Double up on dragons

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 Davy Murphy 24 Sep 2019

Hi all what are the dragons you double up on while climbing areas like wales and Yorkshire area. Why that dragon colour and size etc. Thanks 🙏🏻 

davy 

 BnB 24 Sep 2019
In reply to Davy Murphy:

Red, green and gold. Surely you don’t need to ask why?

 Climbthatpitch 24 Sep 2019
In reply to Davy Murphy:

Haven't climbed in yoirkshire a lot but I haven't took a double set of cams on any route in Wales so far.

Maybe a 1/2 set of small nuts on longer routes

Post edited at 18:22
 mrphilipoldham 24 Sep 2019
In reply to Davy Murphy:

None. I do own two purple ones, but 99% of the time I leave one on the ground. 

 DaveHK 24 Sep 2019
In reply to Davy Murphy:

I can't remember ever doubling up on cams in the UK.  I suppose I might have for certain specific routes but none spring to mind. It's certainly not a regular thing.

Post edited at 19:06
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In reply to Davy Murphy:

> Hi all what are the dragons you double up on while climbing areas like wales and Yorkshire area. Why that dragon colour and size etc. Thanks 🙏🏻 

> davy 

Don't own dragons.  Old school 4 CU's and I've never needed to double up on cams.

It's good to have an extra set of nuts however.

 EdS 24 Sep 2019
In reply to Davy Murphy:

Cams in Yorkshire.....Never. Too bloody expensive. 

Unless you are using your partners

1
Deadeye 24 Sep 2019
In reply to BnB:

Ethiopian?

 C Witter 24 Sep 2019
In reply to Davy Murphy:

Lots of funny answers here, so here's my over-earnest essay for you:

I usually climb in the Lakes, which is very comparable to Ogwen/Llanberis mountain rock. I've mostly climbed without doubles, but I've recently begun doubling the sizes that for Dragons are small silver, green and a 4cu that sits between red and yellow, following a day out pushing my grade with a friend who climbs much harder and suggested carrying some doubles for 30m pitches.

In the Lakes, as the rock can be really compact, an extra small silver is useful for thin cracks, flakes and pockets (actually, I use a Wild Country 0.5 cam and a grey 3/4 Alien cam). In fact, I usually also take one or two cams that are smaller than this. But, mostly you want doubles when you're climbing a long crack. You can work out which sizes you might want to double up on from the type of crack you're climbing. So, I think it goes something like: silver and purple for finger cracks; purple through red for hand cracks; yellow and blue for fist cracks. Of course, if you're carrying too much stuff it'll only hold you back, so most people would resist doubling everything and just think about the route they're climbing or perhaps double some of the medium cams if they're unsure what they might encounter.

One thing you could do instead of carrying doubles of the same cam is to get a different brand with a slightly different sizing, e.g. I recently saw that the Wild Country new friends are slightly but significantly bigger than their DMM counterparts. So, I've one green Dragon and one green WC new friend that sits in size between the green and the red Dragon.

This is all just my opinion. One person will tell you: obviously take two big yellows. Another that they always carry two purples. Then someone will start up complaining about the amount of kit everyone carries these days. I'm content just to experiment for myself though, and the best test is keeping an eye on what you always place, what you wish you had that you don't, and what is always left on your rack at the top of the climb. 

Post edited at 23:13
 Cake 25 Sep 2019
In reply to Davy Murphy:

Gritstone does swallow cams most of the time in all those lovely breaks and cracks, so doubling up so I have doubled up purple to yellow on longer routes.

However, most Yorkshire grit is not very tall is it? I don't climb there much, but I can't think of many big crags.

In reply to Davy Murphy:

For mountain rock (actually make that all rock other than gritstone) I never double up cams (although sometimes I wish I had done for a specific size) because the weight of the full rack would get a bit much since you won't know beforehand which one to double up on  (unless as C Witter says, you can see a crack or feature that would benefit). Generally there is going to be an alternative available.

Gritstone: I have experimented with doubling up in the middle sizes on the basis that the rack I carry is smaller on the wire/quickdraw front. This seems to work well sometimes.

 HeMa 25 Sep 2019
In reply to Davy Murphy:

As can be seen from the answers, people have different ideas and opinions.

I haven't climbed (I think) in Yorkshire, so can't give any specific suggestions.

But I can give some generic ideas to ponder on.

First think about which sizes you tend to use the most, and then think about if you have wished that you had a second one of the same size higher up on a route.

The other way of thinking things is to ponder about what sizes tend to be nasty to place. For me that finger sizes and smaller, sure you could most of the time fiddle in a nut... but at least where I climb these sections tend to be rather sustained so fiddling in nuts proves often too time consuming where as slammin' in a cam is easy. So I often end up doubling on micro cams  up to around purple (thin hands, my nemesis). The small stuff doesn't weigh much and is easy & quick to place when needed. For Red/Yellow sizes, well that's like bomber hand jams so nice and casual to run it out and often one is enough (plus you can still place the small gear on horizontals etc.).

I do also suggest at lookin' a different brand for the doubles, as the small changes in the size might make them seat better.

 GrahamD 25 Sep 2019
In reply to Davy Murphy:

Personally I would never think about doubling in the UK. Cams, and especially larger ones, are cumbersome to carry and not trivially light.  These days I'm more concerned with what less I can carry, not what more. 

