UKH

Half nuts have an offset shape. Is there any point having both types of wires on your rack, or could you ditch one set of conventional wires instead of doubling up and ditch the offsets at the same time?

In reply to Max factor:

I have a set of normal and a set of superlight/offsets. The normal (Wallnuts) are on two krabs with overlapping sizes (1-7, 4-11) plus and krab of WC superlight (1-6) and WC superlight offset (5-10). Does me for most uses.

In reply to Max factor:

I only carry superlight offsets now, two sets. I find the offset shape of the WC ones to be better than DMM Offsets and that the "normal" placement sits really well in weird crozzly rock where I would have used DMM Wallnuts before. The size of the bunch is really small, they are light and I just don't feel the need for anything else on the climbing I do. That said, the one caveat is they are not as strong...

In reply to Max factor: I like both - I like the strengh of the offsets, and superlights go where the larger ones won't. That and a set of normal rocks doesn't strike me as excessive

In reply to wbo2:

Hmm still a bit confused. There seem to be DMM halfnuts, Wild country superlight rocks in sizes 1-7 and WC superlight offset nuts in the bigger sizes. Are these basically the same, because as far as I can tell from photos the DMM halfnuts have an offset shape?

I need to get down a gear shop!

In reply to Max factor:

I would say the DMM is more or a standard flared shape than a true offset. The SL offset rocks are closer to a DMM Offset than the DMM half nuts. That said, I don't think it will make much difference in practice. The WC superlights are very similar to the small Halfnuts, basically because you can produce them with the offset shape because of the wire hole. 

In reply to Max factor:

My personal experience has been that a set of dmm alloy offsets and dmm brass offsets generally fit better than superlights and halfnuts. I'll occasionally carry the wc offsets and superlights, but generally only when theres a good chance I wont need many nuts at all (as they fit like regular nuts sideways). I wont carry them as my go-to offsets or micros. 

Have a look at Jez's youtube channel, JB Mountain Skills. He does a decent review of them from memory. 

In reply to PaulJepson:

I've been looking at this the last few days and genuinely pondering what makes an offset different to a flared nut. So looking closely at the Superlight offsets, one facet is parallel to the wire, with all the angle occurring on the other face. The thing that baffles me a bit is how this is different to the flared nut in the sense that the major difference is the wire orientation. If you turn the flared nut so the facets are placed the same way, other than the wire poking in a different direction, I can't really see any difference. So the question is, does the wire being in a different orientation actually make a difference to placement, or is it just that we haven't clocked there's no difference? A bit of geometric placebo effect... 

In reply to beardy mike:

Hadn't thought about that! I wonder if they would act differently under load? 

I cant have a look at them to compare but dont the wild country offsets have a less aggressive taper than the dmm alloy offsets? I feel like when you come across a noticeably offset placement, where a normal nut would be a bit shonky, that dmm alloys work well. I feel like WC offsets may work well in general placements where one would usually opt for a standard nut/rock. I never had confidence in WC offsets in particularly offset placements but that could be down to lack of practice. I can definitely see the rationale in replacing your regular nuts with the WC ones.

I have used the WC ones on cornish granite and I did find that they were quite confidence-inspiring there (possibly because the chunkier crystals got stuck in the open sides, so the lack of surface-contact wasnt as noticable). 

In reply to PaulJepson:

As far as I can tell, it more or less makes the top and the bottom of the nut intersect the other facets of the nut at a different angle,  but essentially, geometrically speaking, I'm not sure theres much difference. I know what you mean about the lack of contact, but that's not something I've found. For me they seem to work well even on smooth grained Lime which is what I climb on most. I think for me the biggest boon is that the ratio of the overall nut to rock foot print is large compared to the thickness which IMO seems to make them sit well. As I said above, I actually prefer the shape to a standard offset, but maybe that's just me? I have found they nestle extremely well into the flared, water worn pods you get at cheddar.

In reply to beardy mike:

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet, it's difficult   to describe  these subtle differences by word alone.

Standard Walnuts and Rocks are not handed on the side taper only on the extruded shape.

The same applies  to the original WC half nut and the dmm halfnut.

Offset superlight and dmm/hb offsets  are handed in both orientations.

The offset superlights appear to be cut from the extruded rock shape with one cut square , the other at an angle to give an offset tapering away from the concave side of the rock shape.

The wc half nut  and dmm halfnut have  the side taper with both cuts at an angle . The side taper goes in different directions between makes.

