UKH

I realise this is a common topic but I feel like I’m going insane trying to make sense of it all. 
 

Basically I’m sick of getting my not-dry-treated-not-very-thick rope wet and muddy on ever raining trad trips. So I want to invest in a ‘trad rope’, and so it seems to me this would be the time to get a set of half ropes if I’m gonna go down that route. 
 

My logic being that although I climb almost exclusively in the Peak District (where it might not be necessary?) one day I’ll probably want/need to be able to use doubles and a) won’t own any and b) won’t know how to use them. 
 

But then I’ve seen all kinds of arguments about just doubling up a single and ugh. 
 

My question is would it be completely mad to buy a set of half ropes for use on HVS climbing in the Peak District? Am I going to find that actually we practically always could have used a single, or will it be good to start to learn now? 

Been climbing on 1/2 ropes in the Peak for years and years, I only keep singles for sport climbing.

I suppose the point being that when you are ready to you could buy a second rope of the same diameter or pair it with a partners and you then have your rope for all situations.

No

Really depends on what you climb and how safe you want to be.  

You may find that at some crags you only use one and double it up but at higher crags and with wandering routes your best using both.

TWS

Half ropes won't stop getting wet and muddy in the rain.

Having said that, I'd buy 1 half rope (50m is enough for the peak, but 60 might be useful further afield) and get your partner to buy a matching half. 

If you are only ever to be climbing in the Peak, I'd get a skinny 60m single rope and use it doubled. If you're ever likely do do any longer multipitch stuff elsewhere then I'd get a pair of 60m halfs. 

Cheers,
Jamie

I have a pair of 30's for Peak trad and they work absolutely fine. I can think of only two or three spots where you need 50s (which I also have a pair of), and coiling them up is so quick and easy that I'm sure I get an extra route in each trip out with the reduced faff. You could do a lot worse than buy a pair of 60s so that you have a decent set of ropes for mountain trad, and then rotate them doubled up for Peak stuff. 

This is a good shout. I have a cut down set of doubles - damage reduced them to about 27m - and they are my standard grit ropes now. The ease and speed of coiling up is lovely!

You (the OP) do need to have a work-around if the anchor points are a long way back (if it comes to it you ask the second to untie from one and use that as the anchor rope).

You could, as suggested, buy a lone 60m double rope and fold it in half. This does put maximum wear right in the middle, though, where you can't chop it out without ending up with two ropes! Maybe not a terrible fate. 

Or you could find someone else to buy a pair of 60m with, cut them both in half, and have a pair of 30m each - this gives you the option of having two colours, which is quite helpful.

I nearly always use just one dry treated single 60m half rope for my grit climbs. On stuff that is hard for me I climb off both ends, but mostly off the middle. In places where belays are well back (like Agden) I take a second semi-static rope and long slings to pre-extend the belay to the top of the pitch. On stuff thats easy for me when I want to climb many routes quickly I take a 36m offcut half rope used as a single rope and a much reduced rack, taking alpine coils between routes. 

A long cordelette used to tie in to anchors further back could be an option. 

Cheers,
Jamie

Indeed, or a 240cm sling or two, or (as Offwidth suggests) a length of static rope. 

The OP just needs to appreciate that some sort of extension might be needed with really short ropes, and have the kit and skills to do it. 

Lots of useful tips on this thread.

As someone has already said, unless it is dry treated any rope will get wet and muddy. I'm usually in the cafe if it's raining despite having 60m dry treated half ropes. 

Usually one doubled is enough for grit climbs as long as the belay is not too far back. Hence the good advice regarding long slings etc. Just needs a bit more care as both lengths will probably be the same colour and can lead to 'crossed rope clipping' of protection.

I bought a Beal 50m 9.8mm Karma single which actually handles quite well as a half rope.  

Possibly a good umbrella too?

There are few, but not that many, grit HVS where 2 ropes makes it a lot easier.

On longer Peak limestone routes I definitely prefer 2 ropes.

I used to use halves in the Peak but now find it a lot easier to just use a 30 or 40 metre single, depending on the crag. More durable and with a few 60cm extenders it's a lot less to carry and coil after each route. 

