Fleece vs Pile

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 AndyC 25 Dec 2010
A recent BMC mag. (Summit60) featured Doug Scott's Javlin jacket from the '75 Everest SW face Expedition. As worn for a bivi above the Hilary Step!

Reminded me of the pre-fleece era when we used fibre pile gear from companies like Javlin, North Cape, TOG-24 and probably a few others I've forgotten.

IMO, for warmth and low weight, fibre pile beats fleece hands down? OK, you definitely need a windproof shell if there's a breeze but otherwise it works really well. Not as stylish as fleece, but a well shaggy pile jacket could be worn down the pub with a certain amount of pride!

Problem is you can't get it any more, except from work-wear companies like Wenaas in Norway, and their stuff lacks pockets and other refinements. I tried to persuade PHD to recreate a line of technical pile clothing but got no response.

Anybody else think there could still be a market for fibre pile clothing? I'd buy it if they made it!

Andy
 FrankBooth 25 Dec 2010
In reply to AndyUKC:
doesnt a buffalo/montane pile/pertex top fulfill this role (and arguably better)?
 ScraggyGoat 25 Dec 2010
In reply to AndyUKC:

Helly Hansen still make they're classic pile jackets and sallies, but as you say your more likely to find then in work wear stores.
 OMR 25 Dec 2010
In reply to FrankBooth: Agreed. Pile was really warm, but anything over 1mph of breeze and it blew straight through!
Rat know-all 25 Dec 2010
In reply to OMR:
Can't say I've worn it but fleece is not exactly the most windproof thing in the world.
In reply to AndyUKC: I've been collecting retro gear of late and recently aquired a Northcape pile jacket which I think must be about 30 years old. It looks absolutely fantastic but what surprises me most was how warm it is, a brilliant bit of kit
 Jiffy 25 Dec 2010
In reply to AndyUKC:

Is the Rab Double Pile jacket the same sort of pile you're talking about?

http://rab.uk.com/clothing/fleece/double_pile_jackets---40/
 Siward 26 Dec 2010
In reply to Jiffy: Agree, my old, classic, helly pile jacket still tends regularly to find its way onto my body despite the huge choice of alternatives. Pile ain't supposed to be windproof its for warmth.
OP AndyC 26 Dec 2010
In reply to FrankBooth:
> (In reply to AndyUKC)
> doesnt a buffalo/montane pile/pertex top fulfill this role (and arguably better)?

Yes and no, I guess. Have never used Buffalo but I have some 10 year old Montane salopettes (pile and fleece under Pertex shell) which are excellent for, say, 6000 - 7000m use. But there are occasions where I want a more substantial shell, eg. Goretex, and then the Pertex on the Montane gear is just extra weight.

A simple fibre pile layer to go under the GTX would be ideal, lighter and warmer than fleece.
Lusk 26 Dec 2010
In reply to AndyUKC:

Look here...http://www.hellyhansen-workwear.com/buy-online/fiberpile-workwear/w-pile-si...
Some good (cheapish) looking gear from HH Workwear.
OP AndyC 26 Dec 2010
In reply to Jiffy:
> (In reply to AndyUKC)
>
> Is the Rab Double Pile jacket the same sort of pile you're talking about?
>
> http://rab.uk.com/clothing/fleece/double_pile_jackets---40/

This could have possibilities - but 900g is a lot heavier than I'd expect in an old school pile jacket... my warm but tatty Wenaas jacket is just over 400g.

I'd like to see a reversion to the old days where functionality came before style. (And black was not an option )
OP AndyC 26 Dec 2010
In reply to Lusk:

> Look here...http://www.hellyhansen-workwear.com/buy-online/fiberpile-workwear/w-pile-si...
> Some good (cheapish) looking gear from HH Workwear.

Yeah! We sometimes get HH gear at work but it is cheap and designed for wearing under coveralls. No pockets and stuff. Also, I have never been a big fan of the HH pile, the stuff used by Javlin and North Cape was more comfortable and had a higher snuggle factor.
 Fraser 26 Dec 2010
In reply to AndyUKC:

My old Javlin from the 70s was the warmest 'fleece-type' top I've ever worn. Might be due to the tighter fit compared to modern fleeces but the pile itself always felt incredibly warm.
 Jim Fraser 27 Dec 2010
In reply to AndyUKC:

Proud owner of a North Cape Gasherbrum. Excellent kit.
 David Hooper 27 Dec 2010
In reply to AndyUKC:
Patagonia still make pile/shaggy fleece stuff.
 Flashy 28 Dec 2010
In reply to FrankBooth:
> (In reply to AndyUKC)
> doesnt a buffalo/montane pile/pertex top fulfill this role (and arguably better)?

Well yes, they do the same job in that they're made of pile. However, they have an additional pertex shell so not nearly as breathable as pile alone. If you want to beef it up massively then just stick a thin pertex shell on top. One of Montane's running windproofs for example (if they still make them).

 KellyKettle 28 Dec 2010
In reply to AndyUKC: In a related note, where would one come by bulk fiberpile fabric these days? All of the suppliers I normally get fabric and components for outdoor gear from don't seem to stock it.

