, I suppose I'm pointing out that there is value in owning a set of tricams and microcams if you climb mainly on Limestone - which Badgerjockey most likely does as he lives in Bristol... it's a bit like climbers from up north tend to claim microwires are no use unless you climb E2, which is simply not the case on Limestone - I frequently place micro's on HVS, I never leave the deck without them unless it's really simple climbing. As a gear designer I never really understand the compartmentalisation of gear into "grade" groups as it's a straw man arguement... Around Bristol, I do not carry tricams, but microcams I absolutely do and I would class myself as a professional bumbly compared to yourself...

The idea of placing micro cams into those polished, parallel cracks at Avon is giving me migraines - give me a passive piece of protection any day!

I'm currently reviewing the Dragonflys, along with similar microcams from other brands, for a group test. I've been using them for a couple of weeks and so I've only really had a handful of placements, and first impressions, to go from so far.

Anecdotally, and this is only based on a small number of routes climbed with the Dragonflys, the cam I've placed the most is the Gold i.e the size below the regular blue 00. As Rob says in his post, the size which fits the most placement depends on the features of the rock you are climbing on, so the sizes which would be most beneficial to you depend upon what type of rock you climb and what grades. 

Although I haven't climbed on the Dragonflys much I do have a full set in front of me, as well as Dragons and some Totems so I can make some observations which might help to answer "On limited funds which 1 or 2 Dragonflys should I buy if I already have a full set of cams?" (I'm going to ignore the Silver 5 and Purple 6 Dragonflys here as they full overlap Dragon sizes the OP already has).

Blue: The blue Dragonfly is actually significantly smaller than the 00 Dragon (only at full contraction of the Dragon and minimum contraction of the Dragonfly do they overlap!) and the headwidth is roughly 20% smaller so it's going to fit lots of different placements i.e a good choice. Interestingly the headwidth of the blue Dragonfly is still larger than the width of the Blue Totem (in fact, the headwidth of the Blue Totem is smaller than ANY of the Dragonflys!). The Blue Totem is almost exactly the same size as the 00 Dragon.

Gold: I've placed this one a lot and there's no overlap with the current Dragon range. Going on the notion that 'the larger the cam the more confidence it gives you', it's 8kN strength, and the fact that I've placed a few times it would be my no. 1 choice. 

Red: I've also placed this one a couple of times and I think it's a great size -isn't it weird how some sizes of gear, like a number 6 nut, just fit a lot more of time than others!? It's also just big enough that you don't think 'oh crap that piece of gear's so small I really hope I don't fall off!'. 

Green: This one is really flippin' small and still has 6kN strength - the same as the Red. As such, although it falls in to the 'oh crap' size of gear, it is still relatively strong. Plus, being super small, it's likely to placements that nothing else will and hence where you're likely to not have any other gear. As this generally occurs more on harder routes, I'd split my no. 2 choice between green (if you're climbing harder E grades or bolder routes) and red (if you're climbing lower grades). 

Hopefully, although long and drawn out, that will help to answer your question. My personal preference would be to carry Green, Red, Gold and Blue Dragonflys and then carry regular cams - personally I like the Totems - in the standard sizes (except I'd take a gold Dragon over an orange Totem as the Orange Totem is floppy).

It's interesting that Rob would take micro cams over regular cams in standard sizes as I personally prefer to take regular cams. I'm happy for any of the following to be discredited by a more experience climber and/or someone who actually knows something about physics and holding power:

• Regular cams have at least as much, and sometimes more, holding power than micros.
• Plus they generally have wider and larger lobes which have a larger surface area and are therefore more likely to grip on slick rock, particularly when you look at a micro cam like the Dragonfly which, whilst it has Triple Grip lobes, feels nowhere near as grippy as a Dragon. The lobes of micro cams are generally so small/thin than they seem slippery on anything but grippy rock types.
• Granted, micro cams generally use a softer alloy which is more likely to bite in to the rock and therefore hold. I don't have the alloy type of the Dragonflys to hand (and nor do I know anything about types of alloy) but from looking at them compared to the Dragons, Totems and Totem Basics, the Dragonfly alloy is much more similar to Dragons than it is to the softer Totems. From a post by beardy mike on another thread "[Aliens] are made from 6061-t6 which is the softest alloy used by all the brands - I think Totem also use it."
• Totem cams in their regular sizes have extremely narrow headwidths (narrower than some microcams!), so the reduced headwidth of a micro cam is not an advantage if you're using totems.
• Regular cams have a much more robust construction and are therefore more durable both over time and in the event of a fall.

