Used vans? The good, the bad and the rusty

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 JSudd 07 Feb 2021

Hi all, after some general advice and user experience regarding purchasing a used van please (not after 'which model' advice as I've seen the recent thread).

A bit of context: I'm looking to get a mid sized van (e.g. Vauxhall vivaro) in the region of £2500-3500 to use for climbing trips in the UK and the continent. I'm a mature student and have a bit saved up for the initial purchase and insurance, and will be paying for any future maintenance and insurance with what I earn in uni holidays (when I'm not away in the van). 

My question is... am I setting myself up for a maintenance nightmare by looking for a van so cheap and inevitable well-used? If anyone has any good or bad experience please share.

On a side note - if anyone reading this is selling a van in West Yorkshire (that's not a complete rust bucket) in that price bracket please let me know! I'm waiting until this lockdown ends and whatever I buy will need to be local so no rush   

Post edited at 20:13
 pwo 07 Feb 2021
In reply to JSudd:

Bide your time and keep looking. I waited about three months before I found one that met my criteria. I managed to get a Vivaro with full service history, one owner with 80k on the clock for £3500. No major issues whatsoever and completely rust free. I’ve converted it to a camper for a tad under £2K. Although saying that previous ‘vans’ just had a mattress in the back. Really important that you know what your looking at and if in doubt walk away.it’s your money. I deliberately avoided all the ex high mileage fleet vehicles. My vivaro has the duplex chain timing not the belt variety so doesn’t need replacing anywhere as often as a belt.

OP JSudd 07 Feb 2021
In reply to pwo:

Thanks for taking the time to write this Sounds like you struck gold there! I think unfortunately the market for used vans has increased as more people are expecting staycations in the next few years but ho hum. I'd be the mattress-on-floor type  

Edit - Where did you find your van? I'm currently scouring gumtree, autotrader and ebay

Post edited at 20:45
 HeMa 07 Feb 2021
In reply to JSudd:

For What its worth, getting even older one (but one that is still readily available, also with spares) might be smart. Easier to fix, can even do some yerself. 

 CMcBain 07 Feb 2021
In reply to JSudd;

I always think the £2000 - £5000 budget can be a bit of a black hole. Loads of ragged vans in that price bracket. It’s enough money to be a pain if you get unlucky in van lottery and not really enough money to get the security of a new(ish) and/or lower mileage van. The problem is exacerbated the larger the van you want as they tend to be dearer.

Can you get away with something cheaper and smaller? Berlingo sized maybe? 

 pwo 07 Feb 2021
In reply to JSudd:

Really happy with my find but I got it pre COVID so I agree that such vans may be harder to source. I scoured eBay, gumtree and autotrader and in the end found it on eBay but refused to handover dosh until I got my mitts on it and that it was as described (which it clearly was). There are genuine people out there although saying that there were some absolute heaps of choss . Top tip... don’t go on a first date in a van with a mattress in the back. We ended up married! 

 mik82 07 Feb 2021
In reply to JSudd:

It's a difficult time to be buying a van. People are asking silly money for things, probably driven by both the home delivery boom and the whole van-life thing. I suspect at some point there'll be a glut of partially converted and ex-delivery vehicles but who knows when that'll be.

 J101 07 Feb 2021
In reply to mik82:

Also a fair few people have been buying with covid business loans or grants which has pushed prices up a bit.

To the OP I'd add avoid ex fleet vehicles, too much chance they've been driven badly increasing the wear. If you don't own the van you're less inclined to be careful with it.

No matter what any seller tells you get underneath and check for rust, as well as the inner arches which are expensive to fix. Once there's been a bit of welding done you often find the rest of the area has been waxoyl treated which hides any more problems that occur until they get really bad. 

As others have said there's decent vans out there at that price but you'll need to put in some effort to find them.

Post edited at 21:49
In reply to JSudd:

I have been looking for a van for over two years. My minimum requirement is a full documented service history.

This seems to narrow it down to considering about one van every eight months! 

The lack of service history of any vehicle is a red flag as I see it.

Then, when someone has spent £10K doing up a van they want to recoup that £10K from the sale. But there is a difference between the money spent and the true value: spending £10K doing up a £2K van does not make the van worth £12K.

