How Much has gear improved with time?

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 glenn0010 25 Sep 2019

So I've only been buying "proper" gear for the last year.

How much has gear improved since you've started buying it?

How have mountaineering boots (B2s B3s etc) improved. Lighter, warmer more waterproof?

Jackets more packabale etc?

What was the biggest leap in technology?

Seems like quite an interesting topic for me.

Cheers

 Dave the Rave 25 Sep 2019
In reply to glenn0010:

I’m sure it will provoke much discussion, especially packabilty v functionality and longevity.

 Dave the Rave 25 Sep 2019
In reply to glenn0010:

I would offer the biggest leap in technology to be GPS. I’ve got one from the mid 90s but haven’t embraced the change.

 Dave the Rave 25 Sep 2019
In reply to glenn0010:

At some stage I may mention that the lack of stormflaps on an outer layer is daft.

 McHeath 25 Sep 2019
In reply to glenn0010:

I started in the 70s. The things that spring to mind from that time are:

No cams

No curved nuts

EBs were state of the art climbing shoes

No breathables

No synthetic thermal underwear; fleece had only just been invented (and stank!)

No step-in crampons; instead, neoprene straps which always loosened at the worst possible moment ...

... and so on.

I'm only 60 though; there are sure to be stories of hemp ropes and drilled out nuts coming up!

In reply to glenn0010:

Politically uncomfortable but I seem to remember Chris Bonington describing the plastic bag as the biggest advance in mountaineering equipment. 

It is still true, without dry kit... 

 Doug 26 Sep 2019
In reply to McHeath:

agree with most of that but

"No synthetic thermal underwear; fleece had only just been invented (and stank!)"

when did Damart & Lifa appear ? I remember buying a set of Damart 'expedition' longjohns & shirt in  the mid 70s as I had them for my first visit to the Alps in 1976 & the Lifa equivalents in 1978 when I went back to university

Also add no decent icescrews & ice axes which although better than before were not as good as the banana picks (eg Chacal & Baracuda) that appeared at the end of the decade

When did Karimat appear ? made camping more comfortable

 Andy Hardy 26 Sep 2019
In reply to Doug:

I bought a karrimat in 1978, which seems to be indestructible

 summo 26 Sep 2019
In reply to glenn0010:

The turning point would probably be any of the kit that meant falling on a multipitch route wasn't a death sentences.

Harnesses, dynamic rope, runners.

Individually I'd say cams or the rope. Or even plastic based waterproofs; gortex, pertex etc. That moved everyone away from heavy natural fabrics. 

But then there's crampons... 

 McHeath 26 Sep 2019
In reply to Doug:

> when did Damart & Lifa appear ? I remember buying a set of Damart 'expedition' longjohns & shirt in  the mid 70s as I had them for my first visit to the Alps in 1976 & the Lifa equivalents in 1978 when I went back to university

Yes, you're right; Damart was founded in 1953. I didn't discover it for myself until after my first trip to the Alps in 1979, where I'd worn constantly damp and itchy woollen long johns and a waxed fishing jacket

 Sean Kelly 26 Sep 2019
In reply to glenn0010:

I would nominate the belay plate. To those of us that had only the shoulder or waist belay I shudder to recall trying to hold a fall, especially without gloves!

 nikoid 26 Sep 2019
In reply to glenn0010:

Clipsticks!!!!!????

6
 TobyA 26 Sep 2019
In reply to Doug:

I happened to be looking at the HH website the other night whilst deciding whether to invest in another Lifa baselayer that are reasonably cheap on Sports Pursuit right now - so happened to notice they say they started making it in 1970 - but I guess it might have taken a few years to make across the North Sea!

I got my first one in I think 1991 or 2, and wore again today cycling into work. It must be the best value bit of outdoor clothing I own as it still works well, has been and is still used regularly (winter cycling commute base layer mainly) and looks like it should make it to 30 years. I just bought two Lifa T shirt baselayers from the aforementioned website for 8 quid each which seemed reasonable but I'm unconvinced they wick as well as my 27 year old one!

 IainL 26 Sep 2019
In reply to TobyA:

We were using Lifa for white water kayak racing in 71-72. A lot of new sports stuff came out for 72 Olympics eg trainers and fabrics.There were semi-breathable waterproofs in US in 60s. Some of the down gear then has still not been beaten.

 wilkesley 26 Sep 2019
In reply to glenn0010:

Koflach plastic boots. Early 1980's I think. I still have unpleasant memories of trying to thaw out my leather Galibier Super Guides in the morning!

