Dyneema sling - rookie mistake!

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 Blue Ridge 15 Mar 2023

Hi everyone, 

So I’m just starting to step into the mountaineering side of hillwalking and also indoor climbing, and as such I’m starting to collect gear.

I just purchased my first dyneema sling for building belay anchors. I ordered 2.4m thinking the measurement was stated in circumference but now that it has just arrived I realise my mistake. It’s actually a length measurement and boy is this thing huge! 

My question is: Should I return it for a 1.2m or keep it and also buy a 1.2m? Have you ever been building a belay anchor and wished you’d had a 2.4m length sling? Also, should I consider buying a 60cm sling as well?

Many thanks in advance for your advice!

I’m nearly sorted for gear. I did a winter mountaineering course in the northern corries and loved it! Now just to find a partner who’s an experienced lead climber and wouldn’t mind taking me on as a second. 

1
 jezb1 15 Mar 2023
In reply to Blue Ridge:

A lot of people like a 240cm on their harness for belay building, I certainly do. Rare for me to trad climb without it.

They can be a bit faffy in winter when it’s blowing a gale and you can’t feel your fingers.

I’d keep it.

Post edited at 23:00
 Fiona Reid 15 Mar 2023
In reply to Blue Ridge:

Personally, I'd keep it and get a 120cm one too. 

Sometimes a 120cm isn't big enough for a large boulder or tree whereas the 240cm will go round much more.  

If you ever end up abseiling from stakes or where anchors aren't really close the 240cm can  make life much easier to get the anchors equalised.

2
 pec 15 Mar 2023
In reply to Blue Ridge:

I've never carried one in the nearly 40 years I've been climbing and nobody I've ever climbed with has carried one in that time either. If you want to set up top ropes at gritstone crags I suppose they could be useful but if a 120 sling isn't long enough to set up a belay I just use the spare rope. I'm sure if you've got one you could find times to use it and conclude it's useful but you never actually need one so to me it's not worth the faff required to unravel it and tie it up again afterwards.

62
 Jamie Wakeham 15 Mar 2023
In reply to pec:

> I've never carried one in the nearly 40 years I've been climbing and nobody I've ever climbed with has carried one in that time either. 

Do you never climb multipitch as the only leader?  A 240cm sling is by far the quickest way to rig the belay in that scenario.

1
In reply to Blue Ridge:

As others have said it's probably worth keeping it because they're handy in lots of situations. However, I suspect it's a moot point because, for very good reasons, most reputable retailers won't take returns of critical safety gear unless it's faulty.

1
In reply to pancakeandchips:

> ...suspect it's a moot point because, for very good reasons, most reputable retailers won't take returns of critical safety gear unless it's faulty.

True if bought in store, but the OP 'ordered' the sling so Distance Selling Regulations probably apply. 

 Andypeak 16 Mar 2023
In reply to Blue Ridge:

I'd keep it. I always carry one and use it in 80% of my belays.

 Paul Sagar 16 Mar 2023
In reply to Blue Ridge:

It may look big now, but when you start building three-point belays you'll see how quickly sling runs out and how a 120 often isn't enough if you want to create an equalised masterpoint e.g. for belaying in guide mode if or your second is going to be seconding the next pitch as well. I have two, and always have at least one on my harness when climbing trad. Keep!

2
 gethin_allen 16 Mar 2023
In reply to Blue Ridge:

They're pretty useful IMO, especially if you are climbing multi pitch routes but one person wants to lead the lot / you don't want to swing leads. 

In reply to Blue Ridge:

Keep it. Lots of trees are bigger than 120cm.

 mik82 16 Mar 2023
In reply to Blue Ridge:

Keep it. As above it's useful for building a quick equalised anchor, or for large boulders/trees.

In reply to Blue Ridge:

 Should I return it?

I'd be very surprised if a retailer would accept a return on a safety item such as a sling. Keep it, a useful thing to have on your harness.

3
 Cake 16 Mar 2023
In reply to Blue Ridge:

Regarding 60cm slings, they are incredibly useful on mountain trad routes where the route wanders around because you can make a long quickdraw from them, known as slingdraws or alpine draws (Google it). I always want at least three on a mountain route.

They are too short for building a multi directional belay with.

 PaulJepson 16 Mar 2023
In reply to Blue Ridge:

For single pitch I dont usually bother with a 240 (unless I know I will need it- there are a few routes with big threads or trees where only a 240 will do). I often carry one for multipitch though. As others have said, if you're block leading they are by far the easiest and most efficient way to set up a belay (like the americans cordalette). Your second can arrive, clip into the masterpoint, hand over gear, restack the rope, and away you go.