Settle in for a long search!

In reply to JSudd:

I got a SWB boxer in really good condition for £4000 off eBay last year. Much better for a camper conversion than a vivaro in my opinion because for roughly the same size on the road it's much bigger inside. 1.85m side to side after cladding!

My previous one was a transit which I lost to rust. That would be my only real bit of advice - after you've put the work into a conversion it's soul-destroying seeing it rust to pieces. Most other major faults can be fixed but once the chassis starts rotting away it's only a matter of time. Whatever you do, avoid vehicles with structural rust.

 Dax H 08 Feb 2021
In reply to JSudd:

Damn I wish you had posted this last week. I let my Renault traffic go for £800.

194k on the clock, 11 plate owned from new. Never let me down, zero rust (they are galvanised), air con, maintained better than the book because it was my main work tool. 

I only replaced it because I got a good deal on 6 new and slightly larger vans in 2019, we kept mine as a spare but I got fed up of seeing it unused in the yard. I would rather have passed it on to someone on here instead of the random Irish guy with a pocket full of £20s

OP JSudd 08 Feb 2021
In reply to CMcBain:

I've considered it yeah, only issue is I'm 6'5" so need a bit more in the way of bed length. Ways round this I've thought of are a) find a small van with a front seat that folds flat so I can poke my legs out. b) wider bed and foetal position haha! Thanks for the advice 

OP JSudd 08 Feb 2021
In reply to pwo:

Oh goodness sounds awful  

OP JSudd 08 Feb 2021
In reply to J101:

Thanks for the advice  

OP JSudd 08 Feb 2021
In reply to Dax H:

Hey ho, it just wasn't meant to be ey Appreciate the thought though! 

 FBSF 08 Feb 2021
In reply to JSudd:

I will be getting rid of a fiat scudo high top,lwb partial conversion in a few weeks. It was my first attempt at a home conversion so bit ropey in parts.  Carpeted, insulation, basic electrics, diesel heater, skylight, 1 side window. The vans done 128k, new clutch at 90k along with new egr valve and timing belt. The vans got a few battle scars which will reflect in the price!! Let us know if your intrested. Pics in my gallery

OP JSudd 08 Feb 2021
In reply to FBSF:

I'll have a look, cheers I've emailed you

Post edited at 09:51
 pwo 08 Feb 2021
In reply to JSudd:

Well we’re still together over 43 years later. 

 Ramon Marin 08 Feb 2021
In reply to JSudd:

Take your time looking online and test driving a few. I personally would stay away from Vitos and Sprinters, total rust buckets. I'd stay away from VW as well, crap vans from all my mates experiences. Vivaros can be good if you dodge the injector issue, easily spottable on a test drive. As said above, I'd probably would go for a Boxer if I were you. I bought an unsexy Movano, fully pro converted, 62k on the clock for £6700, a steal. Just had to be picked up from teh bottom of Cornwall! And so glad I did a nationwide search. It's been a dream van, done £215k and going strong. Not a spot of rust. I could sell it now and still get the same money I paid for.

1
 Qwerty2019 08 Feb 2021
In reply to JSudd:

Annnnnnd, just to counter the last post.  I have worked for Ford, Iveco, VW & Mercedes.  I reckon i have had pretty much every current van through my hands at one time or another and EVERY single one of them has its issues. 

Renault Traffic/Vauxhall Vivaro - Car mechanicals which were never and still are not up to the job.  Ok for 50-70,000mls but after that you are lucky not to get a big bill.  When i get trade underwrites, the traders always bid under book for them to cover for £1000-£1500 repairs to put right.

Ford Transit or custom - No fleet manager ever lost his job for running Fords was the old motto.  Engineered for about 150-200,000mls and pretty much middle of the road.  Unfortunately Ford have buggered up their parts and service side which means they are off the road more than they are on the road.  They quibble about everything and tbh their current offerings are soft as shit.  Door hinges dropping, trim breaking, engines breaking.  They were always engineered to feel good on the touch test but at least they would last 3yrs +.  Now they struggle for that.  Usually book properly so are trusted in the trade.