Post edited at 13:11
 jethro kiernan 26 Sep 2019
In reply to wilkesley:

The Asolo plastic boots were a revelation when they came out no longer did you have to finish the day crippled and limping, the Nepal’s where the same leap forward when they came out.

In reply to Sean Kelly:

> I would nominate the belay plate. To those of us that had only the shoulder or waist belay I shudder to recall trying to hold a fall, especially without gloves!

Agreed. The belay plate was the biggest advance in safety in the history of rock climbing. Closely followed by the climbing harness.

Post edited at 15:03
 Iamgregp 26 Sep 2019
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Dynamic nylon rope that doesn't get waterlogged and freeze must be the next?

 GrahamD 26 Sep 2019
In reply to glenn0010:

Since I've been climbing ('93) I'd say rock shoes have have improved out of sight.  Everything else was 'OK' by 93.

On the down side I'd say guidebooks are less practical.  Infinitely ore pretty but impossible to comfortably stick in a pocket on a climb. 

 John Kelly 26 Sep 2019
In reply to glenn0010:

Slightly offside but weather forecast

 geordiepie 26 Sep 2019
In reply to glenn0010:

Mobile phones - I now have a gps with mapping, emergency locator, phone and decent camera all in one. 

2
In reply to Iamgregp:

> Dynamic nylon rope that doesn't get waterlogged and freeze must be the next?

Yes, definitely, I'd say. And then, sticky boots, starting with Fires.

 john arran 26 Sep 2019
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> Yes, definitely, I'd say. And then, sticky boots, starting with Fires.

Firés were the only game-changer shoes, presumably since the first ever dedicated climbing shoes (PAs?) replaced plimsolls. All other improvements have been relatively incremental, albeit adding up to a substantially different whole.

If I had to climb in Firés again I might go down a grade or so (although I'd be in relative agony too!) but if I had to climb in anything available before that I might go down more like 3 grades, depending on the route of course.

 DancingOnRock 26 Sep 2019
In reply to McHeath:

Smelly Helly Hanson. It was better than a cotton t-shirt. Probably. 

I remember walking across the top of Kinder in a cotton t-shirt, cotton lumberjack shirt, donkey jacket and PVC raincoat. A most uncomfortable experience.

In reply to john arran:

Yes. The big change was Firés, with the synthetic aircraft tyre 'rubber'. Another, earlier huge improvement was from Blacks' Masters to EBs. (I think that made about a grade of difference)

 Billhook 26 Sep 2019
In reply to glenn0010:

Other than climbing kit:-

Goretex waterproofs & Goretex boots

2
In reply to Billhook:

Agree about belay plates, in about 71 I held a fall using a hip belay, the rope was a number 3 Hawser laid (about 9.5mm ), the burns took weeks to skin over. I bought some ex-army leather gloves for belaying!

How about:

The first Chouinard Stoppers (71 - 72?) which included strong wires in small sizes allowing bomb proof protection in cracks smaller than those suitable for a Moac (which was about Rock 9 size).

Affordable alloy krabs that dramatically reduced the weight of a rack allowing you to carry many more nuts and cams, to the delight of the gear manufacturers.

 EarlyBird 27 Sep 2019
In reply to Trevor Langhorne:

Yep. Truly lightweight karabiners. Sticht plates were common when I started climbing.

 Philb1950 27 Sep 2019
In reply to McHeath:

We had Damart thermal underwear in 1971 for a caving expedition. The Annapurna south face team used it as well

 nastyned 27 Sep 2019
In reply to McHeath:

> I'm only 60 though; there are sure to be stories of hemp ropes and drilled out nuts coming up!

I did try climbing with my dad's drilled out machine nuts on a rope sling once. I didn't manage to place them anywhere!

 ian caton 27 Sep 2019
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I remember it the other way around. Could be wrong. 

 Darron 27 Sep 2019
In reply to geordiepie:

All very good but surely does not compare with actually being able to hold a fall (belay plate) on a rope that didn’t break (;Perlon).

 oldie 28 Sep 2019
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> Agreed. The belay plate was the biggest advance in safety in the history of rock climbing. Closely followed by the climbing harness. <

Disagree slightly.  Given the options of climbing with hemp rope and belay plate vs waist belay (+ gloves) and nylon rope and I'd go with the latter. Fortunately we don't have to make that choice, but holding a fall with a waist belay would probably be even easier today with its frequent runners.