I should add that I'm a proud owner of a HH pile smock thats a good 15 years older than I am and shows every sign of surviving long enough for me too to get too fat and squirrel it away to pass on to another generation. Toasty warm it is too.
In reply to AndyUKC:

I've still got my Fibre Pile Salopettes made by Ice Warrior when they were in Workington. They've got pertex type fabric over the knees and seat area. Kept me nice and toasty on a few Lakes winter routes.

For a while they were standard winter wear amongst West Cumbrian Scaffolders.
OP AndyC 29 Dec 2010
In reply to KellyKettle:
> (In reply to AndyUKC) In a related note, where would one come by bulk fiberpile fabric these days? All of the suppliers I normally get fabric and components for outdoor gear from don't seem to stock it.
>

Found this link

http://www.profabrics.co.uk/snap_product_search.php?search=true&categor...

Any colour you want as long as it's black or khaki!
 Steve John B 29 Dec 2010
In reply to AndyUKC:

>
> I'd like to see a reversion to the old days where functionality came before style. (And black was not an option )

This certainly isn't black!

http://shop.hellyhansen.com/GB/item/50656/?partner=6085&t_type=src&...
OP AndyC 29 Dec 2010
In reply to AndyUKC:

I started this thread out of idle curiosity and because the BMC article reminded me how good pile clothing was compared to modern fleece. It's been interesting to find out that I am not the only one! In fact, digging around more I've found more forums where this topic has been discussed. And there's maybe even a hint about it on the Needlesports website:

http://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Technical-Clothing/Insulation/Fleece

Is there a gear manufacturer out there willing to take a break from developing the latest and greatest in high-tech superfluity with added useless features? A range of retro gear that just does what it says on the tin please!


By the way... anyone remember an attempt to make a fibre pile sleeping bag back in the 70s/80s? I can't remember what they were called now (Eskimo?). I borrowed one from a mate once, but you had to buy them to fit your size, and he was 5ft nothing and I am over 6ft... not much fun.
OP AndyC 29 Dec 2010
In reply to Steve John B:

Nice... you too can look like a Smurf

And forget not the wise words of George A Strong:

He killed the noble Mudjokivis.
Of the skin he made him mittens,
Made them with the fur side inside,
Made them with the skin side outside.
He, to get the warm side inside,
Put the inside skin side outside;
He to get the cold side outside
Put the warm side fur side inside.
That’s why he put the fur side inside,
Why he put the skin side outside,
Why he turned them inside outside.

 lithos 29 Dec 2010
In reply to AndyUKC:


got HH pile pullover - great, HH salopettes (too small now!) and HH jacket,
bit worn now. got a pile sleeping bag liner which i still regularly use,
really comfy/snuggly



 KellyKettle 29 Dec 2010
In reply to AndyUKC: Ta for that, I've come by a couple of meters of a vivid purple pile; But if my little project works out I can see me wanting a lot more of the fluffy stuff.
 iksander 29 Dec 2010
In reply to AndyUKC: Malden's thermalpro fleece is very much like pile in some incarnations - bulky and with nonexistent wind resistance. Toasty under a shell though, in fact too hot for active use in most UK weather I'd say
singers 29 Dec 2010
In reply to AndyUKC:
for warmth fibre pile defintely beats fleece for warmth. But, it depends on the pile you use. Javlin had a headstart on all of the other UK manufacturers by being first to market but it was Graham Singleton who found the best manufacturer who had the best mix of polyester and acrylic and it had a coating on the back to stop it pilling. He also got the deepest pile. The other thing they did was to make the original Javlin Jacket fairly tight fitting but plenty of movement in the under arm. They also flame bonded nylon cloth with foam on to the back of the fibre-pile so again a lot more insulated. It wasn't wind-proof but you'd lose the flexibility if you bonded something else on to it.

The one Doug used for Everest was one of the first piles they used and was rapidly superseded thanks to Doug's feedback. As well as Mick Burke, Don Morrison, Jeff Birtles and others..

I took my Javlin River Jacket to the Lakes on the 4th Dec. It's fibre pile with waterproof Nylon outer and detachable hood. I put that on when we camped off the first Crinkle, looking out over Isle of Man. As someone says on here, the snuggly feeling you get from fibre pile is like nothing else!

should we bring the original Javlin Jacket and Belay Jacket back??
OP AndyC 30 Dec 2010
In reply to singers:
> (In reply to AndyUKC)
>
> should we bring the original Javlin Jacket and Belay Jacket back??

If you make it, I will buy it! And salopettes too!

Agreed the laminated jackets were better - I had the North Cape version with the soft nylon outer, nice, although eventually the laminate peeled off. The Javlin jackets with the reinforced shoulders and elbows looked great too, although I never owned one.
singers 30 Dec 2010
In reply to AndyUKC:
yeh the salopettes were popular too...

I used to ski in those when I was a kid, bloody warm.

Only thing is that fibre pile is a bit bulkier than polartec and pertex which it's competing with. Twice the size and weight. But, thanks to everything else being downsized nowadays a deep-pile jacket can replace a belay jacket and a duvet. Stick em in a compression bag and they squeeze down ok...

I've been tempted by a Mountain Equipment Fitzroy or a Berghaus Combust and would love to try them but I'm pretty sure they will not compare with the immediate warmth and snuggle factor you get with pile.

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