Depends what sort of climbing you'll be doing. 

1
 CantClimbTom 16 Mar 2023
In reply to Blue Ridge:

Your 240 can be looped  in half to become a 120  Keep it

 fred99 16 Mar 2023
In reply to Blue Ridge:

I couldn't possibly count the number of times I've used a sling that length - it must run into the hundreds.

You have to remember that when you put a sling around a tree or boulder, you can't have it tight - as that creates a load at nearly 90 degrees to the sling. When you use a longer sling the angle - and hence stress load - becomes much less. Far safer.

1
 Root1 16 Mar 2023
In reply to Blue Ridge:

Always be aware that although extremely strong, dyneema will not take a shock loading. if you were attached to a belay by a short dyneema sling and climbed say 30cms above it to adjust the belay, then accidentally fell onto it, it could break, with catastrophic results. one to be aware of if just starting out.   

17
 oldie 16 Mar 2023
In reply to pec:

> I've never carried one in the nearly 40 years I've been climbing and nobody I've ever climbed with has carried one in that time either. If you want to set up top ropes at gritstone crags I suppose they could be useful but if a 120 sling isn't long enough to set up a belay I just use the spare rope. I'm sure if you've got one you could find times to use it and conclude it's useful but you never actually need one so to me it's not worth the faff required to unravel it and tie it up again afterwards. <

Wow, your post has a surprising number of downvotes (35 as I post). Perhaps people think its particularly useful for a beginner to have one. I usually have 2-3 120cm slings plus the rope and find anything longer a pain to carry and less versatile, being mainly for belay points. Maybe I'm just out of touch but I don't imagine my anchors are any less safe because of it. Out of interest I must remember to see how many others take and use long slings, cordelettes etc. I suppose its location dependent too.

Post edited at 11:41
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OP Blue Ridge 16 Mar 2023

Thank you everyone for the wealth of information and advice! This UKC community seems legit!

I’ll keep the 240 now I think, and purchase one of 120 and 60 to get me started.

My initial goals are to use rope on trickier scramble with exposure instead of vertical climbing (for now). I imagine that anyone I find to go with me will have more experience than myself (and more gear) but Im thinking harness, rope, belay, and slings will get me going.

Another question: Is it safe to trust a single sling around a solid boulder as an anchor? I’ve noticed YouTube tutorials and other sources that use several anchor points when utilising cams and nuts etc, but that seems to be for proper climbing where maybe you’re less likely to find a boulder anchor halfway up a wall.

A single sling around a boulder is what I learned with the instructor on my winter mountaineering course earlier this season. We weren’t vertical climbing. It was a grade 1 (summer) scramble with verglas and exposure. We also later did snow bollard anchors, which was fun!

 Howard J 16 Mar 2023
In reply to Blue Ridge:

120 and 60 cm slings are more useful.  If you're mainly thinking of mountaineering and protecting scrambling terrain rather than proper rock climbs I'd go for 120 cm which can more easily be put over spikes or made into threads.  If you'll be carrying nuts then 60cm can be useful to extend them where a normal quickdraw is too short.

However , a long sling also has its place. They're great for equalised belays or lassooing large boulders or trees.  You can always shorten a long sling by doubling it up but you can't lengthen one which is too short, and larks-footing slings together is said to considerably weaken them.  

I'd say keep it, and buy some shorter ones as well. They're not that expensive compared with a lot of gear.

2
 jezb1 16 Mar 2023
In reply to Blue Ridge:

A single point anchor video I did some time ago:  youtube.com/watch?v=cwXvAWfjcdw&

Short answer, yes single points can be safe, big boulders, trees, that kind of thing. 

 LastBoyScout 16 Mar 2023
In reply to Ron Rees Davies:

> True if bought in store, but the OP 'ordered' the sling so Distance Selling Regulations probably apply. 

No - there are exemptions for certain items, where safety or hygiene (etc) is a consideration.

Ordered a climbing harness last year for my daughter - selected to "collect from store", as you can return if it hasn't left the store. Was glad I did, as it didn't fit her.

2
 LastBoyScout 16 Mar 2023
In reply to Blue Ridge:

Funnily enough, they used to be sold by the circumference, but then that changed to length.

I've got a couple of 240cm slings - I used to do quite a lot of instructing and they're handy for rigging top ropes quickly, especially if it's large boulders or trees back from the edge.

Worth keeping for rigging belays, as others have said - you'd only really use it as a runner if you're desperate. Personally, I probably wouldn't carry it, unless I thought route might need it.

You won't be able to return it, anyway, as it's safety gear.

1
 LastBoyScout 16 Mar 2023
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

> Rule I was always taught was mark each piece out of 10 and make your setup add to at least 15.

