UKH

Looking for some advice from the UKC hive mind...

Before Xmas I ordered online a pair of LS Otaki's in what looked like a pretty good deal with a UK retailer, I've never had a pair before but get on well with the Skwarma's and wanted an edging shoe.... same last, figured will be a similar fit, so ordered same Skwarma size I always get (38).

They arrived, I tried them on at home and they felt ok, binned the box and thought nothing of it.

About a week later it stopped raining finally, went to the crag, did one route in them and was chatting about them with a mate, who pointed out that they were a different size to my skwarmas (also had a crag). Initially thought I must have screwed up in ordering the wrong size but after checking the original email order confirmation turns out I did order the right size but was sent the wrong size.

I've contacted the shops customer service to send them back, but because I don't have the original box they've said I can't send them back via post, but may be able to return them to a store by hand but it will be at the store managers choice if they accept them.... nearest store about 1hrs drive away.

So, do I have any incorrectly sized legs to stand on if I want to absolutely get a full refund or is my best bet to try the nearest store and use my best pleading face and hope for the best? 

Cheers, Luke

Not sure I’m following this correctly. Do the shoes fit you or not? Unfortunately most if not all shops will insist that goods purchased through distance selling must be returned in all packaging and tags attached, unless the product is faulty. If the closest shop is only an hour away I would give them a phone but since you’ve already used them I doubt they’ll take them back.

Apologies if not it's not clear, hope this helps.

Im a size 38, I ordered a 38, they sent a 39, I didn't notice until after throwing the box away and using on a route. I'll definitely give them a call.

Cheers, Luke 

Considering they're used you don't have the right to return them anymore because the shop can no longer resell them. They also wouldn't be able to anyway because you've disposed of the packaging.

However you did receive the incorrect size but sounds like they're still wearable (and probably a nice comfy pair for trad/multis etc) so my recommendation in this situation would be to ask for a partial refund to compensate for their mistake. You'll be looking at around 15-20% depending on whether the shoes were already discounted. 

Personally I'd be tempted to give them a wipe clean, head along to a shop even if it is a drive, smile nicely and don't mention that they may have enjoyed a brief amount of rock contact. However if there is any marking on the sole this isn't an option.

I'm not a lawyer, but surely if you ordered a pair of size 38 shoes, and they haven't yet sent you a pair of size 38 shoes, the sale hasn't been completed.

They should therefore complete the sale by sending you the item you ordered, or refund you if that is not possible.

They sent you something else, and you'll have a duty of care for that item until such time as they have arranged to collect it from you, but I doubt a judge would rule that duty of care extended to not throwing out the packaging or trying out the item before you noticed it wasn't your order?

I still don’t follow this? You ordered a pair of shoes, failed to check that you received the correct item, tried them on, they obviously fit or you would’ve noticed straight away, threw out the box and removed any tags as again you were obviously happy, used them on a route still without noticing incorrect sizing or experiencing any problems due to incorrect sizing and it’s only when your friend noticed that the sizing wasn’t what you ordered(which seems strange in its own right), you now decide that your not happy and want a full refund 🤷‍♂️,

If they fit okay, then you're in great shape: use them and be done with it.

If you persist with the path you're taking you'll presumably eventually end up with a pair of the 'right' size which don't fit - all at considerable expense (of both time and money) to everybody involved.

Generally: there is no reason to think that size 'n' of any particular shoe of any model will fit the same as size 'n' of a different model.

Probably not the advice you were hoping for - in which case, sorry.

Cheat, in other words? Bollocks to that.

If the sole is unmarked then the shoe is as new and can be resold without issue. This will always be at the discretion of the retailer - so no, not 'cheating'. 

So you’re basically mugging off the next customer who buys the shoe then?

When you received the shoes you could have had them collected at the cost of the retailer, you would not have had to "return" them, obviously you may have taken to the post office, but I "think" you could even have insisted they send you packing and a pre paid label.

BUT

Now you have thrown away the box, I "think" you have accepted the goods, and also now that you no longer have the box you have no way of proving that the shoes you want to return are the ones that they sent you, they could be some that your mate down the climbing wall wished to return.

I am in no way implying you are dishonest or would be , but as a post in this thread shows the customer can act not quite as they should.

I think a judge in a small clams court would consider it reasonable for the retailer to expect you to check the size and fit of the item before disposing of the packaging.

The retailer may very well not be able to replace that box/original packing, would you buy gods without original packing.