You could do what I've done and just buy every conceivable length, style and combination of rope, then spend half an hour working out what you're taking each time.

I don’t understand this ‘buy a set’ surely you have one and your climbing partner has the second one?

I hear a lot about 50s and 60s but for most uk trad the old style 45m ropes work well and are lighter to carry. Just for grit twin 30s take some beating.

Not all climbers are in exclusive partnerships. I've climbed predominantly with my wife (so there's no cost saving there) and 3 or 4 other climbers.

Cheers, Jamie

I'd have said, and I might be wrong, that two ropes is always preferable for trad. Grit is after all quite grippy and any indirection in the line is likely to make drag. And the shortness of the routes means that for the extension of your rope whilst you clip gear on a single rope is likely to bring you dangerously close to the floor when you fall whilst clipping. Single ropes are for sport only imo, and (in sport only) a clip stick can remove all of the ground fall danger of a single rope.

in response to the OP, I would recommend getting one 60m half rope, which will serve on its own for 99% of peak trad, and also give you all the range necessary (when paired up with your partners 60m half rope) for the long sea cliff pitches that you'll be climbing at Pembroke or Swanage in years to come.

I've got an old 60 half rope cut in half for peak grit and love it, I've yet to find anything that there two short for, however I do just bring my 60s if I think I need longer ropes, I.e. millstone

A pair of 30 mtr ropes is great, if the route is longer, untie and tie a fig 8 on the end to the anchor then clove hitch or alpine butterfly to belay of.

I hate belaying on a doubled rope, just find two ropes the same colour really confusing.

I have climbed in the lakes on 30mtr pairs and really enjoyed, as most Lakeland routes were put up with 100 foot ropes it should not be an issue.

I hate dragging up loads of excess rope,it's a pita, never sure why people have this thing about 60 MTR ropes.

I have a pair of 50m Mammut Phoenix 8.0mm. For such a skinny rope they're really robust. I used them in the Peak for a while and then found it easy when I took them further afield and have used them abroad too. It taught me really well how to properly use half ropes as a climber and a belayer and increases safety and confusion of folding a rope in half.

Plus you can get them for a steal at Needle Sports at the moment too.

Rope recommendation questions are always tricky. Everyone has slightly different views - I don't agree with all of the answers here but it obviously works for them. 

In the longer term, it's dead easy - you go down the route Wanderlust described and have multiple different ropes so you can choose the appropriate length, type and condition for the particular crag, grades and weather.

In the short term, it is far more complicated, as individual climbers' preferences vary massively with experience, confidence and outlook. In theory, double ropes can provide an increased safety margin but in practice the benefits are often overstated. The range of Peak crags climbers frequent can vary considerably, both between the Gritstone and Limestone as well as within the one rock type. Finally, even amongst climbers operating at outwardly similar grades, some will expect to climb literally twice (or three times) as many routes per day as others. 

My overwhelming preference for natural gritstone is a cheap, short single rope. Currently it is just over 27 metres of Edelrid 10mm (cut down from an original 30 metres) but previously I had around 35 metres of Tendon 10.5mm which was great. I've also used a climbing partner's 25 metre single although occasionally that felt slightly awkward for belaying on a couple of the highest Grit buttresses.

The main advantage is that it is the simplest and quickest possible option for climbing with. Additionally, I'm not going to get too upset if it gets worn or damaged. Also, if it does get wet or muddy, washing and drying the shortest possible rope is corresponding quicker and easier. However, I've been climbing for 25 years, rarely climb anything desperate (for me) on natural Grit and for example would expect to climb perhaps ten HVS routes fairly swiftly on a moderate day of cragging at Stanage.

The number of short routes where double ropes are essential is tiny and is vanishingly small in the lower and mid-grades. As such I've never really seen the point in climbing on a half rope doubled over. Equally, I don't see the need for a short pair of half ropes although I do concede that I'd infinitely prefer to climb on a pair of 30 metre half ropes rather than 50s/60s or on an equally long or longer sport climbing rope.

Around 80% of the time, a 30ish metre single is great. The rest of the time I'll be climbing on the biggest cliffs (Millstone, High Tor etc.) and I'll switch to a standard set of 50 metre half ropes.

