UKH

Just after some advice from any folks who do wild camping out in the hills for a few days at a time on what would be an ideal set up in terms of rucksack size, tent, a sleeping bag. The things that take up the most bulk?

I currently have an Osprey Aether 70 I think it is. A Hilleberg Nammatj 2 and a 4 Season sleeping bag from Alpkit.

All three of these things take up quite a bit of space and weigh a fair bit too.

I am prepared to compromise a little on tent and rucksack. The sleeping bag will have to stay though because I often camp high up where it is cooler. There was one occasion when I forgot my 4 season bag and just had my lightweight summer sleeping bag with me in October up a hill in Scotland and I nearly froze my rear off.

What size of rucksack in terms of litres could I drop down to and still be able to fit the 4 season bag and a new tent in that will be less bulky and heavy?

I would love to know what kit you have and what size rucksack you fit it all in.

In reply to ImperialJohn:

Maybe a smaller pack.

I find the bigger my pack, the more I take!!!

Is it just you? You could certainly drop down to a one man tent. I have used my Akto for years and love it. It's also a smaller space to warm up which is a bonus. 

Sleeping bag wise, I always think of a sleeping bag as part of my overall clothing system. If I have a dry set of baselayers / socks swap in to along with some decent warm layers, I know that it can reduce my sleeping bag size. Remember that a lot of your heat goes through the floor so good ground insulation can offset a lighter sleeping bag. Also, sleep in a hat!

What time of year are you out and about? This will have an impact on how much stuff you need to carry. I'll happily run a 20-25litre pack for a one nighter in the late spring / Summer / early Autumn but what run to a 45 litre max in the winter. Even for a multi layer, I'd probably stick with the 45 - I usually attach my tent to the outside of the pack. 

Just some thoughts and musings. Please feel free to disregard my nonsense. 

BB

In reply to ImperialJohn:

A lot of this is very personal and difficult to compare. 

One thing you haven't mentioned is sleeping mat - the best down bag in the world won't keep you warm from underneath!

I have Hilleberg soulo tent, Rab neutrino bag with a silk liner, thermarest neo x-lite mat (plus a cheap foam mat if really cold) and deuter airconnect 65+10.

In warm weather I use a thinner sleeping bag and maybe just bivvi instead of tent, allowing use of a 40l or smaller sack. 

In reply to ImperialJohn:

30 litres for me is the norm for spring through to autumn 1 nighters. My setup is a alpkit pipedream 400 (800 grams ish) comfortable ish down to 0 degs c its uncomfortable below 0 without a liner (200 grams ish) and maybe some warm socks and a jumper on. For shelter I either take a bivvy bag (500 ish grams) if the weathers good, or if the weathers bad I will take a tent, super light Voyager (1.5kg), got a neo x therm roll mat 3/4 length (200 grams roughly) my rucksack normally covers the feet but if that gets wet I'll normally use whatever isnt wet,

Rest of the space taken up by the normal stuff clothes, food and essentials normally boxers and socks, lightly insulated jacket, waterproofs, gloves, pocket rocket stove with mid size gas canister.

In reply to ImperialJohn:

You haven't said what season, where you want to camp and how many people but I'm assuming you're talking about UK winter solo. 

If so, I'd definitely swap out the sack and tent. Osprey packs tend to be on the heavier side and Hillebergs are bomber but heavy (I use both quite frequently but only in certain conditions). For 5-7 days in winter, I take a 50l pack with everything inside, but food is the limiting factor. Any bigger a sack and you will just carry unnecessary stuff. I would take a look at Atom Packs, which will save you about 1.5kg straight away on a 60l pack. Shelter wise is really dependent on where and when you will mainly be using it, I would either look at UL shelters (something under 1kg from Zpacks, MLD, HMG) or if you are out in winter a lot, a simple, lightweight Bibler style tent. I just picked up an MSR Advance Pro for this kind of thing, which has a decent packsize. Neoair XTherms are a good lightweight winter mat. You also might be surprised how light a sleeping bag you can carry if you wear all your warm clothes in bed, a high quality 3 season bag goes a long way and will be well under 1kg. Unfortunately there is no ideal setup: lightweight, durable, cheap - choose two.

In reply to JStearn:  You can go a bit far doing that.. I have a Bibler style tent (MH Direkt 2) and while it is super light you will be very cold in it, especially in a long winter night.  They are very compromised for that - the single skin preserves no heat.  Having said that, with that tend, 4 season down bag and lightweight mat you can get tent, bag,mat under 2 kilos.

In reply to JStearn:

I’m seriously impressed. I’ve started doing big hill days with a single overnighter and would struggle with less than my Osprey 70l. Sleeping bag, mat and tent take up most space. Agree that only leaves variation of how much food.  I can get away with my Osprey 33l in summer but that’s due to reduced sleeping bag size and amount of clothing.

Is part of the question what are you planning to do on a day to day basis? If it’s long days then obviously a lighter bag is more desirable.