Merc Sprinter/vito - Rust is a by gone issue.  The reason you see a rusty Modern Merc is they have been damaged.  They have galv panels same as others.  But they outsell all the other brands for deliveries drivers so end up battered and rusty.  Tailgating people on a motorway at 100mph and it gets chicken pox on the front.  Galv is just another finish, break it and you get rust.  But the mechanicals are easily capable of 300,000 +.  We have customers on 500,000.  They were over engineered until the latest offering which are much more in line with the competition.  Thin panels, reduced mechanical engineering and unfortunately more to go wrong.  MASSIVELY OVER BOOK at present.  We are paying £2-3000 more for similar age vehicles we bought 12mths ago

Iveco Daily - Pile of rubbish.  Set fire to it.  Only ever bought on price and a real struggle to keep running well.  Engine and gearbox is reliable but, good god is it a pita to keep the rest running well.  Traders will usually insult us for them so we go back and insult the customer.  Eventually you end up at a middle ground but they basically throw the book away on these.

VW Crafter /Transporter - Crafter is similar to the Sprinter but it wasn't always.  Previous models, the Merc sprinter mechanical were much much better.  Now it much more even.  More the sprinter has reduced its levels than VW improved.  All down to Emission laws and reaching targets.  Crafter does not get the residuals of the Merc but are usually cheaper to buy so it balances out.  Transporter has a category of its own and you either buy into the high residual to begin with or you dont.  It used to be the best van on the road (T4).  Now it is, same as Merc a compromised vehicle on emissions, reliability and price.  Crafter books well compared to everything other than Merc.  Transporter has a book of its own.  Good seller.

So to the original OP question.  At £2500=£3000 you are buying the last life of a van.  It has had its main life and you are getting what's left.  What that equates to can be a nightmare or a delight.  Service history, number of owners, Paint finish etc etc.  It doesn't matter a jot.  You will have to take each van as it comes and take it from there.  I have bought/traded in vans of similar ilk probably 1000 times and its a 50/50 trade off as to whether you are getting a van that starts 24hrs later or a van that needs a new injector/water pump/suspension componant/starter motor/ignition system etc etc etc.  We have seen them all and in general what i have said above tends to apply.  It usually washes out in the long run.

In reply to Shaun mcmurrough:

Hi Shaun

Thanks. It could be! Does it have a full and documented service history?

In reply to Qwerty2019:

Thanks for your insider expertise.

But you make statements about the book which I don't understand, such as:

"Usually book properly so are trusted in the trade."

I guess this is commom jargon in tghe trade but I cant work out what it means.

Can anyone help?

 Toerag 08 Feb 2021
In reply to pancakeandchips:

> My previous one was a transit which I lost to rust. That would be my only real bit of advice - after you've put the work into a conversion it's soul-destroying seeing it rust to pieces. Most other major faults can be fixed but once the chassis starts rotting away it's only a matter of time.

^^ this. You can't change a rusty shell but you can change anything else that breaks.

 Qwerty2019 08 Feb 2021
In reply to mountain.martin:

Guide values.  Normally cap or glass’s.  They are just that though, guides and at present they are all over the place.  The basics still stand though, if traders don’t trust a particular model it’s because they have a bad reputation etc.  I have seen enough of them myself to make my own mind up.
 

As I said earlier, at the value you are talking having a good look at the van and a good test drive is worth more than a piece of paper with a service history on it.  I have seen mint looking vans turn into money pits and absolute sheds that have 200,000mls on them come back in 3 years later with 350,000 on them with an owner who loves it to bits.

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

> Hi Shaun

> Thanks. It could be! Does it have a full and documented service history?

Yes...it's my daughter boyfriend's van.

He's only just put up for sale...number is in the link.

Post edited at 22:10
 Jimp97 09 Feb 2021
In reply to Qwerty2019:

Which model of sprinter marked the end of the rust issue mate?

 Qwerty2019 09 Feb 2021
In reply to Jimp97:

The reason you see a rusty Modern Merc is they have been damaged.
 