Interesting - I've also seen this as mark each piece out of 5 and make sure you total at least 11, which essentially means you need a minimum of 3 bits of gear, even if 2 are bomber. This flavour might be more intended at covering yourself when instructing, as I heard it on an assessment course.

You seem to have deleted your post as I was typing this one.

2
 deepsoup 16 Mar 2023
In reply to Root1:

> Always be aware that although extremely strong, dyneema will not take a shock loading. if you were attached to a belay by a short dyneema sling and climbed say 30cms above it to adjust the belay, then accidentally fell onto it, it could break, with catastrophic results. one to be aware of if just starting out.   

Not really, this is a bit of a misunderstanding and an oversimplification.

You can break dyneema slings with shock loads produced by dropping rigid weights, because they're very un-stretchy and there's no shock-absorption in the system.  A very sudden stop = a very large 'impact' force.

When the weight that you're dropping is a soft squashy human body in a harness however there is shock absorption in the system - when the sling pulls tight the body changes shape so that the overall deceleration of its centre of mass is spread out over time.

Depending on how far you fall that might hurt.  A bit, or a lot, and it could be life-threatening.  So the advice never to fall on a dyneema sling is sound. (For example by clipping the chains at the top of a sport route with a dyneema 'cow tail' and then climbing up so it's slack into a position where you might slip). 

But unless the sling has a knot in it, it's larksfooted around another sling or in some other way has its strength compromised, you absolutely will not break a dyneema sling that way.  (But you could break your body, so the 'catastrophic results' remain.)

 Cheese Monkey 16 Mar 2023
In reply to Blue Ridge:

For multipitch I carry 1x240, 3x120 and 3x60cm slings. The 60s set up as slingdraws or whatever they're called. Pretty much covers everything I've ever come across.

Setting up belays with only the rope can be a real faff. I usually use a combination of all the techniques depending on the belay boiled down into whatever is quickest (while being safe). 

Some people carry 4m slings...

 deepsoup 16 Mar 2023
In reply to Blue Ridge:

> My question is: Should I return it for a 1.2m or keep it and also buy a 1.2m?

I'd say you may as well keep it.  120cm slings are undoubtedly more useful, but it'll come in handy eventually.

As a historical note, back in the day when slings were usually specced in imperial lengths your assumption would have been correct - because people generally bought tape and tied the ends together to make their own.  So an 8-foot sling was tied with about 8 feet of tape, and ended up with a working length of about 4 feet.  (ie: 120cm)

OP Blue Ridge 16 Mar 2023
In reply to jezb1:

That’s brilliant, thank you!

OP Blue Ridge 16 Mar 2023
In reply to LastBoyScout:

I’m still waiting on my Mammut 4 Slide harness to arrive and that makes me a bit nervous now!

However, I did go to Tiso to try on first. The M-XL did fit, but the double backs were pulled all of the way in while wearing just a T-shirt. I felt just secure enough, but I didn’t like that it was pulled hard to the smallest setting. I ordered the only other size they offered, a XS-M, which Tiso didn’t have. Direct from Mammut for £60 with the belay, carabiner, chalk bag package! 

 PaulJepson 16 Mar 2023
In reply to Blue Ridge:

With anchors, there is a lot of judgement involved and the old clichés do have their place. 

You may hear the term 'SERENE' as an aim for all anchors. This stands for Strong, Equalized, Redundant, Efficient, (No) Extension. 

With your question about using a single anchor point, the headings you want to look at are 'Redundant' and 'Efficient'. A single anchor point is not redundant and there is always the danger that something will go wrong (you forget to clip the rope, the sling gets cut on a sharp edge, the boulder rocks and releases the sling underneath it - as I believed has happened on Heaven Crack at Stanage). The other side of the coin is that if it's a massive tree or boulder which you're sure isn't going anywhere, are you wasting your time by backing it up? at a single-pitch crag it might not matter but in winter in the mountains, efficiency and not wasting time = safety. Backing up every bomber anchor may decrease the risk of anchor failure but over the course of a route may mean you are on the route for an hour longer. An hour longer of being exposed to the potential of bad weather, rockfall, other risks involved in climbing. Only your own judgement, which comes with time and experience, can decide what the right thing to do is. 

Generally I always err on the side of caution but if I have 2 absolute bomber pieces, I'm probably not going to scrabble around to find a third. If it's a boulder or a thread and there is another easily-placed piece, I probably will back it up, if only to spread the load between 2 ropes on 2 points. If it's a tree and I have spare slings, I'll probably chuck another around it as it takes no time at all. 

