UKH

Hi all...  

A little while ago my daughter and I visited the peaks , we had our mountaineering coats on  ( north ridge from go out doors) they were not cheap at £150+  tho this was some years ago ..  anyway after being out in the rain for 3 or so hours we were wet through .. I had to drive bk home in my onesie ..   

I spoke to go out doors , they recommended to re-water proof the coat , so we did this .. 

Now we are planning to head up to Scotland in the new year I wondered if our coats were up to it ..  

so I did a little experiment , got dressed, donned the mountaineering coat, then got in the shower for 5 min ..   I came out and had wet shoulders , chest where the zipper is , wet cuffs , and a bit on my back ..  

I did wonder if that amount of water for 5 min was asking too much ..  So I then dried off , fresh t shirt on and did another 5 min in my sailing coat , which is made by Gill ....   

Well I came out the second time , and although the coat looked very wet outside , I was totally dry , even my cuffs were dry , nothing around my neck or zipper, I was very impressed ........   

So either my sailing coat is better than mountaineering coats , or my mountaineering coat has had its day ..    ???  

which now brings me to ask what coat should I look at , to get that same type of performance, because at the mo the sailing coat will be heading to scotland .. lol ...   ???   

Is your sailing coat breathable?

I got this from Gill ...   seems like it is breathable 

2-layer laminated fabric, creating an incredibly waterproof, windproof and breathable protective shell.
Fully taped seams for a waterproof seal.
Laminated moisture-management fabric technology with a durable water repellent outer finish.
Advanced composite waterproof fabric featuring a combination of Hydrophobic and Hydrophilic technologies that efficiently transport moisture away from the skin whilst keeping the wearer 100% protected from the elements.

I have sailed probably 1000's of miles in my sailing coat ...     and hasn't let me down, never had to re- waterproof it or anything ... 

prob the second time my mountaineering coat gets wet with the rain in the peaks , I get totally soaked lol...   

How do the weights of the two coats compare?

the mountaineering coat is much lighter , and is also cut differently ...   

I suspected so. You are bound to trade off weight for performance.

What's the weight and cost of the sailing coat?

That begs the question.
If most of us use waterproof jackets in a situation where weight and subsequently volume isn't really that vital, then perhaps, the sailing type approach is actually better?

im not sure the weight on either of the coats , but the sailing coat is heavier for sure ..   

the sailing coat coast around £141  and the mountaineering coat was £240 tho I think i got a bit off in a sale think I paid about £120 ..  

both are expensive coats ..   

but not stupid heavy , talking small differences..  

Yes, the clothing companies have managed to create a market where weight seems to trump almost everything else when the grams saved actually make almost no difference to most of the activities of most people. I don't know about the cut of sailing coats, but I suspect a lot of people would get better function and better value for money from something heavier.

Sadly £240 isn't much if it is a real winter hardshell, I presume if it's Go Outdoors's own brand it's using some non-branded material rather than Goretex or similar? It's hard to know what you're getting when its not really clear what the material is. Could be brilliant value, could be not very good.

This thread confirms what I've thought for years now, 'Technical' (hahahaha) climbing/mountaineering clothing is one of the biggest cons going.

For your average punter, there are loads of better and cheaper alternatives.

There's a saying about having work done for you - you can have good, quick or cheap, and you can pick any two.  I reckon with outdoor clothing, you can have waterproof, breathable, lightweight, cheap or tough, and you get to pick about three-and-a-half.

Of these, the real fight is between waterproof and breathable.  It's not hard to make a coat totally waterproof (bin bags achieve that, and so do very cheap plastic-y coats) but as they are not at all breathable.  Equally, light and tough are really hard to get simultaneously.

Both your coats are relatively cheap, and I suspect that the mountaineering jacket has put most of the rest of its points into light and breathable, and the sailing jacket has gone for waterproof and tough.  It would be interesting to try doing a long hard walk in the sailing jacket and seeing what happened; I'd rather suspect you'll come back soaked - but in sweat. Mind you, if you're not going to be working terribly hard, and not sweating that much, then yes, the sailing jacket is almost certainly the better choice for a properly wet day.

my mountain coat is gore-tex, well thats what the label said  

I know that its not a huge amount of money for a hard shell coat , but  ..  when compared to my sailing coat which I have to say is put under harsh conditions, probably more so than my mountain coat , coming in to regular contact with salt water spray, rain and plenty of wind  ...  ( obviously not all trips , but regular salt water spray tho ) and totally out performed the mountain coat by night and day difference  , never had to treat it with anything , it just worked .....  