They have had galv on selected panels for years.  They increased it towards the end of the previous model. For example they have never galvanised the rear doors.  You don’t get stone chips on a rear door so why bother.  Unfortunately most are used by hairy arsed builders and delivery drivers jamming gear in the door shuts so they end up with rust all around the bottom and up the middle of the two doors.  Same situation with the side load door.  Break the paint and galv and yes it will still rust.  Same with bonnet etc when tailgating.  Interesting find was they couldn’t understand why sprinters were rusting at rear end where rear side window would be.  Turned out the door hinges at the back were so strong they were causing the corner to twist if the door was caught by wind.  This cracked the galv and paint and they ended up rusting.  Later sprinters of the previous model have extra bracing internally to stop this.  Amazing having strong hinges caused rust.  The latest model has lots Of rust proofing but is unfortunately built using similar gauge steel as it’s competition now so it’s a trade off.     Looks nice but panel slap etc does my head in and I’m not liking the softer feel of everything else but I suppose it’s progress.  If I was buying a sprinter I would get the best 3-4 yr old 316 model I could.  I have a customer with a 4 year old Sprinter on 200,000mls, parcel delivery and his van has never needed a thing, looks brand new and I can’t honestly tell him a new van would be as good as what he has.  I have other customers who bring back 2yr old vans that are covered in damage, rust and run like a bag of nails with 50,000mls on them.

I have been to the factory a couple of times.  I’ve seen the paint and galv process.  It’s quite amazing to see.  I’ve also been to the Ford and Iveco factories.  

 ian caton 10 Feb 2021
In reply to JSudd:

Go to van auction brighouse. Go and watch first time, it is weekly if running because of covid. You will at least see how much they go for. 

Know the prices of vans you have looked at elsewhere. Find out costs of big ticket items. Gearbox, cylinder head. Discount price by that amount. 

Look at vans carefully. See something tidy, be there when they start it. It needs to start first time from cold and sound good. They can start anything pretty much. Mileage whatever they say is unknown. Fsh is always bollocks even if they say it has. Buy it and change cam belt straight away. 

I have had some decent buys that way.

I once bought a new caddy for work which I didn't look after much. When it went around the 100k I looked at wear on pedals etc. There was none. It could have been made to look like a brand new van no problem. Take care. 

OP JSudd 10 Feb 2021
In reply to ian caton:

Thanks for this  

 Qwerty2019 10 Feb 2021
In reply to ian caton:

Pretty good advice.  Been in the motor trade for 25yrs.  Zero mechanical experience.  Its usually just a guessing game of seeing the van, knowing its a reasonable price and having some money left over for any issues.

The van i own, i sold new, i knew the customer, knew its service history and when he came to trade it in i bought it off him.  There arent many like that but if it had ended up on our forecourt, by the time it was for sale it wouldnt have looked any better than the rest of the vans with much less love and care.

 bobpilgrem 10 Feb 2021
In reply to JSudd:

I would suggest you get an AA inspection/test drive of vehicle before parting with

any cash.If seller is genuine they should have no objections.

I had one done on a Vivaro recently, a few minor things showed up, which were

sorted prior to purchase.

AA Engineer rang me and said “it’s a good one - buy it “

You also need to be prepared to walk away, which is hard if you have payed for the report,

but better in the long term.

Good luck.

OP JSudd 10 Feb 2021
In reply to bobpilgrem:

Thanks for this. When you got the AA to inspect it did they come out or did you 'test-drive' it to a garage? Have got a viewing on one this weekend potentially, bloke seems genuine. 

OP JSudd 10 Feb 2021
In reply to Qwerty2019:

Thanks Sounds like it's good to know people in the trade. And you're right it will be a gamble I suppose, have to rely on peoples honesty to an extent. 

 mcdougal 10 Feb 2021
In reply to JSudd:

Loads of good advice on this thread. All I'd add is to think about buying something with a tailgate rather than barn doors. If you park facing the wind you'll get a lovely spot to sit out of the wind and the tailgate will keep the rain off. 

OP JSudd 10 Feb 2021
In reply to mcdougal:

Cheers And yeah I agree, it's given me lots to think about. Feel a bit better prepared 

 Jimp97 10 Feb 2021
In reply to Qwerty2019:

Nice one thanks mate, I'd heard they had issues with the side trims as well, something to do with water collecting due to how they were held on, apparently this was the main issue with the sills rusting.