The other cliché is giving the parts of the anchor a mark that needs to add up to a total. One that makes the most sense to me is a mark out of 5 with a desired anchor total of 10. That means if you have 2 absolute sinkers then that's all you need. If there is any doubt about either of your 2 bits, you need at least 1 more. Typically, the exception with this system is that BFTs (big f'ing trees) or BFRs (Big f'ing rocks) get a mark of 10 outright. 

2
 midgen 16 Mar 2023
In reply to LastBoyScout:

> You won't be able to return it, anyway, as it's safety gear.

I've ordered and returned safety gear no problem when bought online. Harness that was the wrong size, most recently.

 pec 17 Mar 2023
In reply to oldie:

> Wow, your post has a surprising number of downvotes (35 as I post).  etc.

Indeed!

Like I said, in nearly 40 years I've climbed with a lot of people and not one has carried a 240 sling so I'm not alone and clearly they aren't "essential" even if some people find them desireable.

3
 Jon Read 17 Mar 2023
In reply to pec:

It's perhaps a generational thing. Unless you are in the habit of creating master points and belaying directly off the belay, you're not really going to need one.

 jkarran 17 Mar 2023
In reply to Blue Ridge:

They're not useless, especially since they can be doubled up and used as a 120 anyway and the weight penalty is small. That said, I semi-retired mine, for the latter part of my climbing career I preferred using the rope(s) for most jobs I'd have used the big sling for previously.

There are plenty of big rough boulders it's better to drape a cheap sling over than an expensive rope which can get pinched, cut and jammed. They can also be used quite reasonably to equalise 'powerpoint' type belay anchors, not my style but lots of people do prefer that. Ultimately how useful you find it will come down to where you climb and how useful you choose to make it.

Probably the only 'real' use where nothing else is quite as good is slinging big rough boulders, saving your rope the wear. That's pretty much a gritstone edge thing which isn't all there is to climbing and even then there are usually good alternatives.

jk

Post edited at 08:49
 jkarran 17 Mar 2023
In reply to Blue Ridge:

> Another question: Is it safe to trust a single sling around a solid boulder as an anchor? I’ve noticed YouTube tutorials and other sources that use several anchor points when utilising cams and nuts etc, but that seems to be for proper climbing where maybe you’re less likely to find a boulder anchor halfway up a wall.

For a belay you do really want two+ pieces, even a sling around a single big boulder should be viewed with a little suspicion. Boulders can wobble and pinch, they get broken glass kicked under them, some boulders and spikes aren't all they seem (not half buried, split through etc) but mostly having a pair of anchors spaced apart, even where the redundancy is perhaps overkill, helps keep you in place laterally at the edge which can be really useful when the route moves around below you or where you're perched in a slightly precarious position to belay.

I'd say the one time I'd routinely use a single belay anchor without a second thought would be a healthy mature tree in which case I'd just walk around it and back to the edge, use the rope to secure myself. Even then only when it's in the right place for the route/belay.

> A single sling around a boulder is what I learned with the instructor on my winter mountaineering course earlier this season. We weren’t vertical climbing. It was a grade 1 (summer) scramble with verglas and exposure. We also later did snow bollard anchors, which was fun!

Winter anchors are often not great compared to what you can achieve while rockclimbing, compromises are made in order to get things done and quickly where speed can add safety given short days and changeable weather.

jk

Post edited at 09:19
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 fred99 17 Mar 2023
In reply to jkarran:

> There are plenty of big rough boulders it's better to drape a cheap sling over than an expensive rope which can get pinched, cut and jammed.

That's exactly why I changed tack to always carrying one. Belaying at the top of a gritstone edge with one end of a 50 metre rope looped around a large boulder - rope got jammed and frayed, so it became a 40 metre rope ! Bit of a nuisance taking in on doubles when one rope is 10 metres longer than the other.

In reply to Root1:

Falling onto non-dynamic things will generate high forces, potentially enough to snap a sling, that part is true. But it's wrong to assume that the sling is the thing that will break first. You probably will. Or gear will rip.

 Root1 17 Mar 2023
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

> Falling onto non-dynamic things will generate high forces, potentially enough to snap a sling, that part is true. But it's wrong to assume that the sling is the thing that will break first. You probably will. Or gear will rip.

Interesting. According to DMM A 60cm fall onto Dyneema can destroy a size 11 Wallnut..Clearly even if the sling holds then belay failure and or serious injury is a big danger. I think the warning about Dyneema is valid even if it doesn't break, although that risk must remain as these things do not happen under laboratory controlled conditions.

.

 ebdon 17 Mar 2023
In reply to Root1:

Somthing else to consider is if you replaced that dynema with rope it still wouldn't help you that much as the stretch on such short lengths would be minimal.

