UKH

I have a sling that I have neglected somewhat - I had left a couple of knots in it when using it for abseiling a few years ago and then forgot about it.  I have now removed the knots - but will this have weakened the sling?  Is it still safe to use? Cheers!

In reply to RuthW:

If you doubt it so much you need to ask on here, bin it and replace. The last thing you need is even the smallest of doubt about your gear.

In reply to RuthW:

No, it'll be fine.

In reply to RuthW:

Let us know if Dan was right or wrong, won't you.

:-}

In reply to RuthW:  "probably " or maybe " possibly ",

or  for £6.45 " definitly " : 

https://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Climbing-Equipment/Rock-Trad-Climbin...

use it for towing the dog . 

In reply to johncook:

Issue is that I don't have enough knowledge to know whether to doubt it or not!  If it is a practice that is known to weaken the sling then I would clearly ditch it, but if not I wouldn't want to throw it away for no reason!

In reply to johncook:

This approach seems like a step on the road to a compulsive disorder and a mental health issue.

In reply to RuthW:

I'd use it, it being knotted should make any difference, if it's knotted and under load then it becomes an issue.

In reply to RuthW:

Slings don't weaken over time by leaving knots in them.  Knots weaken slings and ropes when they are in use. So, now that you have untied the knots, the sling is as strong as if you had left it in the cupboard for years without knots.

In reply to johncook:

Don't let ignorance prevail. Let people ask their questions and get educated in stead.

In reply to mike123:

. To clarify . The sling is probably ok but of course the possibility exists ( likely small ) that it's not . This possibility becomes almost zero with a new one . The op doesn't say what length of sling it is but the cost of a new one is likely to be less than a tenner . How anybody can say the sling is definitly ok without inspecting or testing it , I'm not sure . If somebody From Lyon sport ( or similar gear importer with a test rig and lots of experience ) came on and said ' with no other knowledge than the op the sling will be fine " I would listen .  

I have in my hand two slings . One is off the shelf from needless sports and still has the tags on , the other has just been handed to me by the op . How old is the sling ? What's it made of ? What was it used for ?  Has it been stored in the shed with the petrol cans ? And on and on ....

 Which one do you want ? 

In reply to RuthW:

Before sewn slings were available we bought tape off the reel and knotted them. We didn't untie the knot after each  use. 

In reply to Pedro50:

No need to - they untied themselves most of the time ;o

In reply to mike123:

Stupid post because you are offering us a choice between two slings, one of which is new (so we know something about it) and another whose usage/condition is a mystery.

Yet the OP does know about the condition of their sling.

And they are not being offered a new sling for free.

So your proposal is not representative if their situation.

To the OP, you did the right thing to ask.  Education is better than throwing money at problems.  Knotted slings can be a bugger to undo but the only way you're likely to damage them is by sticking something sharp/pointy into the knot. Be patient in teasing it apart and you'll be fine. And you'll have saved a trip to the shops and be a tenner richer.

In reply to RuthW:

The trouble with asking for advice on when to retire gear on forums is that you get conflicting replies, and a less than definitive overall answer, so you end up having to make your own judgement - which is where you were in the first place!

In reply to RuthW:

My guess is that the 'few years' and previous usage and where it was stored will have more impact than the knots.

In reply to Pedro50:

I’ve still got a set of rigid stemmed Friends from around 1981, which I replaced the original sewn tapes with knotted Tape when they wore out. They’re performing fine holding falls

In reply to Stefan Jacobsen:

Time and time again the UKC massive is full of voices saying "yeah Use it" ... very easy to say when its not your arse on the line or 60ft up . Twice I've seen the mess a fall makes of the human body and if the price of a bottle of wine or two pints could avert that life changing fall then fine. The needless death of Todd Skinner is perfect proof this dirtbag bravado is just avoidable recklessness.

I work every day with ropes and harnesses and they are treated as a consumable that gets replaced before their integrity becomes suspect.  It never fails to make me laugh that the people urging such frugality with life saving equipment are the ones spanking thousands on Gadgets, Cameras and Clothes that never see an environment harsher than the pub beer garden.

