UKH

Need a more economical means of tick proofing my clothes than expensive bottles of X4; does anyone know where I can buy high concentration/undiluted permethrin?

In reply to Osiris:

You may find you can't buy it undiluted. This is slightly more concentrated, works out about 75% cheaper per unit permethrin.

https://www.pestfix.co.uk/perbio-choc-ready-to-use-professional-insecticide...

In reply to Osiris:

Agricultural suppliers (or a farmer with cereal crops).  The issue is you may need to buy a BIG container.

In reply to Osiris:

You might want to read the specification in the link you were given.

Especially the bit about not using it on bedding or clothes.

In reply to Philip:

Oil based is not suitable for clothing or skin so thanks but that's no good for me.

In reply to Osiris:

https://www.chemist-4-u.com/permethrin-lyclear-5-w-w-cream-30g?gclid=CjwKCA...

What about some scabies cream 

In reply to Osiris:

Large volumes of concentrated permethrin and other pyrethroids have the potential for massive environmental harm. I would stick to what you can buy for that reason alone. 

In reply to SouthernSteve:

Fair point. I shall stick to the wee bottles.

In reply to Osiris:

I believe Ed Grundy has a night time sideline in dodgy pesticides

In reply to SouthernSteve:

There are two issues. Concentration and volume. One is hazard based the other risk based.

You can't and probably shouldn't buy it concentrated for the reason you give. But if you are careful with storage there is no reason you shouldn't be able to buy 5L rather than 330 mL. You might also find it cheaper sold purely as an industrial product rather than a branded one.

In reply to Osiris:

Permethrin has it's hazards to humans but its dilute enough that it's not really a problem, especially when compared to the big danger of tick-born diseases. Pure permethrin would be evil though. 

There's no such thing as a harmless substance, only a harmless dose!

In reply to Red Rover:

https://www.compoundchem.com/2014/07/27/lethaldoses/

In reply to Philip:

I'm surprised the LD50 for water and alcohol is that low!

In reply to Red Rover:

The water I'm not sure of. The mechanism is loss of electrolytes leading to excessive water retention. So hard to achieve by drinking it alone, you have to outpace your kidneys (1 L per hour).

The alcohol is based on rat data. Given the unreliability of reading across from rat for methanol, I'm not sure on it's accuracy. It's also based on blood alcohol, so you need to get all 13 shots into your blood for 50:50 chance of death.

In reply to Osiris:

Just to clarify the environmental impact of permethrin. If you walk through water, which is obviously almost inevitable, with this on your clothes you will have a major impact on the invertebrates downstream or in water pools/lochans. One of the lesser known/not talked about things about using spot on treatments for ticks in pet dogs is the killing of invertebrate pond life when your pet goes for a swim after application. Additionally the chance of picking up ticks if wearing long trousers is small. All things considered the use of this is difficult to justify. 

In reply to Samu:

I am with you here. I really dislike this chemical-based approach to the outdoors. As you say, if you are wearing long trousers you are unlikely to pick up ticks. When wearing shorts, just continually check your legs and boots. Simple. In most places in the world, the problem of nasties and parasites is far worse than in the UK (except for our policitical parasites).

In reply to Samu:

Sorry but I think that’s misleading. Reduced perhaps, but I never wear shorts yet seem to pick up more ticks than the rest of north wales combined.

In reply to John Stainforth:

That's nonsense! The blighters climb and find skin that way. I have never found any difference in frequency between wearing trousers and shorts. They love me and find their way into me no matter what.

With you on limiting chemicals though, just check well every night and remove swiftly.

In reply to jezb1:

I disagree however lightweight gaiters should more or less eliminate the risk e.g. the short raidlight type designed for running.

https://www.raidlight.com/uk/raidlight-trail-gaiters-gaiters-footwear-black...

These ones only weigh 45grams each and will stop anything crawling up. 

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In reply to Samu:

Permethrin is not readily water-soluble (it stays on your clothes after several washes) so it shouldn't leak into water much. I always jump across streams etc when I'm out with it on. Do you have any sources for the claim that permethrin treated clothes are damaging the ecosystem? 

Long trousers don't make much difference to ticks, they crawl up your legs and go hunting for flesh on round the midriff. 