It really does make me wonder about what we as climbers , mountaineers are being sold and for how much we have to pay to get stuff which actually works as it should .. 

 thinking about its probably more to do with greed and commercial hype which we are subjected to , and a greater element of fashion within the climbing industry , how many people buy a "top of the range" north face jacket , from the high street store, but never even get close to a mountain, at most worn to walk the dog ...   compare that to the sailing community .. lol...  because nobody, who doesn't sail is ever going to pop in the local sailing shop ( normally out the way ) and buy a bright red or yellow coat , which many people have never heard of ....    

A link to this fabulous jacket would be nice, please!

I don't think North Ridge make jackets out of Gore-tex do they? Gore tend to be quite picky about who they license the material too. Looking on the Go Outdoor website the North Ridge stuff all looks at the cheap end of the market and I'm not sure if any of what I can see would count as a "mountaineering jacket" - i.e. wired hood, probably pit zips, tough face fabrics and a membrane that's either Gore or something roughly equivalent.

You can spend stupid money on winter hardshells and still their performance can be disappointing, but I know that ocean going sailing gear isn't cheap either. One of my mates is a big sailor and has sailed a lot in the Arctic, as well as to the Antarctic, he went from West Greenland over to Labrador (where polar bears meant they couldn't land much!!!) and down to Newfoundland this summer, and I notice from photos he mainly wears his outdoor gear for everything except the outer layers when sailing, but I've also picked up his ocean sailing jacket and it must be 4 times the weight of your average winter climbing hardshell! They are impressive bits of clothing but designed to do different things to a climbing shell.

A good sailing jacket is often quite spendy, and most of the time it will keep majority of the elements out (wind, rain). The sailing jackets are often quite heavy/robust due to their nature and requirements... and they also aim to keep you warm (as bar short match races, you are not really that active constantly).

Mountaineering jackets are also meant to keep you dry and the elements out (add snow to the mix), but not at the expense of weight. The jacket are also meant to be move forgiving on mobility when you're active.


So short reply is that for a stationary waterproof test... the proper sailing jacket will prolly always triumph.

But if you add moving to the mix, a good (retail 300-400 quid) mountaineering jacket will prolly keep you drier.

I bought 2nd hand an older one of these for offshore sailing (£700 new!)
https://www.musto.com/en_GB/hpx-gore-tex-ocean-jacket/SH1651.html

It is almost entirely waterproof, designed for days on end of primarily sitting on the rail of a racing boat, interspersed with brief moments of extreme exertion (my older jacket was once a bit soggy in the wrists after 3 days of upwind sailing).

The design criterion are water/wind proof, (sealed neck, waist and wrists etc) and breathable. They are as breathable as anything I've worn, and in the soggy environment this is critical for staying warm, as you are stationary on the rail for up to 6 hours at a time, through the night etc.

However, these jackets are super heavy. They have no consideration for bulk and weight as that is not a factor, so I think like for like you are going to struggle to use one for mountaineering/climbing. Maybe resort skiing

Selling crap for high prices is not a long-term business model. Most of the names, North face, Rab, Arcteryx, ME have been around for decades. I've been pretty happy with the waterproofing of most of my high end jackets, and I've had scores of them, which perhaps points to issues with durability. You might have had poor fortune with this one. Or, equally possible, you succumbed to a fake "bargain" from a discounter.* We've all done it.

* In Go Outdoors defence, my most bombproof jacket ever is a neoshell special by Rab for Go Outdoors that I bought for £99 list price.

I also do a lot of sailing and my comments would be:

1) Sailing stuff does'nt need to be as breathable and needs to be less susceptiple to rips etc, I've had to reproof some of my Musto stuff.

2)I've got a Jack Wolskin texapore infity jacket I use for running, cycling etc and I've been out for a 3 hour bike ride in driving rain etc and its kept me dry although not all the perspiration has breathed out but I'm no worse than if I was cycling in the dry without it.

3)I would'nt use my sailing dtuff for cycling or climbing or even walking.

4) I would use my Jack Wolfskin for sailing but I'd be careful about rips etc (from the ends of split pins etc..)

In my hayday of sailing (20 odd years ago, just when H&L, Gill and Musto were bringing out Gtx ranges), my friends tried to use a mountaineering Gtx for sailing... let's just say that it did keep 'em dry... but they had to be careful not to wore through it... but they still ended up getting proper sailing stuff, since they got darn cold in said stuff (TNF, I recall).

Me, was too skint (and young) to buy Gtx stuff, so still have buried deep in my closet a Musto Offshore -jacket & troos (think late 90's vintage). They were a bit sweaty at times, but the active airflow kept me reasonably dry (and more importantly warm) even during the harshest of conditions... think of 20 m/s winds, and snow/sleet plus -5 C temps... good times (not).

Or that you are a gear connoisseur and choose to dispose of your disposable income that way! (I say this knowing that I stand accused exactly of the same "offence"! I've just purchased a new rucksack for cycle commuting which is incredibly like my current, jolly good rucksack for cycle commuting, just a little bit smaller. But in the probably 7,000 kms I've cycle commuted with my current pack on my back, it actually gives you A LOT of time to think "I wish this pack was a bit smaller"!)