In reply to RuthW:

You don't say whether it's a nylon or dyneema sling, assuming it's one or the other and that it's of tape.. My answer to your question would differ depending on the material, since I'd have more faith in an ageing nylon sling than a dyneema one. Replacement is the certain solution but retention is not only economical but also eco-friendly.

In reply to Pedro50:

Indeed, but that was 19/25mm nylon tubular tape and not 11mm Dyneema. There's probably lots of similar in-situ tat still draped around the cragscape.

As it happens, I've got a couple of big hexes strung with that and a couple of old bits tied with tape knots as guy lines on the kid's swing and slide.

I can't see that a knot left in any sling would significantly weaken it over time, unless it's been loaded so much that it's impossible to undo, which isn't the case here.

In reply to muppetfilter:

The Todd Skinner incident is infamous and involved his sling being permanently connected to his harness as a cows tail during several years of abuse. Because it was never disconnected, the wear on harness and sling was not readily visible. However, he and his mates knew his kit was worn, and he had ordered a new harness when he fell to his tragic but avoidable death.

This has little to do with knotted slings being stored in a drawer and then unknotted.

In reply to Stefan Jacobsen:

Skinner was well aware from what i understand of the damage that had been done to his belay Loop and harness in general and chose to ignore it. Its pertinent to the attitude some climbers have to useing damaged gear and encouraging others to.  As for the OP the attitudes of others to safety is pertinent, my question would be as mentioned above... what else is in the draw ? An old Petzl Zoom ? A bleach residue ? Yes... long term cyclic loading on knotted slings is a major issue but a loaded and knotted sling is one i'm not aware of research on ?

https://www.climbing.com/news/loss-of-a-legend/

In reply to muppetfilter:

You seem to be able to judge people easily, how come you can't do the same for gear?

In reply to muppetfilter:

Actually that was what I wrote:

"... he and his mates knew his kit was worn, and he had ordered a new harness when he fell to his tragic but avoidable death."

In reply to Cobra_Head:

My  decades of climbing and Rigging experience helps making decisions on both equipment and people much easier. I get paid to Audit Equipment , do you?

In reply to muppetfilter:

Was either time because somebody had used a sling that used to have a knot in it?

I'm guessing no, so this is irrelevant information.

If we all agree that it's not cost effective (and wasteful) to use 100% brand new gear every time we climb, then some risk/cost line drawing has to be drawn, so it's perfectly fair for the OP to ask this question and not expect irrelevant information about other people's unrelated falls being put to them as a stick to beat them with for having the temerity to ask.

In reply to muppetfilter:

I bet you would stop getting paid to audit equipment if you always retired it if anybody, regardless of expertise, had the faintest worry about it.

In reply to muppetfilter:

Actually I do, but not climbing equipment. The problem I have is that you've already made your mind up about the sling, knowing nothing about it, apart that it was in a drawer somewhere and it had a knot in it. You also made your mind up about people suggesting it might be OK, that they are frugal and at the same time frivolous spendthrifts.

The equipment I audit is inspected, tested and discussed, before it's ditched, in  a world of over consumption and waste it seems a very responsible way to manage things.

In reply to mike123:

I've an 8mm dyneema sling that is knotted to make a daisy chain/tether for my Jumar. It's been like that since 2004 and used bolting maybe 600 routes in the Med sun, is smeared with polyester and vinylester resin and getting furry on the knots when they rub on the rock. I've also a tester.

So any bets what it fails at?

In reply to jimtitt:

I'll go more than 22kn if you take the knot out first...

In reply to jimtitt:

Unknotted or knotted?

23kN or 17.5kN (overhand knot)

In reply to Oceanrower:

There's five or so knots and they are pretty welded solid, my weight with all the gear is the wrong side of 120kg sometimes.

In reply to jimtitt: 

if this is directed at me , then 22 KN  + or - 10 %. And ?

