UKH

I think you underestimated how long it took me to think of that topic title....

I am looking for a new tent, a 4 season 3/4 person tent (Read: 2 people with enough room for gear and non-gymnastic moment).  I am not planning on taking it to the Arctic or Himalayas but I want it something I can put up anywhere all year round and know it will still be standing when I get back. Weight is fairly unimportant as its more of a basecamp tent. I think I would prefer outer pitch first as that's what I am used to (but most of the tents I have found all seem to be inner first. Some sort of porch is essential. 

My current favourite is the Alpkit Zhota, they didn't even try to hide the fact they were making a Quasar. I am a little bit put off by a few of the reviews saying the seam tape was coming away after fairly little use, but then for half the price of a Quasar I can live it.

So what other comparable tents are there that you recommend?  As much as I would like a Quasar, to get a 3 person its the Super Quasar which has a super price tag and that takes you into Hilleberg money.  

Have you checked out Lightwave's range of tents? They do both a 3 man tunnel and a semi geodesic with extended porches (T30 trail xt and G30 trek xt). I have one of their smaller tents, the T10 Trek (now discontinued), and it has proved to be pretty bombproof for fell top wild camping. Customer service excellent too.

https://www.lightwave.uk.com/products/tents/lightwave-tents

Edit - been looking at the reviews for the Zhota - they certainly don't make for pleasant reading, especially regarding customer service!

Having used numerous quasars / ultra quasars over the years I think the alpkit kangri is slightly closer to them in shape and dimensions. For me it's more than ample for 2 people with kit but I suppose you will always expand to fill the space available. I bought one (kangri) a couple of years ago and been pleased with it so far, if money was no object I might possibly have got a quasar, but tbh some of the small details like internal pockets etc are actually slightly better in the kangri. 

I would back up the suggestion of Lightwave. My 15 year old Lightwave is still going strong and they have been able to supply spare poles even though my tent was discontinued years ago.

The other major factor in tent bombproofness of course is pitching it correctly. This week I’ve seen a Hilleberg fully invert and then get flattened because it was pitched badly. Various incredibly cheap tents on the same site were fine because they were pitched well. A part of that is the right pegs too - wet ground pegs are useless in dry ground for example.

Hilleberg!  Spend the money like you'd spend it on a house, and it will stay standing for most of your life. 

I had a brief look on there website a long while ago, and I must admit I discounted them thinking they looked a bit flimsy (having never seen one in the flesh!) but a few people have recommended them and they certainly have an interesting looking range so I will check them out. Bomb proof is what we are after! 

I want the Zhota, but I am really struggling going for it based on the reviews alone.  

I think you are right with shape of the Kangri, but I would like a 3 man tent.  We have a 2 man Wild Country Zephyros (sp) for hiking with and and like you say its plenty of room for that.  But for us this will be more of a basecamp tent so that bit of extra room for living in and having everything in the tent rather than the porch will be nice.  

I think lightwave looks promising, its great to hear good reviews. I like supporting smaller brands too - I didn't realise they were part of the Crux / AK rucksack company! 

A few years ago in a past life I was a scout leader while at university, we ended up helping on this scout camp on the Isle of White.  Long story short some serious wind came in, I think it was the tail end of some hurricane or something?! After a whole day of it, I was quite surprised to find my wild country Zephyros still standing - like you say its all to do with the pitching.

They 'evacuated' us to the local scout school where we stayed the night, when we went back to the camp ground in the morning it was carnage! Why people didnt take there tents down the night before I will never know, but about the only things still standing were the old school Vango Force 10's and pop up tents! 

Sounds like it will last longer than a new build house! 

My Hilleberg is 30+ years old. Still functional. Stupid money even then but one of my better buys.

No. If you're going to spend that money, just buy a Quasar. Much better made, possible to get spares, will last longer and are much, much sturdier. I have owned one for 15 years, and it's remained upright whilst Hillebergs have literally collapsed around it.  

