UKH

Reading Twight's "Extreme alpinism" he recommends a base layer that is quite windproof and only semi breathable. e.g. in cold conditions windshirt over thermals, or just windshirt if it's warmer. Then for belays/extra warmth if needed adding insulation on top. (This is in contrast to the traditional layering system that often requires you to remove layers before adding them).

Apparently for this to work the insulation-on-top has to be "more breathable the further from skin they are [...] the fabric of the outer layer should be as breathable as possible [...] durable, stretch woven material that blocks some wind and sheds snow [...] alternatively, microfiber is quite windproof and water-repellent but breathes far better than gore-tex and its relatives"

Does this contradict the modern approach of belay jackets with a windproof/semibreathable outer layer? or are those breathable enough for the above system to work, with it only failing if gore-tex or similar is used on top?

Does it contradict the recent arcteryx proton review? "There has been a trend for "active insulation" in recent winters: synthetically insulated jackets made with air permeable outer layers that allow wind through. This takes away excess heat and sweat but then again if the air permeability means wind takes the warmth away, it's not really successful insulation, is it? ... because of the air permeable nature of the fabric I suspect it wouldn't work so well as a super-light belay jacket for rock climbing in the mountains in the summer. For that sort of use, a more classic light synthetic filled jacket that is more windproof would work better"

Basically I'm trying to figure out whether to buy a more breathable active-insulation synthetic jacket, or something slightly more windproof (but not goretex). What do we think?
 

What's your intended use?

If you intend to wear it whilst moving, get an "active" insulation jacket, if it's for use as a light belay jacket, get a classic synthetic.

Using the Patagonia range as an example, the nano air would be the jacket whilst moving, the nano puff the jacket suitable as a light belay jacket (summer).

So do you think your rule is an alternative to Twight's system - as the latter suggests belay jackets should be maximally breathable - or do you think it's the same thing - as maybe that book meant "maximally breathable compared to gore-tex"?

Sometimes it will be for use when moving (when it's cold), sometimes just stationary (as a belay jacket) - depending on conditions encountered on route. Unless someone can convince me otherwise, I don't intend to carry 2 lightweight midlayers up alpine routes (seeing as I'll have a heavyweight insulating jacket as well).

I suspect solutions will be individually metabolism, activity and weather dependent. For example, do you sweat a lot or hardly at all ( still transpiring moisture but less actual liquid)? How big a temperature gradient from skin to ambient temperature? Is your outer layer wetted over, or frozen?

My own experience as someone who runs hot with a high metabolic rate is that I need a wicking layer next to my skin, and then transmission layer(s). I run hot enough if moving to cope without much insulation and would err on the wind permeable side.  A single Buffalo pile & pertex layer works well for me tho I sometimes add  a Brynge polypropylene string vest in case I soak the Buffalo pile too much. On another recent thread the behaviour of eg Pertex under Goretex was briefly discussed and that seems to bear out the idea of increasing breathability in outer layers.

The Belay jacket question might be slightly different- My understanding is a winter BJ goes over everything short term, effectively wrapping you in a castle when you aren't fully active. If it's on over a Goretex shell say, all the vapour thermodynamics are compromised and you're trading moisture management for warmth, albeit potentially damp warmth. Two Buffalos would probably be my ideal to wear, but a pig to carry!

EDIT: just annoying typos!]

Base layer

Nano Air

Windshirt (Arcteryx Squamish best as cuff adjustment makes it an excellent fit over a puffy layer, also not expensive for its wide range of use and astonishing durability and wind proof/breathability balance)

Worn in any of the obvious combinations. Sorted for 3 season use.

I've not read Extreme Alpinism for a long time and don't have a copy at hand here at work. If what I'm saying differs from Mark Twight, I know who's advice I'd be taking!

Personally, I really like a gridded micro fleece as a winter base, with an active insulation mid and windproof/waterproof outer. Belay jacket in the bag. For alpine summer, I've have a t-shirt base, gridded fleece as a mid with a windproof. Waterpoof and belay jacket in the sac.

