nut for the future

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pietro carra 23 Sep 2020

hello, here's a nut i created to keep it from coming out of the crack's... push=rigid, pull=like a pivot... what do you think?

youtube.com/watch?v=AbS2dTuIa0o&

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 john arran 23 Sep 2020
In reply to pietro carra:

Great idea! I can see it being quite a bit harder to remove in some cases, but reducing liftout looks like a real winner.

 MischaHY 23 Sep 2020
In reply to pietro carra:

That is very cool. Would be great to see you bring it to market! 

 Derek Furze 23 Sep 2020
In reply to pietro carra:

That looks like a great solution to a common problem.  Hopefully, the engineering isn't to difficult or expensive, because if the price point is close to 'ordinary' nuts, then they would be great for a second set.  Well done!

In reply to pietro carra:

Brilliant ! Can I pay you for a set ?

 GrahamD 23 Sep 2020
In reply to pietro carra:

Interesting.  How do you stop it pivoting when you are using the wire to place the nut (smaller sizes, or placing a bit deeper in the crack) ?

 PaulJepson 23 Sep 2020
In reply to pietro carra:

Doesn't 60cm sling draw do the same thing?

3
 Suncream 23 Sep 2020
In reply to PaulJepson:

There are definitely instances when the extra 50cm over a short draw makes a difference for hitting the ground, but there's still a chance the nut would lift out. This seems like an ingenious, if imperfect, solution that that problem.

It also seems like this would make nuts less likely to zipper out when falling on gear higher up?

 tehmarks 23 Sep 2020
In reply to pietro carra:

Love it. It's such a simple and elegant solution to a real problem that I'm surprised it hasn't been done before.

1
 nikoid 23 Sep 2020
In reply to pietro carra:

Have you tested one to destruction yet? Are you expecting them to be as strong as a normal nut of equivalent size?

 Rob Grant 23 Sep 2020
In reply to PaulJepson:

Somewhat.  You can still accidentally kick out a nut on a long sling, or get the sling wrapped round your leg and pull the nut out.  This design looks like it would help mitigate that possibility. 

> Doesn't 60cm sling draw do the same thing?

Bilbo Baggins 23 Sep 2020
In reply to pietro carra:

I'm not saying your invention does not have merit but you might want to consider re-filming the demo. With the first placement you essentially just lightly placed the nut in the crack, with the second one you gave a little tug that seated it so not really an effective and fair comparison.

Joe

Post edited at 19:27
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 Phil Lyon 23 Sep 2020
In reply to Bilbo Baggins:

The way in which the quickdraw was wiggled by the near crab first time also accentuated the effect. The second clip was wiggled by the far crab, which may only show why a long quickdraw is effective anyway.

If it's worth it's salt (and it does look good), put them through identical scenarios and it will shine through hopefully.

In reply to pietro carra:

If they can be 'locked' in their rigid mode so it takes a proper seating tug to free the cable (rather than unlocking at inopportune moments) then this is genius. I also wonder how the filler material can be strong enough to withstand deformation and hold the fall, yet be light enough to not double the weight of the nut. 

pietro carra 23 Sep 2020
In reply to pietro carra:

thank you all for the interest. every suggestion and question is useful, don't stop post it. now the work is in fieri... soon more information. p.c.

 maxsmith 23 Sep 2020
In reply to pietro carra:

Really intrigued by this, but presumably it only works on one axis (when the nut is placed in the standard orientation)?

In reply to maxsmith:

True. When turned 90 degrees It will work as a normal nut.

And a solution with a gimbal would probably be weaker.

Post edited at 06:08
 lithos 24 Sep 2020

I've thought of something similar (but not done anything about it as im not an engineer) for the WC large nuts (12,13,14, red, yellow, blue) as it would allow all 3 dimensions to be used and provide for a larger range of placements, especially on the blue.

worth pursuing i'd say for larger nuts (9+)

 henwardian 24 Sep 2020
In reply to pietro carra:

Lots of good points in the thread. My primary worries would be:

1) I place nuts almost always using the wire and the floppy head would make this harder. To place using the head you would need to be in the larger sizes or your fingers most likely will not get in the placement... but not so large as to hex-sized because then why wouldn't you just use a hex on dyneema? So maybe the range of useful sizes would be limited.

2) Worried about how your breaking strength might be affected for smaller sizes.

3) Thinking this is just too specialised to have wide appeal. You are essentially appealing to 2 types of buyer:

a) The person who impulsively buys cool new bits of gear (or gets bought them for a present). And here you are competing with an endless deluge of innovation for innovation's sake that come out of the large manufacturers these days.

b) The person who really needs that functionality in their piece of gear AND really wants an absolute minimum of extension so dislikes quickdraws. And this is an incredibly small group of people.

4) The cost of certifying your gear and bringing it to market is _high_. If you plan to go this route, make sure you have done a business plan with realistic numbers to make sure you have a reasonable chance of making it work.

