Rope end of draw unclipping

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 farhi 02 Jul 2020

Hi, 

Probably numerous threads on this so sorry if this is duplicated somewhere.

This last week while out sport climbing, as me and my partner were cleaning routes, we both found a draw on the way down that seemed to have unclipped itself from the rope- we didn't see either one unclip itself, and can only guess it happened while we were climbing well beyond that bolt, or when we took at the top.   One was a super steep roof, and another was a vertical route.  My partner has been climbing for years and years and has said this has never happened before to him- so for it to happen twice on my kit is bit alarming.

The draws were not backclipped, and we were quite careful to ensure the biners were not hitting the rock surface (as much as it was possible for the vertical route).

I do not think it was the exact same quickdraw each time. 

Both routes were climbed using the same wildcountry wildwire draws.  I had updated the slings with wider petzl sport slings. 

We noticed that the slings tend to be very very slightly twisted, and sometimes don't sit perfectly straight, and this might have caused the problem? I have started to store my draws outside of my rucksack after each session to help prevent this twisting.

Has anyone had this happen using the wildwire carabiners, or have any ideas on what could have caused this? (Outside of the obvious point that contact with the rock could have pushed open the gate.  I also can't imagine it would be down to gate flutter as these are wiregates.)

Considering updating my rack as this has severely impacted my confidence in my kit, but don't really know if that will do anything.

Thanks in advanced for any [helpful] thoughts

-edited for spelling

Post edited at 12:15
 Iamgregp 02 Jul 2020
In reply to farhi:

I've never seen this happen, but of it's any comfort I wouldn't have thought it's really too much cause for alarm. 

I'd guess that this happened whilst the rope was under tension above the draw and moving around inside the biner whilst you were lowering and cleaning the route (i've see all sorts of weird things happen whilst cleaning) and these conditions wouldn't be present in a fall because the rope won't come under tension until the leading end is underneath the draw.

However the draws twisting like you've described sounds a massive pain in the arse and a constant source of annoyance so I'd switch them out just for convenience anyway, so maybe that'll give you more confidence in them...

3
 spenser 02 Jul 2020
In reply to farhi:

When I was gear secretary for my Uni mountaineering club I regularly noticed that Wild Wire krabs were having gates getting stuck open, there are a couple of reports on issues with Wild Wire krabs here:

https://thebmc.co.uk/technical-reports

If the gates weren't still open though I can't think what may have caused this.

1
 David Myatt 02 Jul 2020
In reply to farhi:

Just a thought...are you positive you clipped it in the first place?

OP farhi 02 Jul 2020
In reply to David Myatt:

Both were pretty memorable clips (the vert route was the crux clip and the roof route was so low that if you skipped one you'd probably deck out)

I did think as I cleaned my route that maybe I was much bolder than I gave myself credit for. But my partner reassured me that I had clipped it on my way up.

 Martin Haworth 02 Jul 2020
In reply to farhi:

I had this happen a few years ago on a trad route...got to the top and when I looked down my last runner wasn’t clipped. Initially I assumed I had just inadvertently not clipped it. When I got home I checked all my quickdraws as I do every so often and found one where the gate was stiff and when opened, stayed open. This was a wiregate. Last year I found a wiregate that stuck open when seconding on someone else’s gear. So could be worth regular checking, cleaning, WD40.

 Martin Haworth 02 Jul 2020
In reply to spenser:

As posted above, I had this happen. The fact that the gate wasn't still open doesn’t necessarily mean this wasn’t the cause. The gate can be open long enough for the rope to come out but still subsequently close if it gets knocked by the rope. It’s definitely a weakness of wire gates, albeit fairly rare.

 Luke90 02 Jul 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

> It’s definitely a weakness of wire gates, albeit fairly rare.

Surely this isn't specific to wire-gates. I've definitely seen solid-gates get sticky too.

OP farhi 03 Jul 2020
In reply to farhi:

Thanks everyone.  I had a good fiddle with my carabiners and some of them are slightly stiff, but don't stay open at all. I'll WD40 them on your advice.

Also realised I hadn't mentioned we were using a new rope on both routes.  It's a mammut infinity protect- although the rope is coiled for easier first use, it was very twisty.  Had to run it through a long sport route back and fourth about 6 times to improve it.  After looking at some very old archived posts this might have been the culprit too.   I had no idea that this could actually be dangerous, and is helpful for other people to aware of (particularly as we were using the new rope in preference to another that would need trimming after every fall, and thought it a safer choice!).

I did see some posts about people doubling up/opting for a screwgate on crucial clips when they had scares like this.  Helpful advice for getting confidence back up.  

OP farhi 03 Jul 2020
In reply to Iamgregp:

That is very very comforting that it shouldn't happen on the last piece of protection! 

 Mowglee 03 Jul 2020
In reply to farhi:

I used to have some Wild Country Wild Wires but got rid of all of them due to sticky gates. Even with occasional cleaning and WD40 it wouldn't be long before they started sticking again. Only had it with the WC ones, never on DMM or Black Diamond which were subject to the same usage. For this and a few other reasons I'll not buy any WC gear again. I guess it's because the holes where the wire goes through the karabiner body was made a touch too tight, or perhaps the spring tension in the wire not quite enough to overcome any increase in friction.