Tick numbers in the UK are rising and Lymes disease is becoming more common quite rapidly.  https://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/183/2/44

I used to only worry about Ticks if I was in Italy, the Balkans or the West Coast of Scotland etc but now I think we aren't so safe any more. 

In reply to Red Rover:

The recommendation from companies producing permethrin for application to dogs is that they don’t swim outdoors for a variable number of days after application because aquatic life is highly sensitive to the chemical. The concentration of permethrin is significantly lower in these products than in industrial strength permethrin so application of the latter to clothes seems irresponsible. 

Well done if you can avoid water when you’re out and about. I know I struggle to avoid rain and if you get a good soaking where is the run off permethrin going to go? Hence my suggestion of long trousers and gaiters as above if you’re worried.

Thanks for the link which confirms that the incidence of Lyme disease is low and although it is important to be aware of it let’s keep the risk in perspective and not inadvertently destroy other wildlife in the meantime

In reply to Samu:

It barely comes off in the rain though as it takes hot water and detergent to strip it from clothes. Remember that Permethrin is actually a natural chemical which is present in Chrysanthemums albeit in a low concentration, but Chrysanthemums will occasionally fall in rivers etc so its not like the stuff isnt out there. 

And I agree, using undiluted permethrin would be a terrible idea. But the very dilute stuff you get for clothes is fine. 

In reply to Samu:

P.S. Gaiters and long trousers help but they really don't stop them; I've been out in the woods in wellies and full overalls and I've seen them marching up my legs looking for exposed flesh.

In reply to Red Rover:

No it’s not.  It’s is a synthetic analogue if the pyrethrins found in thee and some other plant species.  We took natures idea and “improved” it.  Thought natural, natures version is not without toxicity.

In reply to kipper12:

OK fair one I know natural doesn't mean harmless, I just thought it was a total synthesis of the natural product.

In reply to Deadeye:

Permethrin is sold in 1 litre containers so is affordable when compared with the cost of 250 ml commercial shop products

In reply to SouthernSteve:

That is Avery general statement and can be applied to many things Permethrin is quite safe if used within the label guidelines

In reply to girlymonkey:

I am approaching 70 and for the last 20 years have been walking one or two hours a day in the countryside almost every day, often through grassland and woodland. Mostly in mainland Europe, UK, Texas and California. At least half the time I am wearing shorts, yet I have not had a tick get stuck into me for nearly ten years. Texas in the last twenty years taught me to check my legs continually whilst walking. The key is to brush ticks off your shoes or legs long before they get stuck in. They usually head upwards on your body, which gives one some time to do that. I last brushed a tick (an adult brown tick) off my lower leg yesterday in the Chiltern Hills. No chemical repellents.

Yet I am apparently talking nonsense!

PS. I very seldom get ticks on my skin when wearing long trousers for the simple reason there is much less exposed skin. (All the advice on the internet agrees with that.) Yet I prefer wearing shorts in tick country because I can check my skin directly.

In reply to John Stainforth:

I agreed with limiting chemical repellents. Just disputed long trousers solve the problem. As someone who rarely wears shorts, I get more ticks than most people latched on to me. 

They do seem to like some people more than others, bit trousers do not stop them at all. I had 2 under my watch strap this year, my trousers certainly didn't help me there!!

One of my clients last week had one in between his toes! He had socks and shoes on! (To be fair, that one was a new one on me, never seen that before!)

In reply to John Stainforth:

Hello John I never said anyone was talking nonsense sorry if it sounded like that but ticks seem to love me so I wear the stuff when I'm out in the braken etc but dont go in water (its not water soluble anyway). Too drunk to reply properly but the harm done by chemicals depends on how you use them and how much you use of them (I work in a lab). Big fan of the Fiva book by the way! I've seen it from Store Trolltind.

In reply to Osiris:

Well, lots of good comments here. Thank you. I never intended to apply industrial strength, but to water it down to a similar concentration as these clothing sprays.

I am concerned about the environment, but equally about my health and for those actively working in the outdoors, which I hope to, Lyme's disease is an occupational hazard. I suppose it's about a compromise.

In reply to Red Rover:

Thanks for your comments. I do not understand what people are disliking about my comments re ticks. When it comes to ticks, I am really, really experienced - absolutely on the opposite end of the scale to my (very ancient) Fiva incompetence.