If it was me, I would sell them on here or on Facebook for 75% of what you paid, and learn the lesson of always checking goods when received.

I'm doing nothing because it's not my shoes. But seeing as you apparently need a reality check as to how online retail works, people order and return climbing shoes constantly. All of these shoes will have been tried on, walked around the house, stood on the edge of the steps, ummed, ahhed, "Ooh I dunno Janet, they're a bit tight, mebbe should've got the next size up", tried on some more, stared at for half an hour etc etc etc. In a physical shop this goes even further with multiple pairs of shoes being tried on, used on a little wall that the shop has in a corner etc etc. This could have happened with five different customers before OP even received his shoes and as long as he returns them in an as new condition then there is no issue here whatsoever in them being resold. Nobody is being 'mugged off' because they're still buying a shoe that is as new as it can be expected to be. To expect more is peak consumerist 'better than thou' nonsense and I want no part in it. 

From the Citizen's Advice website:

"Most sellers give instructions on how to return items, and often include returns labels with your order. You usually have 14 days to return the item after telling the seller - check your terms and conditions for how long you have.

You may have to pay the cost of posting something back to the seller. The seller should have told you who has to pay for this when you bought the item. For example, it could have been in the terms and conditions. If they didn’t tell you, they will have to refund your postage costs.

You don't have to return the item in its original packaging, but you do need to make sure it’s packaged in a way that means it doesn’t get damaged. Sellers can ask you to pay if something gets damaged because it wasn’t packaged properly. The seller can also ask you to pay (or reduce your refund) if you’ve reduced the value of the item, eg if you wore shoes outside and scuffed the soles - but they can only do this if it’s in the terms and conditions.

If your contract says you must use the original packaging, this is likely to be considered an ‘unfair contract term’. You can tell the seller this and see if they’ll agree to accept the return without the original packaging."

I'd take it to the nearest store and speak nicely to them pleading your case. All of the above does conveniently ignore the fact you've actually used them outdoors, rather than simply returning them unused, in which case you might have less chance of success. I have to say also that it's strange your mate noticed the shoes were a size bigger than you usually wear, I never look inside my mates' shoes to see what size they are!

They might be more willing to swap them for the correct size rather than refund them - at least they'll still have a box to sell your ones in then.

I sometimes work in a shop with a little wall in the corner. Half a dozen different holds.

Customers are welcome to try shoes on this wall and spend as long as they like trying and comparing shoes on in the shop.

They are also welcome to take them home and try them on again to make sure.

But once they have used them for climbing, either outside or even at a wall then we won't swap them. The shoes by this point are not new, there will be scuffs on the edges and it would be wrong to pass them off as such.

Perhaps not ideal but that is how it is.

Thanks all for the replies, the difference of opinions exactly reflects my own thoughts in that there are a number of options and I wasn't sure which was the correct ethical/financial/legal position, hence asking for advice!

To clarify on some questions....

Yes I should have checked when I received the item, that's definitely my fault. 

When I tried them on at home, this was simply to check if my feet could "fit" into the shoe shape.  For example, I've previously ordered LS katana laces online in the correct length size but they've been too narrow when tried on at home, so returned. I was specifically looking for a good edging shoe, primarily for sport, to complement the softer skwama's that I've had numerous pairs. The mistake I made here is they actually fitted fine straight out of the box (and on the first route), when really they should have been more uncomfortable if they were the correct size... typically shoes take a 3/5 sessions to wear in, and as Im looking for a shoe that edges well beyond the 3/5 sessions, these shoes will end up being too big and therefore poor at edging. So basically I fell into the heuristic trap of "these shoes fit my feet, great, lets go climbing in them!"

I completely acknowledge that every shoe is different but I had a pretty good reason to think the otaki's would be a good bet given I get on so well with the skwamas: https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/footwear/rock_shoes/la_sportiva_otaki_and_s...

For the friend noticing rather than me, this is what happened so sorry if this hard to believe. I had a set of skwamas and the new otakis with me at the crag, inevitable gear chat ensued, they commented the otakis looked bigger. 

If I’m buying shoes from a retailer and not eBay I want my shoes to be brand new and not in ‘as new’ condition otherwise I would be buying them off eBay or here for a good reduction in price. 

I would have thought, regardless of you using them. If you can confirm that the size that they sent you, was not the size that you ordered, they would not be fit for purpose due to an error on the sellers part. That wouldn’t be reasonable if you had worn them half a dozen times, but basically you have worn them once and notice their error.