To me it seems that people are saying that hands down with just the OP to go on , no look see , no history , nothing else .....I'm happy to guarantee that your sling is fine , go ahead matey dangle yourself half way up el cap , or perhaps more likely clip yourself in and lean over a 20m drop and belay your partner / kid / best mate . Really ? is " probably ok " enough ? I wouldn't climb with a single bit of gear that was " probably " ok. I'm not talking about replacing an old ruc sac cos it's looking a bit faded , or chucking  a fleece cost it's got a few little burn holes in it . Replacing climbing gear before it's completely  f?(ked isn't over consumption , it's good practice  and it's going to contribute to keeping me alive .  I also used to climb  on some old rigid stem friends with hand knotted tape on  , which I replaced a few times when it looked  a bit faded . They weren't " probably ok " they were good . But then I replaced them with flexible friends then with  camalots and I've since replaced them with newer camalots . As I ve been trying to say about the sling it s " probably ok " but that's not good enough for me. 

In reply to Dave Cundy:

How is this stupid ? . That's exactly what I'm saying . And it's not stupid .

In reply to mike123:

Stefan above gave the answer i.e there is no evidence that leaving knots in an otherwise perfect sling weakens it.

I've tested plenty of slings over the years, (nylon slings that broke under the weight of the strain guage for example) and the worst unknotted dyneema one was 13kN, normally hold about 16.

In reply to jimtitt:

"in an otherwise perfect sling "

Yep , with you on that, without a  doubt . And you/ he know 100% that this is the case here ? 

Edit : because that's not what it says in the first line of this thread .

In reply to Cobra_Head:

 you obviously missed the bit where I said ...

" my question would be as mentioned above... what else is in the draw ? An old Petzl Zoom ? A bleach residue ? Yes... long term cyclic loading on knotted slings is a major issue but a loaded and knotted sling is one i'm not aware of research on ?"

I am commenting on this particular sling but also the people who so happy to say "I Would" when the reality is caution dictates otherwise. In the real worls human error causes most accidents but damaged and worn gear has played its part in several I can reference that were all avoidable.

As for resources, consumption and carbon footprints the rescue and subsequent months of medical treatment of an injured climber is much higher than replacing a bit of worn damaged equipment.

In reply to RuthW:

Thanks to all the replies and debate!  Sounds like the consensus is that the previous knots themselves should not cause a problem in an otherwise un-abused sling.  It has been used a handful of times as a larks foot for abseiling, but is otherwise barely used.  Having un-knotted it there is no sign of any wear and tear.  It has been stored in a wardrobe in my house in the intervening time.

Interestingly in reply to mike123's point regarding the choice between my sling and a new one - would this not always be the case with any previously used sling?  So, once it has been used even once, a new one is a better bet? Where is the cut off? I could end up buying a new sling rather frequently!

In reply to RuthW: the point I was trying to make was that people are telling you that your sling "is " perfectly fine when really they cant possibly know . Your post does start with " I have a sling that I have neglected somewhat " , this  is very different to a sling thats been used 100 or 1000 s s of times but been well looked after, stored out of the sun , away from possible contanimation etc . If I have a piece of gear  that I have even the slightest doubt about then it goes in the bin or gets cut up so it cAnt  be used as climbing gear .  

Edit : repition and deviation 

In reply to RuthW: and yes I would always choose a new bit of gear over an old one . The reason I don't is that it would be over consumption and expensive .  I know the history of every bit of gear I use and use this to inform my decision as to  when To retire it . I ve retired gear that " looks " fine but is just getting old and "might " not be ,. 

In reply to mike123:

I assume you only solo then. Or do you know the history of every piece of gear of every person you climb with?

Or do you insist they only climb on your gear?

In reply to Oceanrower:

I know and trust the people I climb with  . And I have climbed with a few people that I've insisted we use my gear and In One case my ropes ,

edit : I do take your point though . 

In reply to RuthW:

There is an interesting report on the UIAA website produced by DAV (German Alpine Club) about the ageing of slings. The take away is: 

1) Retire fuzzy, dirty slings
2) Retire nylon slings after 6 to 10 years use
3) Retire dyneema slings after 3 years use

You can find the report (Panorama 2015/4 The Aging of Sling Materials) here:

https://www.theuiaa.org/safety-standards/research-information/

In reply to muppetfilter:

And I'm asking where you get all these proposals from, they knew where the sling had been stored, they also knew what else was stored in the wardrobe too, so why are you introducing a load of fictitious dangers that don't exist.