In fact logically the introduction of the karabiner was more important since rope and and belay method are irrelevant to a leader if he hits the deck due to absence of running belays.

Edit. Apologies if not sticking to the OP: "How much has gear improved since you've started buying it?" My climbing doesn't  predate nylon rope!

Post edited at 11:07
In reply to ian caton:

> I remember it the other way around. Could be wrong. 

If you mean harnesses before Sticht plates, yes, you could be right. It's just so hard to remember the exact order.

 Martin Hore 28 Sep 2019
In reply to glenn0010:

My climbing started in the mid-late 60's. That was (just) before kernmantel ropes, harnesses, belay plates, and nuts. There were embryonic rock shoes (PAs, EBs), but I started in pumps and mountain boots. By the mid - late 70's we had proper harnesses, rocks, friends, stick rubber shoes and belay plates. Almost all the major leaps forward in the climbing equipment we use today date from that decade, now 40 years ago. Since then it's been incremental progress - shaving weight here, subtle improvements in design there, but a young trad climber today could embark on a climb using gear from the late 70's and feel familiar with practically everything. Not so I suggest using the gear from the 60's.

Where there have been advances of course is in sport climbing - did I say "advances"?

Martin

baron 28 Sep 2019
In reply to Martin Hore:

I seem to remember that you could still buy nylon hawser laid ropes well into the 1980’s.

Not as good as kernmantle but much cheaper and you didn’t have to worry about buying a sticht plate.

 Rick51 28 Sep 2019
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> If you mean harnesses before Sticht plates, yes, you could be right. It's just so hard to remember the exact order.

I first saw a sticht plate in 1970 but didn't own one till a couple of years later. It was being used on Left Wall, clipped directly into a peg at the bottom so possibly the second wasn't wearing a harness, and it held a fall comfortably.

I definitely had a Whillans harness by 1971, a huge step up from my Troll belt which was a game changer itself compared to the bowline round the waist or no 1 nylon waist loop as I could add gear loops to it so not everything was round the neck.

For me the real game changer was Fires compared to EBs.

In reply to glenn0010:

As a change from the 60s, EBs then Firés, stitch plates, kernmantel double ropes and plastic boots made the biggest difference. Simon Chacal/Barracuda axes big move forward. Koflachs and step-ins made winter climbing lightweight warm and comfortable. HH clothing made for a big improvement in comfort.

In recent times there has been some regression with rock shoes and plastic boots and it is hard to find good kit these days because many of the designs are poor. Too much fashion, complication, re-invention of the wheel without getting the simple basics right.

Belay gloves always a good idea regardless!

DC

 Doug 29 Sep 2019
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

Don't forgot improvements in protection - when I started climbing (mid 70s) Chouinard stoppers & hexes were just appearing in the UK shops to supplement MOACs etc (when did these first appear ? mid/late 60s?) and seemed a real improvement, then Friends arrived in 1978 or 9 & that (at the time) seemed another major improvement.

 GridNorth 29 Sep 2019
In reply to glenn0010:

When I started we had a 60 foot viking rope, a couple of slings and ex WD heavy steel screwgates.  After a few trips we learnt about drilling out the centres of engineering nuts and threading a selection of sizes onto slings.  We bought a couple more steel krabs and this frugal selection probably weighed more than a whole modern rack.  It certainly felt it. We started out with flexible walking boots, referred to as bendies.  PA's were out there somewhere be we never saw any in the UK for many years so on hard walls and slabs we wore black plimsoles from Woolworths. When I did Cenotaph Corner this is what I had but I did by then have a pair of proper climbing boots, Masters I think. I shudder when I think about it

Al

 Flinticus 29 Sep 2019
In reply to glenn0010:

Lightweight tents for me. Sub 2kg 2 man tent. 

In reply to Doug:

My guess at timings. Moac's 1966, hexes on line 1967, first wired nuts (Clog, not Chouinard) 1968, kernmantel ropes in the UK 1969, waist belts 1969, harnesses with leg loops (Whillans) 1970, Sticht belay plates1971.

 Seymore Butt 29 Sep 2019
In reply to glenn0010:

Some climbers have 'all the gear, but no idea' as they say. Then It all becomes quite useless.

Not specifically directed at yourself glenn0010, I would like to add.


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