There is also one huge plus point for regular cams which I personally can't overlook: they're more robust, stronger and stickier and therefore inspire more confidence. How often do you have place a cam vs. falling on it? 20 to 1? 50 to 1? 100 to 1? The critical function of a cam is to hold your fall, sure, but way more often than not you don't fall on them but, knowing that you have a solid cam and/or gear to protect you does something really important: it makes you feel confident. Confidence is a huge factor which determines success in (my) trad climbing, and as I feel more confident in regular cams than slippy little micro cams, regular cams make me trad climb better. This is all entirely anecdotal but it's how it works for me!

If you've read this far you deserve a medal.

Haha - that's what Avon is for isn't it? Migranes? You're right, but Avon is a world away from what you see at Cheddar, Goblin Combe or even on suspension Bridge Buttress where there is naturally formed lime which is more shaped and where you can key you placements in behind knobbles and lips etc.

Don't be silly.

It's no. 4 nuts that fit far more often than anything else.

Obvs.

I'm torn as to whether mine would be a Wallnut 4 or 6. Curiously a 5 doesn't fit anywhere near as much?! Overall though, there are fewer things more satisfying to place than a 7.

When it comes to micro-cams the ones I tend to place are the Green/Yellow Totem Basic, which equate to in/around a Blue + Silver Dragonfly. Maybe this is of some use to the OP (before I completely derail the thread...again...)?

Great info there, very useful. 

I was more asking hypothetically to get your own reasoning rather than specifically for my needs, but when I get round to it I think it’s gonna be red and gold, then green later. Bit academic now as all the Bristol shops are fresh out.

As for cams in Avon, when it’s deep enough to actually take a cam I find them actually pretty good. Avon gets a bad rep but I think the rock is on the whole far grippier and textured than people assume. FWIW I remember one friend of mine was held by a 0 demon cam (blue) just fine in a quarried placement. 

As for tricams, I think every regular tradder would benefit from having a black, pink and brown on their rack. Cheap, light, narrower than any sprung cam, usually more bomber than people think and allow some resourceful placements. Also great fun to listen to the second having a nightmare removing.

Cheers for the post. Look forward to seeing the full review. 

At some point soon I need replace (I've decided not to look to reslinging) a set of 2nd generation WC Zeros and original DMM Dragons for work use.

For several years I climbed with Zeros 3,4,5,5,6,6 and then doubles of Dragons 1 upwards. There was no overlap between the larger micros and the full size versions as recommended by some posters. However I then decided that I much preferred a Dragon 0 for general use (for exactly the reasons you just mentioned, especially the wider lobes) over the fairly similar sized Zero 6. In future I think I'll also go back to using a full sized 00 cam and just have singles in the mid sizes of micros rather than doubles.

Probably going to hold off on the Dragonflies until I can see the WC versions. I might even wait until next year to look at the BD micros.

I haven't managed to get my hands on a set of the WC micro cams yet and apparently there are only a couple out of sets out there. I have seen some in the flesh at a trade show and they do look good. Don't quote me on this but I have heard rumour that they don't go down to the smallest size of the Dragonflys. 

I do have a set of the BD X4s (the ones with the metal links over the stem) but these are apparently about to be discontinued for the Z4s which are notable for their plastic casing over the stem. So long as I can get both the BD and WC cams in for for review in time they will be all be included in the upcoming group test - I'm about to be placing a lot of micro cams!

I've seen the BD Z4's in the flesh and to be honest was not that impressed. The plastic sleeve looks decidedly fragile and the stiffened stem? Well I went around the other booths trying to work out if they were actually that flexy when you pull the trigger and came to the conclusion that they weren't apart from in the really large sizes like the big Metolius Mastercams. Which by the way if you are doing a head to head should be included... Plus they have lost the clever dual axle in a single axle design of the X4, presumably because of cost...