If they'd said I found a sling at the back of my garage, I don't know how long it's been there it would be a different matter, you seem to be inventing a load of scenarios to meet you decision.

Only if you don't know it's history!

Once again you're assuming it's going to fail and they'll get injured.

In reply to Cobra_Head:

Random side question - what if there are two knots?

Would it then be 12kn?

or?

In reply to GarethSL:

If a knot in a sling breaks at 17.5kN, and there are 2 knots in the same sling, which one do you think might break at 12kN, and why?

In reply to RuthW:

Slings are meant to be knotted and unknotted.

In reply to GarethSL:

No

In reply to john arran:

Put like that the brain-fart is obvious. 

In reply to C Witter:

Someone disliking this post obviously doesn't understand this pretty basic piece of climbing equipment...

Why do so many people hyperventilate about a knot in a piece of equipment designed to be knotted? Watch any guide building a belay from a sling... oh crap! They put a knot in it! What were they thinking?!?!

In reply to muppetfilter:

Fixed that for you. 

In reply to C Witter:

Yes, but once it's been knotted you have to buy a new one.

In reply to RuthW:

Poor RuthW, look what you've done

You've got to love UKC for it's response to simply questions.

In reply to C Witter:

I disliked your post, now reversed, as I misinterpreted your intent or meaning.

If you remember the history of sewn slings, the original intention was to neaten, lighten and replace slipping knots at the same time increasing the overall strength when new. Later techniques developed that added knots to sewn slings such as  equalising belays and abseiling lanyards.

Edit. Fwiw, if I have a knot in a sewn sling that suits its purpose I leave it in.

There are a lot more important safety issues to stop me breaking more bones when climbing.

In reply to C Witter:

They are NOT designed to be knotted, nowhere in the standard is there any mention of knotting nor any testing with knots, unlike ropes.

What guides do is their affair.

In reply to jimtitt:

never mind that, what was the breaking strain, and what did I win?

In reply to jimtitt:

All correct and fair comment, but designed to meet standards whether current or retrospectively applicable  would be more accurate. As usage develops, manufacturers , like say DMM, will do extra testing and release the results in educational videos on their website.

In reply to jimtitt:

900kg

In reply to Rick Graham:

Mammut solution

youtube.com/watch?v=yFIEqluoeGY&

In reply to Rick Graham:

It wouldn't be more accurate, they are still designed and made to the standard which hasn't substantially changed since it was first issued and no allowance or refererence is ever made for knotting them.

The whole issue is a mess, the original premise was that equipment made to the standard would be strong enough over it's "normal" lifespan but nowadays the manufacturers, the organisations and even internet pundits are expected to make a decision on what is the lower acceptable limit on strength, the actual standard makers (UIAA and CEN) can't or won't tell the rest of the world so we end up in a completely random situation. For example the DAV paper referred above says retire Dyneema after three years which no cam manufacturer says and it can't be the case that the sling in a 2kN rated micro cam is as unsafe as one in a 15kN cam after 3 years.

As a climbing equipment manufacturer I am required to give a lifespan for my products and how the user can check them BUT the standards authority cannot tell me what criteria to use to decide when they are "unsafe". Obviously they can't say " when it no longer achieves the standard" as this probably makes nearly all soft-goods unsafe after the first time they are used. So the industry (over a few beers) makes a guess (and people like Muppetfilter).

For my products (bolts and lower-offs etc) wear is an issue and I've been asked by various organisations over the years what is acceptable and done a fair amount of testing, the results never apoear in their recommendations because they frighten people, when I say 80% worn (material removed) this somehow turns into "appreciable wear". This is compounded by the unknown compatability with other equipment, the contact radius for a karabiner is clearly defined but for a rope is not.

Knotting slings is convenient and fits nicely into the " climbing educationalists" desire to invent new macrame systems but is unescessary, I've never needed to in my climbing career except to pass my SPA.