I'm a bit amused by the term 'mountaineering coat' (rather than jacket) - I've never heard them called that before, but maybe I'm behind the times. (But I don't think they ever called them that, even in Victorian times.)

Whose coat is that jacket.

I once got thoroughly wet from wearing a walking jacket on a ridge walk where the rain was raining upwards as well as sideways, and remember thinking “if only I had my sailing gear on - that is really well designed to resist a soaking that comes from below”. But I imagine a well fitting mountaineering jacket would have been better still overall.

I meant/implied 'mountaineering jacket', though I think we say 'mountain jacket' more often, don't we? Of course, in 'the old days' (before mid to late '70s) we had anoraks ...

https://www.gillmarine.com/gb/mens/sailing-jackets/os2-offshore-mens-jacket...

that the new one got mine a bit cheaper .. 

I know that the sailing coat is heavier , but I would say they are far from super heavy , least the one I have worn in recent times ..  

They used to make them with gortex I know they did because I have one , they dont anymore , the coat in question isnt new , but had minimal use ..  

Because its so amusing to use the term 'coat' over that of a 'jacket' , was you around in victorian times ??  , I prefer to use the term 'Bell-end' over that of 'Cock'

I remember the term 'jacket' only applying to coats that went down to your waist. Longer coats were parkas, cagouls, or just coats.

well my mountaineering outer shell is actually a little longer than my waist but isnt long enough to signify being called a parker or a cagoule, and is slightly longer than that of a jacket ? ..   so what actually is it ??   

Why be pedantic ? 

I wasn't aware that I was being pedantic. Simply pointing out that the term 'jacket' used to have a specific meaning that seems no longer to be the case. Sorry if that caused you any offence.

My current musto Pro sailing coat is remarkably similar to my old (mid 90s) tnf mountain coat with regard to features like zip storm flaps etc.

I really don't need lightweight light duty water resistant (for a week or 2) zips etc. I want something that works long term. The disposable fashion trend doest just apply to cheap tat

I hate to be pedantic but are you absolutely sure its Gore Tex? Having actually worked in Go Outdoors (nobody laugh) I know they dont have the license for Gore Tex for North Ridge and £240 is fairly cheap for Gore. Guessing its 2 layer?

Don't worry, we love you for it. It seemed odd to me too, although I can't say I've ever looked that seriously at North Ridge stuff, and AndyE9 seems so certain about it, but I even had a google and could fine no reference to North Ridge goretex products.

   ...  im pretty sure that it was sold to me as gore tex, and I never questioned it , I have looked and there is nothing in it which mentions gore tex , ..  if you guys are sure they never made one then maybe I am wrong  , then if thats the case it would explain things a little ..  

i have now re done the water proofing , im not sure how good its going to be , but really didnt want to spend out on a new coat/jacket/parker/cagoule/smock /outer shel / hard shell/ tunic/ mac/ kaross/overall/... right on top of Christmas , hopefully it will hold out for some winter climbing coming up .. 

Or should I buy something  else , if so whats recommended ...   

Some of the North Ridge stuff is actually pretty decent, but from what I've seen the jackets of this brand don't fall into this category. To me the designs have not looked good, and I've never seen Gore-tex used in their construction. Probably, the Go salesman made some comment about the jacket you bought being "as good as Gore-tex" or "just like Gore-tex", saying "Gore-tex" very loudly and mumbling the rest of the sentence.

For winter climbing, buy a Paramo jacket off the company's seconds shop on ebay.

And, sad to say, people spend 300 quid + (and it can be a lot +! Top of the range hardshells are now 500 - 600 quid!) on Goretex jackets and still find they are really disappointing. I'm reviewing some winter hardshells currently for UKC - I've got the TNF top model (RRP 550!) with their "ground breaking" new "nano-spun" material, and using it on a good tough, cold and often damp Lake district hill walk a few weeks back found it completely underwhelming in terms of performance. I'm hoping in sub zero temps I will be more impressed!

Nevertheless I don't think it's all a con - I just think it genuinely very hard physics/chemistry to make a material that can consistently keep water out, whilst letting sweat from the inside go to the outside. Yes, some brands charge a premium because they're seen a cool, or seen as more specialist etc. but often that's because they do make proper specialist gear - things like the hood, zips etc etc on that TNF jacket are excellent - it's very much designed for doing hard climbing in.

I always wear a cagoule (or cag for short).

Is "coat" the N. England/Yorkshire term - my longstanding mountaineering partner from Sheffield always referrred to his cagoule as his coat.

Because one is a pen and the other an item of clothing.

Why not try your sailing coat as a mountain coat ? Seriously, it's an interesting test.  I did that experiment once .