If you want bombproof Alpkit probably isn't the way to go. I should start here by saying I really like their stuff, but part of the saving comes from the reduced durability of the materials and craftsman ship vs a full premium product (such as in this case, a Quasar).

For the sake of balance I'll throw in that I had a Lightwave which was the worst tent I've ever had and that their customer service was non-existent.

Have you read any of the recent stuff about WC/TN tents? It's not good.

I've had my quasar for almost 20 years now and love it (not that I get to camp much in recent years). However, I've had several poles snap, not in some horrendous mountain storm but just putting it up/taking it down in a sheltered glen. It has kinda put me off taking it on remote trips into the mountains. 

At first I thought it might be a dodgey batch so bought a new set of poles but the same thing happened. 

Problems with Terra Nova poles and groundsheets seems to have been one of the abiding topics on UKC over the last 20 years. My Terra Nova (21 years old) has become close to unusable as it's very difficult to pass the poles through the mesh pole sleeves without the mesh just ripping. Whatever material they used ages poorly compared to the inner tent fabric and the fly.

Quasars are a really strong design, but I've used a Hilleberg tunnel tent in some wild weather in March in Lyngen and it was rock solid - we did spend an age pitching it, building a snow wall etc. though. They still seem to be the tent of choice for the Antarctic and sled based trips in the North as well. Do you think which model of tent, or how well it was pitched could have accounted for your experience?

Not really, because I'm not in the market for a new one... because mine is still going strong. 

Converse: the poles in mine survived in a storm with 90kmh wind, 120+ kmh gusts. (We had a proper weather station for this, because science expedition, so real numbers).

Sounds like I'm going to have to keep an eye on my pole sleeves the next few years! I should add here that I do quite a bit of preventative maintenance on my tent, as it leads a pretty hard life (I usually spend a month or so in it in the Arctic under some guise most years). So I annually UV proof the fly and upper inner, and Fabsil the groundsheet. 

Always possible of course - the specific experience I'm talking about was camping on moraine, so pretty hard to really peg out a tunnel well (rocks round guy lines can only do so much). However for me that's part of the equation - a badly put up Quasar is still very solid, whereas a badly put up Hilleberg Tunnel (or any tunnel) tends to fall over. I honestly can't say I've really looked into it ever, but AFAIK Hilleberg don't really make geodesic tents, which is where the main benefit I'm describing here comes from?  

Hilleberg Jannu is what you're looking for. https://hilleberg.com/eng/tent/red-label-tents/jannu/ 

On the face of it the Zhota looks like a lot of tent for the money, but those reviews are offputting, to say the least - especially regarding customer service.

"old school Vango Force 10's"

Ah, I had a Mk4 back in the day, lasted me more than 3 decades.

Still available from Blacks of Greenock!

Quite, I've never had an issue with my quasar in strong winds, and have camped in up to around 80mph winds. The only time I've ever had poles break has been in sheltered glens when erecting/dismantling. Maybe I'm just unlucky!

And I agree with you regarding the quasars ability to maintain their strength in the most dubious of pitches. 

Yep, this - my cheap Blacks tent stayed rock solid on a windy airfield when lots of other tents were flapping around and being flattened. Shame I had to bin it after the flysheet got eaten by a mouse when it got left in the Scout stores.

Have you looked at Vango?

The TBS system is really good and I loved my Equinox 250, until the PU coating on the flysheet went sticky.

Doesn't seem to feature in the current range, though - nearest looks like the Omega or Scafell. My niggle is that the the poles are now outside the fly, as with the later generation Equinox - my early gen one had them on the inside of the fly, meaning a smoother profile that caught less wind.

They do mostly seem to favour the tunnel type, but there's at least a couple of cross-pole models in their range - from memory the Tarra is the equivalent to the Quasar.

Literally everybody has a story about the the time all the other tents in the campsite got flattened and their tent was the only one left standing.