A good belay jacket will be windproof but breathable ie. not a membrane. That's all he is really saying. Plus hes saying if its not raining why wear "goretex" - obviously some snow is v wetting so then its ok (e.g. "..PNW or Scotland..") but hes advocating softshell on top of the best wicking underlayers you can find and a "DAS" style belay jacket. There are loads around  Fitzroy, Citadel, DAS etc etc

I've pretty much universally ignored every comment anyone has ever made on what they are wear doing x and y. We all run hot and cold differently, have different preferences over pit zips/round necks, zipped fronts, have different fitness and move at different speeds in different weather's on different terrain. 

If your getting up into the EDs, then most folk will find works through trial and error on the ADs, Diffs etc as they gain experience. 

The guy has near zero body fat, a bit of cake will give him energy and add a layer of insulation, (I do like his training philosophy though). 

Absolutely. The only way is to try different combinations and see what works. I find these threads hilarious - I'd barely be warm enough sitting in a warm car wearing what most people seem to advocate for winter climbing!

Agreed, not that I do winter climbing any more. I have to say though, nobody ever suggests "slowing down a bit" so you don't overheat / sweat to start with.

From memory* though Robert, I'm surprised you can swing an axe the amount of jackets you need to wear in winter!

*of previous threads, I might be wrong....

I think for cold and drier conditions, what Mark says makes total sense. For wintery hillwalking, I run a lightweight and breathable baselayer and windproof combo (with lightweight fleece hoody added in-between if needed) or a buffalo active shirt and then layer on top. Either a waterproof if the heavens open, or a big old synthetic insulation layer if we stop. 

I think he's trying to say that a baselayer, followed by a full weight waterproof, followed by a massive insulated layer will simply lead to being mega sweaty. It seems Mark's system is based upon being very stop start - climbing quickly, getting super sweaty, and then stopping to belay and needing to chuck an insulating layer on but allow that sweat to escape.

As a sweaty Betty, this makes sense. 

Andy KP's views on the matter are interesting:

https://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/blog/view/belay-jackets-revisited

I wrote that about the Arcteryx jacket. Breathable and air permeable are not really the same. Think of a classic buffalo mountain shirt, the pertex on the outside is quite windproof but they still breathe very well. The Arcteryx proton I think is designed to let wind through. It really doesn't make good belay jacket.

This lad knows his onions. 

Interesting, thank you. I've not owned a buffalo but I have an old rab vapour rise pullover (no full length zip) - is that similar?

(too hot for me, mind! I think I'm in the hot and sweaty category when moving).

All this leaves me more confused than ever on what to get. In an ideal world I'd buy and try them all as some other posters recommend but that's an expensive road to go down! Is there anything that makes a good all rounder - thin packable belay jacket for spring/autumn cragging but also midlayer (to go over the windshirt) when cold and moving on a big mountain?

Mountain Equipment Kinesis is pretty much designed to be this. It's quite light and thin, but is very windproof and adds a good amount of warmth while able to pass moisture well and dry quickly. My favorite use for mine is as a trad belay jacket, it packs into one of the pockets with a biner loop. It takes all the wind off and adds a good amount of warmth. 

I guess for similar conditions it would do the same role hillwalking. I'd probably get too hot in it on any serious uphill unless it is really cold, but I run pretty warm. 

My sense is that things have changed a bit since Twight's EA - in some ways for the better: generally lighter and seemingly slightly more breathable climbing hard shells, more breathable semi-wind protective mid layer insulation (ptech alpha etc.), and in some ways for worse: the seeming demise (correct me if wrong @TobyA?) of properly windproof and sufficiently durable uninsulated non-membrane soft-shell outers e.g. patagonia readymix - in favour of stretch woven soft shells which don't offer that much protection from strong winds so necessitate a hardshell in harsh cold weather. 

That said probably the bigger difference is that fast ascents as pioneered by Twight etc. are increasingly the norm (helped by all the crazy light kit now available e.g. efficient and reliable in the cold jetboil-style stoves are now ubiquitous - didn't exist before mid noughties, warm light single winter boots, much much lighter racks, leashless ice tools that make steep terrain comparatively straightforward and much faster etc etc), which coupled with ever better weather forecasts and conditions info lets people tailor kit to the day so to speak. 

what's ptech alpha?

Polartech alpha

An interesting point. Are softshells now, in some ways, worse? Less windproof but more breathable? 

I think you're right here! Although, not if I'm involved....

His training philosophy?

The one in Extreme Alpinism? The one he’s expressly abandoned? Or the one he espouses now?