FWIW I'd consider going with both options.

It's probably worth you going out straight away and buying the cheapest, basic short rope you can find for the days when you just want to get some mileage done on the shorter crags, especially if the weather isn't amazing. That should go a long way to solving your current issues. 

Then perhaps shop around a bit and buy a pair of half ropes. You won't always need them, but as you suggest it's well worth practicing using them (in better weather) if you've aspirations of climbing elsewhere in the future. You can't go too far wrong with 50 metre ropes in the range 8.2mm-8.6mm. Plenty of thinner options are now available, but something on the thicker side will stand up better to occasional use on Gritstone venues like Millstone.

HTH

Doesn’t she buy her own gear?

I'm the 'she' you melon  

Vanishingly small? Not for me when I'm pushing my lead grade and need an edge. On my best hunderd grit leads I've used 3 ropes three times. Wuthering is a famous example: one rope on a runner in the gully, a second to cut any swing back in, with a belayer on the far left,  and one for the pro on the face. One major reason I use  'two' ropes is protecting weaker seconds on a traverse where I'm not confident enough to effectively solo the route. I'd estimate a few percent of bigger grit routes have this. I also like a second rope for:  off line runners; cutting drag: for marginal pro as you can cut shock load to a key better piece on the second rope; for baby bouncers;  to drop a loop for gear you need unexpectedly thats not on your harness; to pull one rope end up if the belay needs more than I expected....its not beginner stuff but its tactics I used from fairly early on.

Thanks this was great. And thanks to everyone else too, the responses have been really helpful. 

I actually have a 30m rope that I'm not too attached too that I'd never considered just using in the peak, (bought it as an indoor workhorse but barely lead inside now) so cheers for opening my eyes to that. 

I'm leaning now towards a set of 50m halfs, though 60 is very tempting. I just probably wont use it doubled it when I have the 30m, and when not using it doubled hauling up the extra rope is half of what i'm trying to get away from. (current rope is 70m)

I think as has been said it's hard when you're trying to buy one/one set of ropes to be optimal for every eventuality, so i guess I'll just stick with the benefit of not hauling up more rope on 90% of my climbs, then in the future will just have to begrudge the other 10%.
 

(also I realise any rope will get wet and muddy, I just don't want it to be my untreated skinny sport rope that I plan to take many falls on. So whatever I buy now will definitely be dry treated) 

(and yes, it would be nice to be in a climbing partnership where going splits were possible) 

I'd defo recommend going for a pair of 60's. It sounds over the top but if you're planning on doing a lot of climbing you'll be cutting 10 metres off the ends every year.

With gritstone climbing being so often close to the ground the advantages of halves can often mean the difference between hitting the floor or not. 

Also there's more to Peak climbing than just grit. One youre climbing on long trad limestone you'll be thankful of those halves  

I wouldn't say vanishingly.  Valkyrie at the Roaches, for instance, if you are at all interested in protecting your second.

I was replying to another poster hence the confusion. 
anyway melon? Does that count as one of my 5 a day?

anyway my earlier post stands. 45m are lighter and work well on U.K. trad, 30m grit half ropes are great and get your tight ass partners, whoever or how many to divi up for their share of the rope

role on some dry weather!

Dry weather? There's been plenty of dry weather!!  

Surely the comment should have been about ‘roll’ rather than ‘role’

Beyond the Peak, half ropes are near essential. They allow you a lot of flexibility, including making the best of gear options and helping you to manage indirect lines. It's not mad to get them at all, so long as you can afford them; the only mad thing is to end up with most of your climbing happening in the Peak! Come up to Cumbria and you'll put your half ropes to good use!

Nonsense. 

Half ropes are just a modern UK orthodoxy. These days, everyone in the UK tends to use them automatically so most people have never even tried using single ropes at numerous venues (or seen anyone else do so). That naturally leads people to assume that half ropes are what you 'need' rather than just being a useful option.

There's loads of advantages, as you go on to detail, but unless routes have compulsory abseil descents it's rare that half ropes go from being useful to being essential.

