/ Trad gear from china?

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Seen a few adverts on ebay for nuts from china, im doubtful of the quality of them, just seeing if anybody has actually tried them ?

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Deadeye - on 07:28 Thu
In reply to Northernladlovesgravy:

I wouldn't... And doubt most people would.  Quality control has a purpose!

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Mike505 on 07:30 Thu
In reply to Northernladlovesgravy:

With descriptions like this

'Pack of 12pcs Safety Rock Climbing Tree Carving Anchor Nuts Plugs Equipment'

I sincerely hope no one has bought a set! Anyway they're clearly marketing them towards arborists.

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DaveHK - on 07:33 Thu
In reply to Mike505:

> With descriptions like this

> ' Nuts Plugs 

That's probably a typo. 

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beardy mike - on 07:37 Thu
In reply to Northernladlovesgravy:

Nope. Quality control is hard enough to maintain without leaving it entirely up to them...

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beardy mike - on 07:40 Thu
In reply to Northernladlovesgravy:

If you’ve got to go for cheap, Kouba do some basic sets that will serve a purpose...

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tjin - on 07:47 Thu

A set of 10 from LACD is actually cheaper to buy, from reputable retailers in Europe. 

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beardy mike - on 08:07 Thu
In reply to tjin:

Just took a look, their stuff looks like it’s all open mould, at one point I asked them if they would like me to design their own stuff, they declined. I could be wrong, but it looks like to me it’s all stuff from a Chinese company called King Snap (yes I’m not kidding, someone DID think it would be a good idea to call a climbing hardware company king snap). Couldn’t tell you about their quality control, but I can pretty much guarantee that king snap will be doing it, not LACD. Kouba by contrast is all made in Czech, and at one point I believe they assembled WC rocks - long before moving to China that is...

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RR on 08:10 Thu
In reply to Northernladlovesgravy:

It’s very likely scam! You can end up with a lot of trouble with your credit card business (by experience, an extra pair of Five Ten Blanco’s). Personally I wouldn’t do it. Maybe on Aliexpress.com is a little safer money wise. But climbing gear from China is a no go for me.

As Beardy Mike says Kouba is okay to order. Got their brass nuts work perfect. Cheap as well.

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tjin - on 09:10 Thu
In reply to beardy mike:

Yes, LACD is most likely getting there stuff from white label brands. But at least there is a European company that has the job of making sure the quality is up to spec.

There is nothing wrong with being manufactured in China. Many brands have it made there; from BD to WC. It's the QC that follows most care of. 

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Dan Arkle - on 09:10 Thu
In reply to Northernladlovesgravy:

I wouldn't even buy my 5G infrastructure from China. No way Huawei!

This is from somewhere that has had a fake eggs scandal recently. The mind boggles. 

Post edited at 09:12
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tingle - on 10:22 Thu
In reply to RR:

Even with the 10 euros delivery 48 euro for a set of 8 brass nuts is insane.

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Bobling - on 13:44 Thu
In reply to Dan Arkle:

Beat me to it!

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beardy mike - on 14:05 Thu
In reply to tjin:

Not even most likely - they are definitely open mould. I know from wandering around the stands at the shows - you just have to look at the consistency of the product and carabiners. You are right, there are good chinese manufacturers and bad ones - the better ones are from Taiwan, CIC for example. The reality is though that you do not know what quality procedure LACD have in place - when I approached them they knew very little about their own product and it is almost certain that the manufacturer in China is doing the quality control for them, not like BD, Petzl or WC who double up on that QC by doing it again once it gets to europe. After talking to them on their stand I really didn't get the impression of them being particularly clued up, rather they are just badging stuff and selling it. But hey, I hope I'm totally wrong. Not that anybody really knows who LACD are in the uk...

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tjin - on 15:24 Thu
In reply to beardy mike:

LACD is the importer, so they are responsible to make sure it's CE compliant. Obviously, I can't really check if they do there job. With most products; test batches are sent to an independent lab for certification (Hong Kong seems to the popular for mainland Chinese gear getting CE certifications). 

I trust a German importer a bit more than a random ebay/aliexpress/chinese website. 

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beardy mike - on 23:30 Thu
In reply to tjin:

So how exactly do they check that the items are compliant? Open mould items are usually sold to multiple companies with different logos lasered on. This way the CE marking is done by the supply company, they are responsible for all aspects of the design, material procurement, part manufacture, part assembly and quality control. This should include material testing, dimensional checks, visual finish checks, possibly but not always proofloading, often to around 50% or rated strength, and batch testing to destruction. Provided you control all aspects of this adequately you should see a high success rate of compliant assemblies. CE testing/rating occurs on a single very small sample batch of product sent to an external lab every time the product requires retesting which is periodic. In between these external test which may be years apart, or whenever the design or manufacture process is changed, the manufacturer applies the CE mark to its product and must provide a testing protocol to show compliance. QC and CE are unrelated in as much as the QC tests are conducted in house - CE is external. The batch tests which you are citing have nothing to do with CE, they are to do with the ongoing protocol adopted by each individual company, and they alone are responsible for that testing regime. Unless LACD (or any other manufacturer buying from a 3rd party) specifies precisely what they want, the minimum will be done - testing is expensive and time consuming - the less scrupulous chinese partners will not necessarily stick to what they say they are sticking to unless you are on them like rash. What’s more, unless you are doing your own testing you could receive batches of non compliant product which is visually exactly the same as compliant, and which the average punter would be very very hard pressed to spot. If you get a situation where someone at the chinese end innocently makes a minor change to manufacture or material process, thinking it will make no difference but in reality it makes a major difference, the blowback will be to the “face company” not the manufacturing partner. Sorry, but having had conversations with people at LACD stands, personally I would not have the confidence to categorically state that they know exactly what they are procuring, or that they have a back up QC system. You might have confidence, and you crack on, personally I won’t go near them. It might all be fantastic, just telling you my personal impression of the people I met...

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In reply to Northernladlovesgravy:

Are DMM Nuts really that expensive? Got a whole passive pack of wallnuts, offsets and hexes for about £125 the other day. You can find deals if you look. 

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jimtitt - on 07:00 Fri
In reply to beardy mike:

Except the manufacturer has to have an approved QC and QA system in place that is externally controlled by the notified body.

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tjin - on 08:35 Fri
In reply to beardy mike:

I only intended to suggest a better alternative for people with a tight budget. LACD nuts are CE approved (0194, so by INSPEC International Ltd. in the UK). If you want to doubt the CE system and whether LACD doing it's legally required job, that's up to you.

The Chinese 12 pack at the top from ebay/aliexpress, does not have a CE mark nor and notified body number (well not in the pictures). 

(as for trade show, salespersons and the actual engineers always seems to have different stories...)

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beardy mike - on 08:41 Fri
In reply to jimtitt:

Well, yes, there is that. They still need to maintain it in between these controls which I full well know doesn’t always happen...

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beardy mike - on 08:45 Fri
In reply to tjin:

Sure, I guess all I’m trying to point out is that there is a world of difference between a company buying from 3rd party manufacturers like Petzl who take their QC very seriously and buying off the shelf CE marked products, and branding it for your company. You simply don’t know which factory and what QC they have in place...

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beardy mike - on 10:15 Fri
In reply to tjin:

By the way, I'm not doubting the CE marking body or that LACD have best intentions - LACD could be doing everything right but if they are not doing inhouse checks stuff can slip past you quite easily. If it were up to me (but it's not) I'd have all "face" manufacturers making their own kit and taking responsibility for all the processes. Sure there would be less choice, but from a quality perspective I think we'd be better off...

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