In reply to jimtitt:

Blimy, I'm not sure I've ever used a sling without knotting it! (Runners on massive spikes being the one exception). I'd never even considered it was outside the design parameters. 

In reply to Rick Graham:

This guy does some relevant stuff. I'm not commenting on whether he does it well or not. Take from it what you want, with or without a pinch of salt, but I found the channel pretty interesting. Old, knotted sling (knot still in) appears about 8 minutes in.
youtube.com/watch?v=NwbMfh4FqT4&

In reply to jimtitt:

Feel better now  Glad I gave you the opportunity to let off some steam, Jim.

I hate unnecessary burocracy but at least the standards seem to work apart from inventive climbers managing to find new ways to break gear and themselves occasionally. 

In most industries, I guess , innovators work faster than Standard authorities.

Looking forward to clipping some more of your bolts, thanks rick.

In reply to jimtitt:

<The whole issue is a mess...

< For example the DAV paper referred above says retire Dyneema after three years which no cam manufacturer says and it can't be the case that the sling in a 2kN rated micro cam is as unsafe as one in a 15kN cam after 3 years.

They specifically mention that quick draws (read: draws on cams) can be used longer simply because they are not knotted. I guess they would agree with you that a 2 kN micro cam with a 22 kN dyneema sling will not need to be discarded after 3 years.

Their discard treshold is set to 16 kN for slings meant to be knotted because knots weaken (dyneema) slings with up to 50% and harsh falls are up to 6 kN (rarely 8 kN).

In reply to mike123:

No.  what they are saying is that the knot wont have made any difference to the condition of the sling. The OP raised no other concerns and the advice was given in this context.. In a professional capacity it may be necessary to add all the caveats but not on an internet forum when the only question raised was so clearly about the effect of the knot.

In reply to harold walmsley: ok , could you point me to that above ?  I’m not going to go back through the whole thread and check IBut all I could see and I suppose was Replying rob that the OP asks that a sling in her words “ has been somewhat Neglected” would be safe to use . Knowbody asked what I thought were the obvious questions before saying yes .  Somebody said “ in an otherwise good sling the knot will have made no difference “ , Without  asking Wether that was the case . One of first people to say the sling was fine then provides a link saying a dynernma sling should be retired after three years . Forgive me but a couple In everyday speak means about 2 ( pedantically it is 2 ) So let’s say It was dyneema ( last time I read through we still don’t know ) and the OP had had it for a year ?  Lots of people make all sorts of assumptions about the sling other than the knot , don’t ask , and are happy to say “ go ahead mate “ . I’m genuinely surprised that I seem to be in the minority in saying “! No possible way I can say yes so therefore no . I d also like to see some evidence Proper technical literature that leaving a knot in a dyneema doesn’t affect it . Intuitively I agree that it “ probably “ doesn’t . But proper tests ? And there we go again “ probably “ . See above for how I feel about probably . 

In reply to mike123:

She explained perfectly and clearly about her "neglect".

"I have a sling that I have neglected somewhat - I had left a couple of knots in it when using it for abseiling a few years ago and then forgot about it. "

No other mention of any other concerns was voiced and it was quite clear the knots were the subject of her request for information.

In reply to jimtitt:

With respect, I think "standards" and intended use are not the same. And, most industry user instructions begin with a preamble pointing the user toward qualified instruction if in doubt (i.e. ....guides).

Anyway, here's Petzl describing knots in slings as safe: https://www.petzl.com/sfc/servlet.shepherd/version/download/0681r00000BAtEJ...

Here's Petzl describing how to build a safe belay with a knotted sling: https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Installing-an-equalized-belay-station?Act...

Here's DMM pointing out how various knots decrease strength, but not warning against knotting slings: https://dmmclimbing.com/DMMWales/Media/ProductInstructions/LanguageGroupsCo...

Here's Edelrid doing much the same as DMM: https://media.edelrid.de/images/attribut/54559_GAL_SLINGS_ANSICHT.pdf

Here's Libby Peter, whose book is required reading on MTA quals courses, using knotted slings all over the shop: http://www.libbypeterclimbing.co.uk/techpdfs/trad4.pdf

So... I think my original point stands.