I'd have thought after a few years of walking/climbing in hills most adults would be capable of making up their own mind about what 'system' works for them.

Like many on here I came from an time when my mum told me to put an extra jumper on because it was snowing.  I soon discovered that I didn't need to.  So I stopped.  Then she told me to wear a thicker overcoat.  But that got too heavy and wasn't waterproof, so I found an old army jacket in the shed which did much better...................................................................

Look -  different things work in slightly different ways for different people.  Because most people's metabolic rate, fitness, weight, size sweatiness, speed and so on is different.

That said I do have a lovely shirt (TOG24) or something which appears to be thin and windproof and its certainly warm when I wear it in winter.  But it was given to me by my brother who thought it was too cold.

'Clothing systems' are invented by companies, to be worn by people who are willing to pay for systems that don't necessarily work for everyone.  This is why you've got to make up your own mind by trying stuff out.  

If there was a 'system' that worked for all, they'd be only one type of outfit for all.

TLDR, "I'm skeptical of everything the outdoor industry markets at me therefore it's better to buy EVERYTHING and try it out rather than seeking recommendations from others"?

Abandoned? You think he's changed that radically or just rephrasing to sell his second book? From what I've read he still believes in a strong core fitness and developing mental drive etc. There's no getting fit with just a few gentle hills or getting fit for the alps on the walk in! 

Twight didn't leave Gym Jones. Gym Jones left Twight. 

Is "training for the new alpinism" substantially different to the training chapter of "extreme alpinism" then?

They are chalk and cheese. Twight is an entertaining read, but pretty dated.

TFTNA is a much drier affair, more like an academic text book.

A huge difference - and IMHO TFTNA is a far superior book (I own both books).

TFTNA provides a huge amount of information of just about every conceivable aspect of (serious) training for mountaineering/alpinism/expeditions.

Its been such a while since EA was published, fabric technology (and training science) has changed so much that it could almost be read as an historical document... this is what was available at the time for the type of climbing that Mark was doing. What suited him was fast and light- with an action suit and an insulation suit- as it were.

Having said that, considering the philosophy that he worked along the lines of "the mind is primary" Light and Fast and all that kind of stuff- was kind of picked up and run with by Steve House. (I think there have been a fair number of places that Mark mentions that the Slovak route was almost the point where there was a "passing of the torch" to Steve as the new exponent of this climbing philosophy)- so it is really appropriate that Training for a New Alpinism is probably the place to look for the updated stuff. With that in mind, I guess that it really isn't surprising that TFANA is a "much better book". On the shoulders of Giants and all that.

In terms of the training philosophy he espouses now, I don't think he specifically prescribes to anything right now, having somewhat fallen out of love with training in general- though he would probably still say something along the lines of:

Work out what you need to be able to do in training in order to do the thing you want to do. Then get to it. If you fail, evaluate why you failed- and then evolve, Get better. Don't stop asking questions, don't stop learning. Don't be satisfied by what you think you know.

There again, Im totally putting words into his mouth- so take that with a pinch of salt.

in terms of the layering system - bouldery bits is probably the closest to what might be called the truth.

Can you expand on this? I haven't been to the Gym Jones site for years... but I remember it as forward-looking a decade ago?

Twight’s current training space/media empire https://www.nonprophet.media/

Twight had some disagreements with other stakeholders in the Gym Jones set up. Mark's view is that training should be for a purpose, to get better at something so as to be able to have an experience.

Mark felt that Gym Jones was becoming entirely about what you could do in the gym and the core of the philosophy, transfering the training to something else, had been lost. Mark made this point regularly in his weekly 'sermons', as they were termed, and was eventually put in a position where remaining seemed untenable. 

So whilst Mark did leave GJ, GJ's philosophy has drifted too far from the original core ideas to still be GJ. 

The Non Prophet podcast covers this and lots of other interesting stuff. Plus dogs. Lots of dogs. 

It’s interesting that it seems ok to Twight if that ‘purpose’ was looking buff for a movie!

I think that purpose was getting paid! 

Thanks for that I will have a look at NonProfit... Although as someone that now spends more time Crossfitting than climbing... I may no be target audience

You sound like the perfect audience! The ‘Space’ section at the bottom of the page is fairly regularly updated with short essays followed by WODs