Funnily enough our Decathlon 3s tent was continually flattened (but sprang back) all through a night at Nant Peris.  It was bloody annoying pushing it off our faces but in the morning we were still dry and the tent had survived.  The other mountain tents in the campsite were all standing but had filled up with water through their groundsheets mostly.

I have a Lightwave T30 XT and it has lots of space and is comfortable with two people.  It seems well made but I haven't put it through any really bad weather yet.  You can also fit a 10'6 paddleboard inside it when you got the pub!

Utter cobblers.

Quasars are great tents, and I will concede that for ultimate peace of mind in a storm, a Quasar type geodesic design is what to go for and if money was no object I'd get a Saivo. But Terra Nova better made than Hilleberg? I own/have owned a few of both brands and Hillebergs are notably superior in construction and design.

Most modern tents at that end of the market blow down because they haven't been pitched or pegged correctly. I've slept soundly in my Nallo 3GT in insane winds. The fabric makes a lot of noise and moves around a lot but I've never had damage or collapse.

WC/TerraNova's mesh sleeves were rubbish. Have they changed them or do any of the knock offs do it better? I'd look at Alpkit if cost was an issue.

Personally , and looking for the similar, I'm tempted by the various Marmot tents I see on sale for a 3 season basecamp

This is a great shout. Assuming you don't have to carry it anywhere (you said it was a basecamp tent) these are bombproof, very quiet in the wind, and last forever.  

A three man Mk4 Force 10 with polyester fly weighs in at 7kg, quite a load.

Having said that, I lent mine (the 8kg cotton fly version) to a friend, and he hiked with his two teenage children from Helmsdale to Lochinver!

I would be interested to know what problems you had with your Lightwave tent.

The only issue I have with mine is that it is noisy in strong winds, the porch in particular flaps a lot. But a pair of foam earplugs sorts that. Other than that, very well made, and very tough.

I bought my discontinued T10 Trek from crux-outlet.online (Lightwave/Crux discount store), an absolute bargain at £129 inc postage. It came with different pegs than were specified. What was supplied were perfectly fine, but I cheekily rang them up and asked for the missing specified pegs (4 of their bombproof 'Breaker' pegs), and Carol was very helpful on the phone - he popped some in the post that day.

Seconded.  I'd have a black label hilleberg over a Quasar any day!

Hillebergs have way tougher fabric, can double pole many models and tend to have more space inside.

Quasars are good, but there is a reason that most people take a Hilleberg to the South Pole.

Apart from my post above, I also forgot to mention that the Quasar is inner pitch first... pretty outdated and so much extra faff in bad weather.

For a geodesic, I'd have a Saivo over anything else... amazing tents.

This is a key point I'd forgotten about. We have a MSR Hubba and Mrs 65 used to have a Voyager, both of them are fine if it isn't raining. If it is, getting into it once pitched is a miserable experience and entails lots of care with down kit etc.
A tent which can be left with the inner and outer permanently attached is very advantageous, but failing that it's fly first every time.

Buy a used Hilleberg.

Just did an ebay search and found a Hilleberg Keron 4 for half price.

How often do you find yourself putting up a tent in pissing rain though? I have done it, including doing it with inner first tents, and of course it is sub optimal, but it's relatively rare and even putting up tents often on my own these days, you can often chuck the fly over pretty soon during the process, plus solid inner tents (mesh ones less good) are water resistant enough for a short time anyway.

I totally accept it can happen but I camp relatively often and I really can't remember a time where my tent got soaked just from putting it up.

Yes, not that often. I'm thinking of a particularly horrible night a couple of years ago opposite Culra where the wind didn't help matters and the inner was wet if not soaked by the time we got in. However given that it is possible to design a tent with outer first pitching which can withstand almost anything it seems pointless buying anything else, especially living in the UK. 

Edit, and, without going back into the mists of time, a few years back pitching a Voyager outside the Hutchy Hut in lashing rain in high winds. I was grateful for the hut to cook and sit in.

You might as well go for the mk5, vast inside, £490.1 at the moment and my mk3 has been going strong since 1984. Only weights 10kg, but if its for base camping then thats fine i think.