One of the problems with ticks in the UK is that they were never bad until fairly recently, so there is now a lack of experience in how to cope with them; a lot of odd-ball ideas; and a resorting to chemicals.

In reply to Osiris:

Did you get anywhere with this? A cheaper solution at all? As a SAR member I’ve been considering treating my kit but reapplication every few weeks is going to be pricey with the amount it gets used between training and call outs 

In reply to minus273degrees:

I don't know if diluting industrial strength stuff will work to be honest as it depends how the life-spray stuff is formulated. There might be other ingredients in the product which solubilise it in the bottle or help it bind to the cloth.

In reply to minus273degrees:

PS Unless you're a trained chemist and have a fume hood etc I wouldn't go near undiluted permethrin even if you're just diluting it down,  as in its neat form it will be nasty stuff (no such thing as a harmless substance only a harmless dose) e.g. 5 % ethanol is fine (beer) but 100 % ethanol is fatal.

In reply to minus273degrees:

I didn't look deeply, but it's certainly not easy to find online. I decided just to settle for Life-systems Ex4 spray; on Wiggle, I managed to find a deal that brought the price down to around £6 a bottle (instead of £10) and bought 5. I suppose a bottle could last around a month, if you use it sparingly (trousers, bag, jacket). So for £6 a month that's not too bad.

In reply to Osiris:

How did you manage to get the EX4 spray for £6 a bottle?  I messaged you but got no reply..

In reply to FlyingHigh:

Is danger of ticks hitching a ride and contracting Lyme disease in the UK being over exaggerated?

I've holidayed in Scotland (mainly the north west coast) almost every year since the early 1990s.

Since around 2003 I've visited the north west more frequently and for the last eight or so years I have visited(usually for a couple of weeks, but occasionally for month or more)  around five or six times a year.

The number of ticks I've had has varied greatly. I've had weeks where I haven't had any and also found  five having a ride and feed after one afternoon's work in the garden.

Perhaps the area I visit is low in ticks but pine martens and badgers visit the garden regularly; and roe deer, though rarely seen, pass through frequently.

Ticks are certainly about but is the danger any greater now than years ago? Is it just that Lyme disease has a higher profile so ticks are looked for more now?

I think the best defence is being vigilant and checking yourself every time after you have been anywhere where ticks might be present.

Dave

In reply to Tringa:

There's a paper here which might help answer that: https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/9/7/e025916

That's your choice, but you'd have to be very flexible and with good eyesight to be certain.

In reply to Tringa:

Anecdotally, a large number of forestry workers up in Scotland have been treated for Lymes (and have a high chance of Post Treatment Syndrome which is pretty bad). Have a read of the book Lyme and you'll think twice about it as being an exaggerated yuppie disease. It's deadly serious, under diagnosed and poorly treated in general. I'm just researching an article about ticks for my magazine and am quite shocked. I'm one of the lucky ones that doesn't get  many ticks but I have colleagues who have counted over 80 on them after playing at Resipol campsite (and whose wife who was playing as well got none)

In reply to Osiris:

You'll not get hold of 100% stuff.

If you did wash stuff with it etc changes you'll end up in big trouble with EA and water company.

When I got some from a wool mill, of calibration of lab toxicity equipment 50ml was enough to wipe out big sewage works fauna or significant stretch of river

In reply to Thugitty Jugitty:

Thanks for the link, had not seen that one before and anything that increases the chances of spotting the disease is a good thing.

Saw this from an earlier study in two London parks -https://academic.oup.com/rheumatology/article-abstract/33/2/123/1772700

The study was small (only 44 workers in the two parks tested) but I thought it was interesting that only 23% of them reported tick bites.

Dave

In reply to timparkin:

I wouldn't describe Lyme Disease as a yuppie disease, from what I have read it can be serious if not treated.  but do wonder if the increased reported incidence really due to there being more cases of the disease or due to just more being reported. It does appear to affect some more than others.

Agree some folks seem less attractive to ticks than others. Although do get them and have had loads over the years, my wife is a magnet for them.

Dave

In reply to Tringa:

What figure were you expecting? Maybe they were all bitten but only 23% of workers can spot a tick bite, or maybe only 23% of them were bitten? My favourite explanation is that 77% of tick bites occur in places you can't easily inspect yourself: scalp, back of neck, crack of arse. I can't even get a good look at the backs of my knees.