Climbers in other countries cope perfectly well climbing on a vast array of rock types with single ropes. The preoccupation with using half ropes on small cliffs is a rather peculiar UK obsession.

I'm the first to admit that I go with the flow and tend to do the same as other climbers, so use half ropes as a matter of course in numerous locations. However, most of what I climb throughout the UK could equally well have been done on a single rope and on occasion I've done just that with great success, including fairly recently on routes in Cumbria.

There are good reasons why British climbers like their half ropes, but them being in any way "essential" is not a valid justification for their current ubiquity or necessarily a reason to promote them. 

They are rarely necessary, but grades often tend to assume that half ropes are being used. There's no way wuthering would be E2 for example. 

I'd say the climbers outside the UK cope badly using single ropes.

Take the USA.

Climbers pointlessly towing tag lines to pull abseils down with. A big fraction of the weight without any of the benefits.

Go to places like Red Rocks and you will see gratuitous bolts placed as the gear is too far off route or wandering to protect with a single rope.

I think that it is a mistake to equate coping reasonably well to being the better option.

For (most) Peak grit, I tended to use a single 30m 10mm.

Never found much need for twin ropes on (most) grit.

For(most) peak grit, I tend to use a 50m half rope tying in to both ends to lead.

Often find double ropes an advantage or moderately essential.

When I started out, on Stanage, there were only single ropes available.  My first one was a Viking hawser laid nylon one.  I don't recall what length it was but quite often it was not long enough.  Venues like Millstone often required you to walk well back to the fence posts and no amount of slings could manage that.  We quite often just planted ourselves firmly in the grass and hoped for the best.  I have nightmares thinking about it   When we discovered half ropes we adopted them very quickly and if I'm honest I've never really seriously considered using a single except on sport.

Al

Twin ropes way too much faff on most gritstone edge routes.

Do you mean half?

Better than too much drag, impeding progress, pulling you off balance and lifting runners out. I wouldn't like to get on The Tippler (E1 5b) with just 1 rope, for example

Thanks for your sterling response. I did say 'near essential'. I.e. short of essential but... well... with loads of advantages. I appreciate your clarification of the matter.

I bought an Edelrid 80m swift pro dry, 8.9mm, for about £130 from Outside. Chopped in in half. Perfect for everything on Grit. They get used so much and takes wear away from my thinner 60m half ropes. Really good to take one for a scrambling rope too. 

haha!  

Well that's bleeding obvious. If you've a specific route in mind, then twins may be a good choice.

.. In the same way you wouldn't carry huge cams/hex's on every route or a slab with micro wires for gear. Choose the right kit for the job.

Your reply only makes sense if you mean double rather than twin rope technique.

Equally, by only bringing a single rope, you are either going to avoid great routes that traverse a bit (or a lot) or have a miserable time on them.

Having the second rope to drop down a loop for extra gear is an underrated benefit of the system. I sent down for my partner's Totems on Scoop Connection (E2 5b) the other day to back up the nut, as my Dragons were too wide for the pocket round to the right. Made a questionable gear nest in to a rather bomber one!

That route has an amazing crux sequence.

If I thought I 'might' need double ropes for the day I'd take them as well as a 30m x 10mm (which packs up real small). Not exactly a long walk into Stanage (or most other of the busy grit edge) is it!

Then you can enjoy the simplicity of single rope on most of the routes you do in the day and then break out the doubles when you actually need them. Simples.

Crux sequence? It was just intimidating walking. 

I couldn't figure out which bit was the crux.. I climbed most of it in the most inefficient manner possible! Going off the comments I thought 'ledge' meant the arete rest ledge, but then it took a while to figure out how to get established on the 'walking' ledge so maybe it was that bit..?

It's such a cool, unusual route, and doesn't seem to get climbed much. I'd like to go back and try it as a hand traverse instead of the foot traverse too. 

The Viking hawser laid were 120ft (that’s feet). I started most of my climbing on Millstone, free and pegging. To belay we would tie off the end of the rope to a post then walk back to the edge and tie into whatever loop you could put into the rope. At Harecliff.  (Agden) you tended to slither back to the edge on the grass.