A couple of years ago in the autumn I walked up toward Scafell from the South leaving my car at around 11 pm, and camped around midnight at the col at the end of Moasdale before you drop down into upper Eskdale and the Great Moss. It was the night that clocks go forward, so late October and utterly foul. I rarely wear waterproof over trousers but had them on from the car that night. I had my little Macpac which goes up inner and fly together with just one pole pushed through. It's a bit squashed in there with wet pack, wet boots, wet waterproofs and so on, but I was pleased that night to have a tent that goes up all in one!

I've used outer pitching first tents before - indeed my first proper tent of my own was one (anyone remember Litchfield tents?) - but found their disadvantage is that inner can be saggy and it adds little or nothing to the structural integrity of the tent. I've spent wild nights in Quasars in the past as well, and they are rock solid tent in poor weather - I think inner pitching first geodesics perhaps are strongest design, despite their disadvantages.

Have you looked at Vaude tents? Not cheap, but great products.

It's a long story but here you go:

I bought a G20 Trek for a cycling trip to the Pyrenees in 2014.  When I tried pitching it at home the transverse pole was very tight which made it difficult to pitch correctly.  I sent several emails to Lightwave and called several times but got no response. Eventually I got through on the phone and was told that it was normal and would disappear when I pegged it out properly (I hadn't had the storm guys pegged).

I took the tent on my trip and after a few nights it was obvious that the above was not the case. It was impossible to get it pitched correctly.Whatever I tried the transverse pole did not meet the ground on either side.  This made the tent unstable in side winds and left a very big gap under the fly into which rain was blown on a few occasions wetting the inner. In heavy rain water penetrated the seams, most worryingly the seam across the top.  This soaked the inner and on a couple of occasions lead to us packing up sleeping bags etc and sleeping in waterproofs. For the rest of the trip I placed a waterproof jacket over the tent to try to stop this.

By the end of the three week trip several small holes had appeared at various points on the fabric (not at seams) which caused further leakage and many of the seams had opened up creating holes.

Based on my earlier experience, when I got home I didn't try to contact Lightwave but went straight to the shop and asked for a refund. When they heard my story and saw the holes / seams they did this without question. I included a letter for Lightwave in the packed up tent detailing all the issues and giving my contact details and also sent this via the contact box on the website but no one ever got back to me.

Years later I posted a similar comment to my first one on this thread and someone from Lightwave got in touch. I sent them a version of the above and they never responded. 

Appreciate that you can find someone who's had a poor experience with any company but personally I won't ever be buying from Lightwave or their sister companies again.

The customer service that stood out for the right reasons in this was that of the retailer Go Outdoors.

Thanks - important to hear both sides of the story

Thanks for all the replies guys, its really interesting to hear about peoples different experiences.  Especially with inner vs outer pitching, I have only had experience with outer pitching first so good to here both sides.

I think after all these comments I have decided Lightwave is the way forward.  I am just deciding which model.  

Its probably between the G30 Trek XT and the T30 Trail XT.  Both are very comparable tents, material wise the Trek is 70g/m^2 ripstop and the Trail is 60g/m^2 ripstop (doesn't sound much of a difference to me?) and the groundsheet is 135g/m^2 150d polyester where as the Trail is 150g/m2 210d nylon (the trail seems to have the obvious advantage here?). So material wise its arguable that the Trail has slightly more durable / tougher materials. 

Size wise again they are comparable, the Trail is slightly longer and has more headroom (but then inner pitch normally have a saggier inner so there is probably no difference in usable space). 

The main difference is that the Trek is a geodesic inner pitch and the trail is a tunnel outer pitch. HOWEVER, the trail can also be pitched inner first if need be - although its still no geodesic tent.

At this point I am genuinely stuck. Half of me says Trail as its what I am used to (outer first), I can save time pitching the two together, probably easier to pitch as well, on paper it has the (slightly) better materials. 