I can't think of any route where I've been seriously compromised in this way.

 C Witter 25 Sep 2019
In reply to C Witter:

One further point: although I double some cams, I don't carry hexes. This could also be something to think about, as a double set of cams and a set of hexes is just too much gear for most UK climbs... Perhaps some people on the thread who would never consider doubling cams take a couple of largish hexes..?

 DaveHK 25 Sep 2019
In reply to C Witter:

> Perhaps some people on the thread who would never consider doubling cams take a couple of largish hexes..?

I don't.

People should do whatever makes them feel comfortable or safe but  I've never found it necessary to double up on cams as a matter of course in the UK. 

Post edited at 11:01
 C Witter 25 Sep 2019
In reply to DaveHK:

Fair enough! I've a mild allergic reaction to run outs, so that may be it... symptoms of nausea and vertigo, feeling hot and clammy, beginning to tremble, mind racing, loosening bowels, anxiety, morbid thoughts, etc. D'you ever get that? Funnily enough, lobbing a bomber cam in seems to make it all go away - works better than half a pack of Rennie and a nice lie down!

 HeMa 25 Sep 2019
In reply to DaveHK:

Indeed,

People do what they feel is right.


If I were to only climb somthing I'm rather confortable at climbing (around VS), I generally don't carry double cams (on single pitch), generally rough sizes from purple to yellow (DMM/BD colors) and like 6 or so nuts. It's generally enough to protect the climb for a full pitch (so 30m or less). Mainly 'cause I might even be comfortable at soloing it.

Now where I to push my limit and try to OS something hard (so French sport grade would be around 6c to 7a), I would certainly stack the changes in my favour and carry double in the difficult sizes (so finger and smaller) as the local granite I climb offers very little on holds 'cept for the cracks or thin crimps... meaning that the gear is mostly going to be fiddly to place (it really ain't 6c / 7a if you're hanging from a solid hand jam) and often that means small stuff.

So the  media you climb and how you climb affect your requirements...

Multi-pitch climbs are different, as anchors will also require gear (but thats beside the point).

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 brianjcooper 25 Sep 2019
In reply to Chive Talkin\':

>  Old school 4 CU's and I've never needed to double up on cams.

> It's good to have an extra set of nuts however.

Nothing Old school about 4 CU cams. Just had the slings on some replaced by DMM. An excellent job and cost effective too.

I have several duplicate sized cams in my rucksack, but I usually look at a route first and decide what I might need on it rather than carry extra cams. But as one poster has mentioned, maybe having more is useful at the belay, and also harder to determine on multi-pitch climbs. 

 PaulJepson 25 Sep 2019
In reply to Davy Murphy:

Don't know about Yorkshire but the few times I've climbed Derbyshire grit there have been a couple of occasions I've looked at a route and been thankful I had doubles. I have a mix of Friends and C4s with a bit of a crossover rather than straight-up doubles though. Might be an idea to get something like Totums? That way you actually have something that may suit a particular placement better than what you currently have, but still will have redundancy in certain sized placements.

If your partner has gear as well though, just get them to also bring their cams and you can take what you need? I don't think it's necessary for anyone to have doubles really, as you'd expect your partner to at least have a couple of doubles they can bring. 

 Dell 25 Sep 2019
In reply to Davy Murphy:

Just get a set of tricams* to supplement your existing set.

Cheaper, lighter, more compact than cams, easier to place than nuts, and bomber. 

*Awaits mixture of up votes and down votes. 

Post edited at 15:51
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 PaulJepson 25 Sep 2019
In reply to Dell:

I'm glad that UKC has the facility to report posts from perverts like you.

Post edited at 17:08
 Misha 25 Sep 2019
In reply to Davy Murphy:

Rather depends on the nature and length of the route/pitch. Does it look like doubling up would be useful / sensible? Does it look like you would want to double up on smaller cams, medium cams, large cams or a bit of everything? There’s your answer.

As a general rule, on E1 to E5 ground I would double up from small blue to gold if the pitch is 20m+ and has a reasonable amount of gear. However if it’s obvious that smaller/larger cams won’t be required, I will leave them. No point taking a gold, never mind two golds, if you can see that the largest placement is going to be a green or perhaps a red. On easier routes I will often double up anyway for convenience as I don’t care about the weight of the rack. I’m definitely a big rack person though. 

Conversely, in the Alps, where weight is important, it’s very rare that I would double up. Different ball game though. 

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 bensilvestre 27 Sep 2019
In reply to Davy Murphy:

Certain types of rock (Gogarth quartzite, Lewisian gneiss) take cams really well, and so it is common practice to double up on at least the mid sizes (small blue or silver dragon to red or gold) in those places. I climbed at Gogarth for years without doubling up, but especially on the harder routes the difference between quickly placing a cam and spending ages fiddling in an awkward nut can make a big difference. My friend Calum recently climbed Alien without placing a single wire until the upper groove. And it was very well protected.

Edit: the reason for carrying those sizes is just that they are the most common. I often double up only to red as gold and blue are pretty heavy, but as Misha said looking at the route from below will often give a hint of what is needed

Post edited at 08:42

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