I think the key message is dont set up crap belays with loads of slack rather than dynema is the wrong material.

Ps I use a 240cm sling all the time for making master point belays when I'm climbing multipitch routes with my wife and leading every pitch.  However I never even think about taking it if I'm climbing with a mate, swapping leads and belaying off the rope. It can sometimes also be useful for rigging. 

Post edited at 11:48
 Jimbo C 17 Mar 2023
In reply to Blue Ridge:

My 240cm sling gets used very regularly in the belay. Perfect for anchoring to large rocks

 jkarran 17 Mar 2023
In reply to ebdon:

> I think the key message is dont set up crap belays with loads of slack rather than dynema is the wrong material.

Yep. The whole recurring and overblown discussion comes from the fact dyneema slings will break under drop test conditions using very rigid steel weights and anchors where other materials don't. I think in the real world with floppy human drop weights the difference is likely to be far less clear-cut if it's even measurable, especially since most slings (~22kN) will be connected to weaker gear (~12kN) that will act like a fuse, saving the sling if not the climber!

jk

 Chris Haslam 17 Mar 2023
In reply to Blue Ridge:

Another 240 user here. I've found them invaluable for belay building especially on multi pitch where I routinely carry 2. 

It's all very personal though,  nice to try a range of kit so you can find what works for you. 

 Tyler 17 Mar 2023
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> It may look big now, but when you start building three-point belays you'll see how quickly sling runs out and how a 120 often isn't enough if you want to create an equalised masterpoint e.g. for belaying in guide mode if or your second is going to be seconding the next pitch as well. I have two, and always have at least one on my harness when climbing trad. Keep!

Does anyone belay leaders in guide mode on anything other than fixed anchors. Seems a huge faff to have to construct a belay for an upward pull as well as down.

 Rick Graham 17 Mar 2023
In reply to Tyler:

> Does anyone belay leaders in guide mode on anything other than fixed anchors. Seems a huge faff to have to construct a belay for an upward pull as well as down.

"Guide mode " is only for belaying seconds.

Apparently only good for a few kN then one rope flips over the other with the load and it becomes almost free running.

 Tyler 17 Mar 2023
In reply to Rick Graham:
Thanks, I was just coming to that conclusion the longer I thought about it! Never really found a use case for it in my climbing (unlike a 240cm sling which would, occasionally, have been useful but not often enough to warrant carrying one).

Post edited at 14:00
 PaulJepson 17 Mar 2023
In reply to Tyler:

It's a game-changer if you're climbing in a 3.

 Paul Sagar 17 Mar 2023
In reply to Tyler:

When the second gets to the belay, if they are leading the next pitch I just switch out of guide mode and into a regular belay. So the anchor can be a normal one.

 Fellover 17 Mar 2023
In reply to ebdon:

> Somthing else to consider is if you replaced that dynema with rope it still wouldn't help you that much as the stretch on such short lengths would be minimal.

I think that this is quite a common myth. In a short fall* a short length of rope will stretch enough to significantly lower the force compared with a dyneema sling. This is an obvious consequence of the fall factor rope model. Admittedly the FF model is that the rope is a linear spring, which isn't accurate, but it's quite representative.

The infamous DMM tests also included tests with static and dynamic rope (same conditions as the sling tests i.e. same very short fall distances) and resulted in much lower forces tha the sling tests. https://dmmwales.com/knowledge/june-2010/how-to-break-nylon-dyneema%C2%AE-s... scroll down to see take of results.

*E.g. when attached to a belay with a short length of rope or a sling. Not talking about a second fall, when there's lots of rope in the system, in which case I agree, the belay material is irrelevant.

> I think the key message is dont set up crap belays with loads of slack rather than dynema is the wrong material.

Yeah

To the OP, I rarely take my 240cm sling anywhere, but some people love them. I'm sure you'll get good use out of it if you keep it but personally I'd rather have a 120cm. No wrong answer really.

 tehmarks 17 Mar 2023
In reply to Blue Ridge:

Having bought it I'd keep it - it's the sort of thing that will occasionally come in useful if you start to do more roped climbing.

I don't personally have one on my rack anymore, but I have a 5m length of 7mm with loops in each end that serves a similar purpose when required. It rarely leaves the ground - but it lives on my 'normal' rack that I take to the crag by default.

If I'm building a trad belay and a 120cm sling isn't enough, I personally involve the rope in preference to long slings or cordelettes. And weirdly, my mates who prefer cordelettes get a bit shirty a lot when I 're-rack' it by stuffing it down my jumper in a gale force wind five pitches up...


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