And the other half says Trek as geodesic is known to be stronger in wind / stronger design. 

Having looked at it yet again I am wondering if the XT versions are too much tent and the standard is going to be more suitable and sturdier in bad weather. 

Might just book a hotel! 

During a night in a Cairngorms blizzard my trusty Hilleberg did exactly this. The others were in a Quasar, making pretty much no noise. During the night I realised they might be getting buried and slowly suffocating, and with considerable resolve and self-sacrifice I stayed tightly snug in my sleeping bag till dawn

Good chap, thats the British way - they certainly would not have wanted your assistance if offered and could have taken offense!

If bombproofness is high on your list, I would probably favour the semi-geodesic g30 trek, maybe without the extended porch (the smaller footprint will help with finding a pitch if you are wild camping too).

I see where Lightwave are coming from when they say that inner first is stronger structurally, the inner actually becomes part of the structure, but the compromise is of course that the inner will get wet if you pitch in the rain. 

As I said earlier, I have a T10 Trek, a one man tunnel tent that is inner first. I have found that I can pitch it 'all in one' if I leave the flysheet attached to the inner pole sleeves when I take it down (it is attached by a total of 8 velcro straps). When I pitch all in one, a bit more care is needed when threading the poles through the sleeves, but with practice it is not too much trouble, and also quicker than attaching all to the velcro tabs every time. Not sure how feasible that this would be with a semi geodesic (or even if the same system of velcro straps is used), but having a second person to help would certainly make matters easier.

Interesting that the flysheet fabrics differ in weight slightly, when they are both made with 40d nylon. I wouldn't worry about the difference, I'm sure both are very strong. Likewise the groundsheets.

I currently own an Alpkit Kangri geodesic and before that, I had a Hillberg Nammatj tunnel tent.

I had the Hillberg for about eight years. I used it maybe two weekends per month, on average, during the spring and summer camping in the UK and Ireland. Mostly in Scotland. Then, during a windy day while camping at the Girvan folk festival (we are not talking a high mountain environment here), the fly ripped. I bodged it with glue and Tenacious tape because I was going to Reiff the next week and did not have time to send it away for repairs.

We had high winds during that Reiff trip and my Tenacious tape repair held, but the fly ripped along the edge of the tape. After that trip, I sent it to Scottish Mountain Gear for proper repairs. They said that they could not sew it back together because the UV degradation was too great, and the material was too weak to withstand sewing.

I contacted Hillberg, thinking a tent that costs what these cost should last longer than eight years. And it wasn't like it had been sitting for weeks and weeks at Everest Camp 2. We are talking a few days here, a day there, maybe a whole week or ten days once or twice per year.

Hillberg told me that UV damage was not covered under the warranty. They added that I should have pitched the tent under trees (have you been to Scotland or the West coast of Ireland?) or taken it down for the day when I went out hiking/climbing/kayaking/playing Irish music, then repitched in the evening. Seriously, who does that? They kindly offered me a new fly for £800. I did not take them up on this.

I bought the Kangri. It has been a good tent, but I agree with the posters above who say that Alpkit lowers the cost and weight with flimsy material. I had to patch up a hole in the inner where the inside pocket had pulled apart the fabric. Then, three years into its tenure, the fly ripped in the wind, weakened by those damned UV rays. The ridiculous thing is that I had been setting up a tarp over the tent whenever it was pitched for more than two continuous days. It spent a few weeks in the Alps, Reiff, and Utah underneath its tarp.

After I detailed exactly how and where I had used the tent, Alpkit agreed that it should not have failed and sent me a new fly for free.

That aside, I prefer the geodesic to the tunnel design. It's easier to pitch on funky ground and bombproof in the wind. It does not flap like a deranged sparrow. You can easily pick up the tent and move it if a group of Scouts sets up camp beside you and blasts music from their minibus turned up to 11. The identically sized porches on either end are very practical. It's inner-first, but you can pitch the inner in minutes, then throw the fly over it. I have not had any problems with it getting soaked when pitching in the rain. There is plenty of room inside for two people and lots of gear.