Overall I'm afraid to say that it looks a bit like a gimmick - I'm sure you could sell a few but I don't think it's as many as you might think. Consider something like ballnuts - they are a genuine solution to places where _nothing_ else would work and they still only get onto the rack for maybe 1% of trad climbers (and that's a subset of maybe 1% of all climbers). If what you are trying to do is compete directly with the big-boys of the market and try to get new entrants to the sport to buy these instead of normal nuts, I think you are going to seriously struggle to make that work.

However I do have an encouraging think to say too!

Why not look at selling your patent? (I'm assuming you have one already because if not I'd take that video down right now and get one sorted!). At this stage you have some intellectual property that players in the market might well be interested in buying and they have the expertise, machinery and capital to develop it and bring it to the market. If it was worthwhile bringing out size 8 cams, it seems likely this should be worthwhile too.

 Dan Arkle 24 Sep 2020
In reply to pietro carra:

If anyone currently needs a solution like this, then you can just thread a short sling around the nut to achieve the same effect. 

 timparkin 24 Sep 2020
In reply to Dan Arkle:

> If anyone currently needs a solution like this, then you can just thread a short sling around the nut to achieve the same effect. 

I was wondering whether this is similar to having a sling as well as a wire on a nut. Place the nut the wire as normal (although it only needs to be a single wire, which might have advantages) and then clip the sling. Tie a knot in the sling if you want a really short attachment. If the sling were attached to the top of the nut, it might even help with removing it.

Looping the sling over the nut would be nearly the same though. Might be a little more fiddly to place above your head one handed. 

 Phil Lyon 24 Sep 2020
In reply to timparkin:

putting a tiny sling over a nut is kind of what a quickdraw is.

 PaulJepson 24 Sep 2020
In reply to Phil Lyon:

Nuts used to come on cord; if it was a better solution to wire then they still would.

It's a smart idea but the benefits do not outweigh the cons. 

 timparkin 24 Sep 2020
In reply to Dan Arkle:

I found this as well... 

http://downbeatclimbgear.com/shellnut/

 timparkin 24 Sep 2020
In reply to Phil Lyon:

> putting a tiny sling over a nut is kind of what a quickdraw is.

Apart from the nut is still 'torqued' by the wire even with a quickdraw on and the extension even with a quickdraw is largish. With a sling (possibly <60cm) over a nut you get no torquing, only a side pull possibly and can get the carabiner quite high (if needed). 

 Marek 24 Sep 2020
In reply to timparkin:

One other possible thing to consider is that although the wire torquing an asymmetric nut placement may be considered bad, in some cases it might actually be good: Imagine an un-flared (in-out) crack with the nut seated in an vertical indentation. Give it an outward pull at 90 degrees to the rock face. With no torquing (e.g., this new design) there's little to stop the nut sliding out of the placement except how tightly it's seated - i.e., not much. With a normal wired nut, an outward pull will tend to torque the nut in it's placement a bit and it's less likely to pop out. Perhaps not a devastating argument, but it is an example of how it's difficult to say that nut design A is better than nut design B in the real world where mitigating one of a plethora of interconnected risks often increases another one.

Post edited at 16:21
pietro carra 24 Sep 2020
In reply to pietro carra:

thanks for suggestion... actually i need a good translater... i must study english... by the way, have you seen this? it' s a friend thinked not to use quickdraws... a little bit strange, but it works well!

youtube.com/watch?v=ePTujhiQVbs&

 PaulJepson 24 Sep 2020
In reply to pietro carra:

What if you place it and then decide it's no good and you want to un-place it? And for the second to clean? Nightmare!

Bilbo Baggins 25 Sep 2020
In reply to pietro carra:

I'm new to all this social media stuff and to be honest a little bit wary.  I see that I got several likes for my comments but also a dislike.  Can someone please explain to me the logic. I wasn't dismissive, indeed I thought I was being constructive so I'm really baffled why someone should dislike what I said. I've only just started posting.  Should I stop? Should I ignore? Is the forum full of disrespectful, nasty characters?  I've always found climbers to be a very tolerant lot.

Joe

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 Rick Graham 25 Sep 2020
In reply to Bilbo Baggins:

> I'm new to all this social ............ Is the forum full of disrespectful, nasty characters?  I've always found climbers to be a very tolerant lot.

At least 99.9% nice tolerant folk.

Short crisp posts can often be misunderstood so it pays to reread before hitting "post message".

Some really useful information on UKC , just accept the abuse and dross as part of the deal.

 henwardian 28 Sep 2020
In reply to Bilbo Baggins:

You can turn off the like/dislike buttons in user settings - I highly recommend it. Basically on UKC you either do that or accept that you will get dislikes, quite probably for no real reason. If you start worrying about why someone disliked, it just never ends as you don't know if it was genuine or for a dumb reason or them disliking your username or someone's cat lay down on their phone...

Also, in the online world people are, on average, easier to offend and more offensive compared to in real life.

Finally, your interactions in real life are probably with climber climbers, not armchair climbers

 PaulJepson 28 Sep 2020
In reply to Bilbo Baggins:

If you ask why you got dislikes, you will get more dislikes. Don't read too much into it. 

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