In reply to ImperialJohn:

Does anyone do Halfbags (elephant foot) anymore? In the sixties a good halfbag plus a good down jacket were good for -20C. Standard gear when alpine climbing in Washington Cascades and skiing in winter sleeping in parking lots. Some of the down gear then has still not been beaten. Another way is two light summer bags put together. The extra air gap gives lots of heat. Pack should be less than 50l. Food is the biggest item in winter. The basic pack and gear without food should be about 10kg.

In reply to ImperialJohn:

ditch the Hilleberg - bombproof tents but vastly overweight these days

In reply to ImperialJohn:

I'd get a lighter 1/2 person tent - that way it's roomy for you but can stretch to 2 if needed.  You should come in under 2kg for that.

Rucksacks are horrendous for adding weight.  Find a 50l and much lighter.

Don't compromise on the sleeping bag/mat - it's meant to be fun.

And don't take half the other crap that was filling the 70l!

In reply to ImperialJohn:

Obviously it all depends on the weather, distance and terrain you are travelling over, the comfort level you are willing to put up with, personal metabolism, where you choose to stay the night, how much you are willing to spend etc. However, here are some things that may help you lighten up based on my experience and learning from many other people bivvying / camping in all sorts of terrain, in particular between two and three thousand five hundred metres in the European Alps.

1) Bivvy bag if solo, two person tent if not. Single skin tent only if in dry and cold environment. Two person bivvy sack for more technical routes.

2) Thermarest z lite trimmed to my body shape and cut to 3/4 length or a 3/4 length inflatable mat. If z lite is too bulky and inflatable too risky ( eg; punctures from glacial gravel ) for certain routes then a standard foam mat cut into thirds / quarters and joined by gaffa tape so it can be folded rather than rolled works well.

3) Silk liner.

4) Wear hat, socks, base layer and gloves overnight.

5) Hot drink before sleep. Fatty food before sleep.

6) Hot water put into metal water bottle kept inside sleeping bag overnight.

7) Do some sit ups when first getting into bag.

8) Place spare warm clothing over the top of sleeping bag. If windy consider 'wearing' hard shell over legs.

9) Keep everything to hand for a brew in the morning ( or overnight if required ) so you don't need to get out of sleeping bag.

10) Consider pee bottle if you are likely to need to get up in the night.

11) Body on z lite, head on rucksack to act as pillow and there is an insulating mat in the back panel

12) Try not to breathe into the bivvy bag, keep an air hole by your mouth / nose

13) Choose as sheltered a spot from the wind as possible, Consider camping lower and getting up early to catch dawn from the summits.

14) All above allows me to really reduce sleeping bag size and weight. Typically a high quality 2 season down bag such as Rab / Mountain Equipment / Phd. ( Something around 600 g. )

15) Keep walking / climbing late and get up early.

16) Eat and drink as well as you can during the day.

17) All above means I can usually get away with a sub one kilo 45-50 litre bag ( bear in mind this usually has climbing kit in too )

Hope you find something useful in this lot,

M

In reply to Mark Haward:

Are you putting this in your pack? Surely it makes no real difference to bulk if it's on the outside, and is more prone to getting wet in the middle than a tightly rolled mat?

Also, is a bivvy bag sensible for a trip of a few days as per the OP? For a single night, definitely, but a few days? I'm not so sure.

In reply to ImperialJohn:

There was one occasion when I forgot my 4 season bag and just had my lightweight summer sleeping bag with me in October up a hill in Scotland and I nearly froze my rear off.

What temperatures are you expecting to experience? I find a 3 season bag rated down to -2 / -5 is fine for UK winter use in a tent.

In terms of a tent, how tall are you? If you're tall you may find a one man single hoop tent gives you trouble at your feet because the lack of height causes you to push the inner against the outer. Two hoop tunnels would alleviate that.

In reply to ImperialJohn:

I'd work out how much your kit weighs and how much you'll gain (lose!) by substitutions. Get the scales out and make a list or a spreadsheet. Food and water weights are quite a variable that you have some control over too. That and 'activity kit' if you're doing more than camping out (eg climbing, photography). You could find a kilo or two of weight saving is available for pennies rather than £100s for some simple choices. Anything you don't take weighs nothing.

On rucksack size I like big, preferably simple, but big so packing and rummaging are easy, and I've no problem with a 60 -80 litre bag if the weight is under 2 kg.They often feel lighter than the concentrated lump of a smaller pack so it can be a good trade off.

You were freezing in October? Was it sub zero? Good insulation kit can be bulky rather than heavy, ( score big pack ), so less point weight saving on the 'software'. As said above foam mats are usually lighter than inflatables.

The tent is a legitimate target though. Avoid mesh inners or large mesh panels and I'd go for a light two man twin entry model ( wind direction changes!) for solo use in winter. 1.5 -2kg would be realistic for a 5 season ( winter hill) tent. I'd consider a bivvy bag only an emergency solution - think driving rain...

Look out too for the cumulative weight of electronics, batteries and optional gadgets - it's surprising how it adds up.

Many folk find walking with poles makes a difference to perceived loads

Finally, boot choice can be significant.

In reply to Toerag:

Yes, inside pack for a cleaner profile - usually for when climbing / scrambling is involved

As stated in the intro, it does depend on weather / acceptable comfort levels / where you locate your camp etc. A single person tent is likely to be more comfortable.