My Hillberg tent would get soaking wet inside from condensation. It sloped down steeply in the back, so the end of your sleeping bag would end up wet. Not ideal. The Alpkit hardly gets damp, and it's one of the best tents I have ever used when it comes to ventilation. You can make it cool and airy during hot days in the Alps and warm and cosey during Scottish winter.

In terms of design, it is a well-thought out tent. Alpkit have done a lovely job with details like pocket placement, glow in the dark zippers, the faff-free manner in which the fly attaches to the inner, and generally making it a very user-friendly tent. I just wish the gear companies would stop this race against weight and make tents out of stronger materials. A tent like a Kangri or Zhota isn't meant to be a backpacking tent. I would not mind an extra kilogram or two if it meant the tent would last longer.

When it goes, I will definitely look for that geodesic Quasar-type design, but if I can find one made out of tougher nylon (if such a thing exists), I will probably buy that.

UV is a killer for nylon.  Polyester is much more UV resistant and should be chosen as the tent fly material if prolonged UV exposure is expected.

It's a design feature to help shed snow!

Hilleberg =/ tunnel tent. 
 

if you want to do comparisons, at least do it like for like. Hilleberg does actually make also 4-pole geodetic tents, and they are pretty much bomb proof.

so the first question to ask for the OP is freestanding (ie. 4-pole geodetic) or tunnel (or pyramid/teepee). If freestanding isn’t a requirement (good ground for stakes, rocks or treeroots/trees), then tunnels are a lot easier to live with. That being said, I’m amazed How robust my GoLite Shangri-La 5 teepee type tent is. It has withstood Lyngen/Kebnekaise winter storms in the open, as well as all that Lofoten summer storms have thrown at it (including storms that wrecked havoc on multiple tents in Kallebukta). The shape of teepee tents is actually rather wind resistant… the only limitation is solid ground for the stakes.

The real problem with being 'over tented'.  I've used a Helsport Patagonia which is pretty well bombproof, but not a great summer tent as it is designed not to be ventilated..

If you're looking to save a bit of cash, my partner and I have used our Husky Fighter tent on a few remote winter expeditions and found it to be more than serviceable. Really easy to set up, you can leave the inner connected to the outer so all you have to do is thread the poles through the outer and up it goes. It's durable, has two different style porches, snow skirts (vital in winter), well ventilated, and fairly spacious inside. It's only downside is that they stupidly only put two guy lines on the tent, which means guy line support is only from lateral gusts so the porches do flap a bit in high winds. Can be seen in action:  youtube.com/watch?v=aFSJ7KAOXHo&t=1636

You can definitely get better for more money. An inner-first pitched tent with a tensioned fly over the top, with more guys, (something like a TNF Mountain 25) will definitely be more bombproof and flap way less. Saying that, trying to put a fly over the inner tent during a polar storm is pretty dangerous. I much prefer our Husky for pitching in bad conditions, you fix the outer to an anchor whilst it's still in the bag, then thread all the poles whilst it's flat, then it goes up immediately so you don't have to worry about your tent fly getting sent to the other side of the ice cap. 

Yes, the classic Orange force ten is great for winter car camping, or even into the hills if three of you. Indestructible against the weather and drunken sots tripping over it at night  

Also I've never seen one in the flesh, but the Simond Makalu tent looks like a lot of tent for the money https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/3-person-mountaineering-tent-makalu-t3/_/R-p-...

That Simond looks like a very muscular tent, on the face of it very good value too.

I have a brand new Nallo 2 + Footprint that I'll be putting up for sale once I complete my probation on the forum.

I got it last summer & I only pitched it to attach the footprint where I realised it was going to be too big for what to use it for so it's been in the bag since & needs to go to a good home

I'm not going to contravene any forum rules by offering it up here; So if your still in the market for a tent in a few weeks keep an eye on the For Sale section