I think it definitely depends what you want the coat to do? If we're talking Scottish winter climbing then I, personally, would wear Gore Pro just for the durability. Winter hill walking I'd probably just go for Gore Active or the own brand equivalent. Every quality company now has it's own membrane and they boast some impressive figures. Working in the industry I do have the slight luxury of owning a fair few and can attest to their excellence! Nice and light and get some decent layers underneath!

The coat / jacket in question ..

 https://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff96/aevans692/IMG_6924.jpg

Looks a nice jacket and still in good nick - you sure it was water getting in not sweat not getting out that got you wet?

If water gets through the fabric in the shower, it sounds like the membrane is no longer waterproofing. "reproofing" which is just trying to make the outer fabric repel water might make it a little better but will not actually make the membrane waterproof again. I would look for heavily discounted Goretex Pro right now, as if that lets water in, you will get it replaced. Sports pursuit have bargains now and again, Magic Mountain for Mountain Equipment gear, etc

Yeah I know , i have hardly worn it , I wore it once in wales when it rained, a few years or so ago , then when we last went to the peaks ...   

This is why its so annoying as when I bought them (we bought 3 , mine, daughters and the wife got a slightly diff one but same line )  they looked good  .. 

BTW before you risk the wrath of the UKC massive (in fact I'm surprised Grumpy Gordon above didn't already pick you up on this. It's the Peak, not the Peaks. There are no peaks here. Well accept Mam Tor. And Win Hill. ...And Chrome Hill. There aren't many peaks here.

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/off_belay/how_did_the_peak_district_get_i...

If it is Goretex it will be badged as such on the jacket somewhere (it is, or at least used to be) a stipulation for a licence to use Gore fabric.

Regarding your earlier post re the shower test: if five minutes leaves you getting wet it's not breathability or wetting out that is the problem, it is the waterproofing itself that has gone.(I recently bought a second hand cycling waterproof that wetted out in seconds in a shower test but still didn't cause the t shirt I was wearing to get damp). I'd be tempted to have a chat with Go Outdoors regarding the guarantee or fitness of purpose of the jacket after minimal wear despite the age.

Really ....    first someone makes a comment about me calling it a coat , and now as I refer to the peak district  as the peaks as there is no peaks there wtf ...  ....  

it is laughable , some of you guys need to get out more, i'm surprised that the punctuation police haven't made an appearance yet ....

More need for the spelling police........

Andy, you are Captain Literal aren't you? Although I guess that could be Captain Littoral what with your sailing interests...

I spent 2 ski seasons on the mountain in a sailing jacket, the internal gaiters on waist and cuffs were great at keeping snow out and having a high collar that seals tight was brilliant on bad weather days.  The material is durable and even after weeks of use, it remained waterproof.  Breathability was at least reasonable, although I wouldn't claim to have pushed it particularly hard.

Despite it being very good in that particular niche, I've never taken it on a proper mountaineering day.  It's heavy, bulky and fairly restrictive.  While I agree with the points above about mountaineering gear having gone too far in pursuit of lightweight at the cost of durability, don't think sailing jackets are the answer.   Be interesting to see how long it is before a company/range is launched that produces kit optimised for the average user rather than top end athletes, I think there's a gap in the market there.

In my experience sailing gear is good at keeping you warm and dry whilst not moving about much. Walking waterproofs are specifically designed for very physical activities. I've always used Force4 basic gear when sailing. High end stuff gets trashed just as quickly on board a yacht.

I still remember going walking in my sailing jacket (not goretex) while waiting for friends to arrive with the boat somewhere in Brittany. The jacket was fine on a boat but even a short clifftop walk  in light rain wasn't pleasant compared to almost any walking/climbing jacket - very sweaty & far too heavy

Bit of an up date ....   

so after a little bit of research on coats/jackets  I decided I was going to buy a new one .....  

I opted for SIMOND MEN’S ALPINISM JACKET , from decathlon , all the reviews I could find only had good things to say , It also lists its waterproof-nes  as being 30,000 mm water pressure , which sounded good to me ...   on further investigation on what that means in real world terms It looks like its going to be awesome ...    

i then visited lots of other websites , and I was unable to find much in the way of hydrostatic head given for other jackets ...  for instance north face , say things like "good for heavy downpour" and "confidence inspiring waterproof" .....     wtf does that even mean .... lol...   

so I thought Id give this Simond jacket a go ...  30,000 mm of water pressure and shower test under 100 litres of water / sqm / hour for 3 hours , sounded like my type of coat ...  

Lol .. I bought the pants to go with it too ...  

yeah ,  I think that my sailing jacket is heavier , and feels more cumbersome ...  tho it did leave me feeling disappointed with my old mountain jacket , I have since bought a new one (today)