Post edited at 11:08
1
In reply to spenser:

Has to be pointed out that these are the old model of Wild Wire and that there has been no reports of this happening on the new model.

1
 Cobra_Head 03 Jul 2020
In reply to Euan McKendrick:

> Has to be pointed out that these are the old model of Wild Wire and that there has been no reports of this happening on the new model.


I've always used wild wire and never had this problem, but I can see it might be an issue with corrosion in the hole. I generally look after my gear and oil things that need oiling. I've had a few sticky cams that have suffered like this early on in my climbing so, after noticing this started taking more care of my gear.

 Ciro 03 Jul 2020
In reply to farhi:

Definitely good to keep your gates clean and lubricated.

Also, it's very rare but on a couple of occasions whilst belaying, I've watched my climber clip a draw at chest height or whatever, and then seen it unclipped after the climber has climbed past it. Were either of these in positions where the climber's footwork would have involved moves very close to the draw?

In reply to Cobra_Head:

Ye, I like them. and the new model.

Got myself a downvote though. Must be a DMM fan! 

1
 wbo2 03 Jul 2020
In reply to Euan McKendrick:

Who actually made those wire gates? 😉

In reply to wbo2:

Ha, well the original was made in Tideswell and I can't remember the year!

 wbo2 03 Jul 2020
In reply to Euan McKendrick: I was going to comment on mine, but mine are astros (and made in Wales I believe)

In reply to wbo2:

Do like the Astro! Not good for my fat mitts with gloves on in winter though!!

Andy Gamisou 03 Jul 2020
In reply to farhi:

> Both were pretty memorable clips (the vert route was the crux clip and the roof route was so low that if you skipped one you'd probably deck out)

Are you a squillion % sure?  I know that I have an occasional tendency on tricky clips to stick the qd on the bolt, then have a quick shake out before pulling the rope up to clip, then (because I've the memory of a goldfish with Alzheimer's) forgetting to actually do the clip. 

> I did think as I cleaned my route that maybe I was much bolder than I gave myself credit for. But my partner reassured me that I had clipped it on my way up.

They night be wrong.  My partner (wife) generally spots when I've done this (shouting up something caring like "clip the *ucking rope, dipsh*t"), but not always.

 jkarran 03 Jul 2020
In reply to farhi:

I'm aware of this happening to me twice over my climbing years, in both cases they were the ground fall clip on runout lines so stick in mind. I guess it could have been some sort of subconscious self sabotage or distraction and it may have happened other times unnoticed but I strongly suspect it's the rope. They were both about the same point in my career so likely on the same rope and I used very long floppy sling draws. 

My best guess is a tight curl forms in a twisted rope opening the gate as it passes. Shake any twists out next time you get the chance or drag it if you can find a big patch of clean grass. 

Jk

 knighty 03 Jul 2020
In reply to Mowglee:

> I used to have some Wild Country Wild Wires but got rid of all of them due to sticky gates. Even with occasional cleaning and WD40 it wouldn't be long before they started sticking again.

I'd suggest that might be because WD40 is rubbish for this situation. It isn't actually a lubricant, so doesn't help in the long term. Try using GT85 or any equivalent.

 brianjcooper 03 Jul 2020
In reply to Euan McKendrick:

> Ye, I like them. and the new model.

> Got myself a downvote though. Must be a DMM fan! 

Just don't go there!!!     I have DMM and WC equipment. Both excellent.  

 Iamgregp 03 Jul 2020
In reply to brianjcooper:

WC tube style belay devices are pretty horrible though.  Sticky as hell...

 brianjcooper 03 Jul 2020
In reply to Iamgregp:

> WC tube style belay devices are pretty horrible though.  Sticky as hell...

Maybe get yourself a BD ATC Guide.   

 Iamgregp 03 Jul 2020
In reply to brianjcooper:

Petzl Reverso is my jam for tube style...

 webding 04 Jul 2020
In reply to farhi:

I would imagine that it is just a one off and related to the kinky rope, but if not, I'd mark the crab that it happens to with tape or a rubber band to see if it keeps happening to the same one.

I'd also set a camera up and film the ascent and see if you can figure out what is happening.

 OllyD 04 Jul 2020
In reply to Mowglee:

WD40 isn't actually a lubricant - it stands for water dispersal formula 40. It's really for cleaning - which is why it gets things unstuck temporarily - but generally evaporates pretty quickly - which is why it doesn't last. Best follow up with a drop of 3 in one drip oil or similar - that should last better. 

OP farhi 04 Jul 2020
In reply to webding:

Thanks! Really helpful advice

OP farhi 04 Jul 2020
In reply to Ciro:

Potentially.. I probably did stand close to the draw on my route. But the next clip is at a rest and at this point still visible by my belayer and he said it was still insitu after the resting clip. Definitely helpful to remember about feet accidentally knocking the draw, thanks!

OP farhi 04 Jul 2020
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

Yeah definitely were clipped! But you’re right in a red point or just when you’re concentrating it could be quite easy to move past them! 
 

hope you haven’t done that on ground fall clips! Haha


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