I'm looking for a 313 extra high roof at the minute so your advice is much appreciated, thank you! 

 laughitup 10 Feb 2021
In reply to Qwerty2019:

Hey mate, 

Been considering an expert/scudo/dispatch long wheel high top. Have you had much experience with these/anything to look out for?

 bobpilgrem 10 Feb 2021
In reply to JSudd:

Hi. They will contact seller and arrange to inspect vehicle at sellers location, and  then to take it for a short (20 min) test drive .

You don't need to be there.

AA inspector called me  straight away to give a  brief report, followed by a very comprehensive written report.

I'm not a mechanic, and wouldn't comprehend making a purchase without an inspection.

My van is going well - money well spent.

Good Luck

PS I would inspect/view van on your own.If you think it looks decent agree a  price - ,'subject to a satisfactory  AA inspection'.

Any decent seller should agree to this. If not - walk.

Post edited at 19:43
 Osiris 10 Feb 2021
In reply to JSudd:

I got a 5 year old fiat doblo with 45000 miles for £4000. It's been great. Done 20k without any major issues. Still cost hundreds with typical faults. I just accept that it will. No service history, so it was a gamble, but it probably will be, no matter what you buy. I just throw money at it if I have to, I'm not the type to do much myself, but I also know someone who used a beat up Renault van that he paid £500 for and it worked out for him for a year in Europe. Why not think about getting a LWB version of a smaller van e.g. caddy, doblo/combo, connect. It's perfectly adequate for one person, if you can sacrifice, and you'll likely get a van in better condition.

 Osiris 10 Feb 2021
In reply to mcdougal:

I really wished I had a tailgate. I've spent so long faffing around with rain covers that don't really work.

OP JSudd 10 Feb 2021
In reply to Osiris:

Thanks for the advice I've come to the conclusion that I could manage with something like a Peugeot Expert/ Fiat Dolbo. Smallest van I can find with a 2m load length (I'm quite tall!). Low roof would be fine, all I need is somewhere to kip in the car park in winter (in summer will likely camp or hammock). The search continues! 

 J101 11 Feb 2021
In reply to JSudd:

If that's all you want then would you consider an estate / MPV instead?

Seeing as you're close to 2m tall you'll likely need to find something you can get the passenger seat down to form part of the bed though. 

Post edited at 07:16
OP JSudd 11 Feb 2021
In reply to J101:

I have considered it yeah, something like a Berlingo. From my research there are very few cars/ mpvs with a flat folding front seat but I'll continue looking. Nice thing about having a van would be that I'd insulate it and could fit a 3/4 bed in to share with my climbing partner (rather than them bivvying outside haha)

Post edited at 08:10
 J101 11 Feb 2021
In reply to JSudd:

It's only the Galaxy or Grand Espace that get 2m length with the back seats down and there aren't loads about 2nd hand so narrows the choice quite a bit. I've been looking for one for a while but think I'm going to get a decent van for work and use that to go away in as well.

I'm only 5'10" though so have been looking at Grand Picasso, Zafira etc which are readily available 2nd hand.

Post edited at 08:48
 artif 11 Feb 2021
In reply to JSudd:

> Thanks for the advice I've come to the conclusion that I could manage with something like a Peugeot Expert/ Fiat Dolbo. Smallest van I can find with a 2m load length (I'm quite tall!). Low roof would be fine, all I need is somewhere to kip in the car park in winter (in summer will likely camp or hammock). The search continues! 

As already said, I'd look for an estate, older Merc or Volvo as they have a flat load area, cheaper to buy and look after, better drive and cheaper on the tolls.

Previous Merc E320 we picked up for £500 and ran it for 80k miles (we got it at 100K) before it finally killed the gearbox (replaced the exhaust, fuel pump and tyres), second one ran up to 200K (purchased at 150K, paid £950) also replaced exhaust but the wiring loom eventually gave up. Current £500 Volvo V70, much less comfortable than the mercs, is on 160K bought at 100K, again replaced exhaust, battery and on the last MOT a cv boot. None of them got serviced, just check the brakes etc and top up with oil when needed.

 Osiris 12 Feb 2021
In reply to JSudd:

Low roof is ok, but definitely hold out for a long wheel base. I wish I had, but I manage fine with it. Mind, fiat doblo and vauxhall combo are the same vans. Kingspan and carpet keeps the condensation away!