Wonder if there is a parallel universe where all the scraps get made into nuts with the other hand?

Edit. removed a comment after checking dmm website.

In reply to Max factor:

Personally, I prefer a mix of wallnuts and rocks, alloy offsets and just a few half nuts (2 - 4) for really awkward shallow placements. I got the superlight offsets in sizes 5 and 6 and didn't feel they seated very well. For Lakes and Wales trad, I'd rather take the strength over a little weight, and I also think the old HB alloy offset design is more complex and varied and therefore sits better than the superlights. Maybe that's just me!

P.s. maybe rock type and pitch length are important variables re: original post

In reply to C Witter:

It's funny, I had the original HB alloy offsets and for some reason I sold them and replaced them with Metolius curve nuts, I think on the strength of their Astronuts which IMHO are the single best small wire on the market. But rhe curves weren't as good and I really missed the HBs but by that point Hugh was gone and they folded, with ISC and Denny Moorhouse taking the Bangor site and selling/passing on rhe design to DMM. I got some and climbed with them for years, and  they made changes which I felt made them inferior to the originals. They were less blocky and more smoothly finished, and whilst up to the red is good, I barely use Dark grey upwards. Funny though as maybe the WC shape for me is closer in some ways to the originals? But I've not thought about that before... perception maybe? We're getting down to a pretty detailed level here! 

That said, having compared end to end a DMM offset with a SL rock, I think the SL has maybe 2 degrees less flare than the DMM, so maybe there's something in what you say? It's pretty subtle but it's there.

All this said, I feel the offsets of any variety are vastly superior to the end placements of a standard nut, whose surface area ratio is IMO the wrong way round, ie small for a less secure placement. I hardly ever placed them like that, especially the old DMM forged walnuts. 

In reply to Max factor:

DMM Alloy Offsets are fantastic.

I usually combine with a set of Wallnuts (1-11) and a half set of Rocks (3-7).

In reply to beardy mike:

Yes... microdetail... but, somehow it all plays out in the feel!

I also dispense with the largest DMM alloy because I feel at that size of crack I can probably get a conventional nut in, though the grey gets used regularly. The gold, on the otherhand, is used almost every pitch. And maybe it's on the strength of my love for that gold alloy offset that I can't think of leaving the others behind. Perhaps this confirms that our rack choices are only 45% science and the rest is a heady mixture of fear, superstitions and myth.

In reply to C Witter:

The most factually correct sentence in the thread!

In reply to C Witter:

Yeah the gold is the best of the lot, followed by the red. As I say, I barely used the larger ones, whereas I go use the larger SL's... go figure...

In reply to beardy mike:

I've still got some orignal HB offsets on my rack along with the original DMM versions (and even those are now over 14 years old! https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/climbing/protection/dmm_alloy_offsets-1066 ) but I think the two versions are identical. I thought DMM just bought the moulds straight from HB, so they are basically the same?

In reply to TobyA:

I think the DMM ones did change along the way and got more rounded. I have a mish-mash of older and newer anodised ones and some are definitely more angular than the others.  

In reply to TobyA:

Yeah as Paul says, the edges all got rounder and more bubble like.

In reply to beardy mike:

When did the design changes happen? I think I bought one replacement for one of the original review ones from 2008, but that might have been 5 or 6 years ago now. But I'm sure that was a like for like replacement. Could the changes have been in the last 5 years?

In reply to TobyA:

Maybe my memory is failing me - take some pics of the old ones you have? Again, maybe all of this is just down to feelings and illusions? I mean hell - it's been a LOOOONG time since I held some of those original hallowed (by me) nuts...

In reply to C Witter:

The reason why I started the post is to rid myself of the encumberance of too much gear. I got along fine with a couple sets of wires. Then came offsets which are pretty useful, and so on, and for a lot of partners treat new gear options as additive rather than mutually exclusive. I'm pretty sure halfnuts or WC superlight offsets have a place in an optimal lightweight rack, just not sure what the sweet spot is yet. 

In reply to Max factor:

I think it depends a lot on rock type and pitch length... beyond that, let me know if you find the secret!

My only "secrets" are: I don't carry doubles in biggest wires; I don't bother with complete sets if I don't use all of the set regularly; I mix all the wires together rather than carrying sets on crabs, e.g. yellow offset and yellow half nut are next to conventional no.4.