Removed User 12 Feb 2021
In reply to HeMa:

> For What its worth, getting even older one (but one that is still readily available, also with spares) might be smart. Easier to fix, can even do some yerself. 

That's terrible advice, even for someone with reasonable mechanical skills.

My mate Stu (who I paid attention to on such things because I knew f*all myself and it was his living) always said that motor vehicles are impacted by:

1. How many miles/engine cycles they've done.  Just the wear and tear from that many cycles and metal-on-metal rubs (even when well oiled).  Petrol suffers higher accelerations = more force = shorter life.  Stu says 100k is run away time, so a 90k motor has 10k of useful planned life.

2. Pure age.  If you just own a vehicle it degrades over time.  Rubber hardens, rust creeps, welds flex.  Also technology goes obsolete.

Stu would have said look for a low-mid mileage diesel with sensible servicing and pay £1-2k more.  You'll easily save that over the time you own it.

Or better still, buy a bike and camp.  You'll be a better human being for it.

 Ian W 12 Feb 2021
In reply to JSudd:

Its been an interesting read, this thread; If you can make it up to Bishop Auckland area, we've got a 2014 Vivaro medium with 135k (ish) on the clock, has had a full gearbox rebuild, as has been said above, our mechanic (part of our business was a garage workshop) reckons the 'boxes are made of cheese.  A bit scruffy inside and needs a decent clean all over. Only poss problem as a climbing van is it has a full bulkhead, so cant access cab from back. Drives fine, no real issues, after £4k ish. Also a 2017 Combo turbo diesel, 48k miles. Very clean, except it has a dent on the sliding door, and our maintenance guy parked it very much too close to the vehicle in front a couple of years back (properly repaired under insurance). Again, well looked after mechanically. I can send you photo's if you want early next week. Would want £4.5k for this one.

Unless Qwerty says otherwise - he's forgotten more about vans than anyone else on here will ever know.

Post edited at 21:35
 Wee Davie 12 Feb 2021
In reply to JSudd:

Don't worry about a van. You can sleep 3 in the back of a Peugeot 309 Style edition if you all go spoons.

 HeMa 13 Feb 2021
In reply to Removed UserBilberry:

> That's terrible advice, even for someone with reasonable mechanical skills.

Yes and No.

> 1. How many miles/engine cycles they've done.  Just the wear and tear from that many cycles and metal-on-metal rubs (even when well oiled).  Petrol suffers higher accelerations = more force = shorter life.  Stu says 100k is run away time, so a 90k motor has 10k of useful planned life.

Old VW T3 engines can run for around 500 000 km if maintained no problems. Never motors seem to die out at 300 000 km... or earlier. We are talking about diesel though, as that is what most vans run on.

> 2. Pure age.  If you just own a vehicle it degrades over time.  Rubber hardens, rust creeps, welds flex.  Also technology goes obsolete.

Yes, and they depend on how the van vas kept. Rust is not an issue if it was maintained. Rubber gasket will get replaced when too hard and so on... the best part is that some of them even a complete idiot can change.... some requires work though.

> Stu would have said look for a low-mid mileage diesel with sensible servicing and pay £1-2k more.  You'll easily save that over the time you own it.

Yes,... but if the budget is ~4000, you simply won't get a good van... Not even at 6000 me thinks. That is a new'ish well maintained one. But a good T4 from a private seller (e.g. one person plumber or such), might be feasible. And for a small company, the van is something they tend to keep in good condition (they need it for their daily work, and it is also spendy to get replaced).

OP JSudd 13 Feb 2021
In reply to Ian W:

Cheers Ian I'll get back to you on this 

OP JSudd 13 Feb 2021
In reply to Wee Davie:

I'm assuming this is from experience hahah 

 Billhook 13 Feb 2021
In reply to JSudd:

I owned a Vauxhall Combi van.  the passenger seat folded down giving me ample headroom when asleep if needed.  I also made a simple lift out bed/shelf on the passenger side so i could put kit underneath.  I used it quite a bit for overnight stops.  

But it did get rather cramped and claustrophobic if I was staying somewhere for more than a week - such as Scotland in winter!!.


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