/ Dmm Wall nuts

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L Climbing Joanna 11 Feb 2020

Hi All, please help

Ive decided to start trad climbing, could someone tell me please....... im using DMM Wallnuts do i need more than one of a certain wall nut size?

If so which size might i need more than one of?

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Deadeye 11 Feb 2020
In reply to Climbing Joanna:

> Hi All, please help

> Ive decided to start trad climbing, could someone tell me please....... im using DMM Wallnuts do i need more than one of a certain wall nut size?

> If so which size might i need more than one of?


"Need"?  No.

"Might find useful".  Possibly.  If you're tight on budget, then start any doubling up with small-medium (#2-5).

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McKEuan 11 Feb 2020
In reply to Climbing Joanna:

I wouldn't double on sizes as if your climbing with someone else hopefully they have some as well!

I'd get some additions, for instance;

  • Alloy offsets
  • Superlight rocks
  • Offset superlight rocks

Gives you "double ups" but different shapes to use as well! Personally I think the superlights are one of the best bits Wild Country do!

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brianjcooper 11 Feb 2020
In reply to McKEuan:

> I wouldn't double on sizes as if your climbing with someone else hopefully they have some as well!

Good call. My partner and I usually have enough kit, including ropes, between us to cover most situations.

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jim jones 11 Feb 2020
In reply to Climbing Joanna:

> Ive decided to start trad climbing, could someone tell me please....... im using DMM Wallnuts do i need more than one of a certain wall nut size?

Just wondering why choose Wallnuts over Rocks? 

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brianjcooper 11 Feb 2020
In reply to jim jones:

> Just wondering why choose Wallnuts over Rocks? 

At the risk of encouraging lots of 'dislikes'. In my experience Rocks are much harder to retrieve from cracks etc. than any other 'wire' I've used. Both work well though.  

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jim jones 11 Feb 2020
In reply to brianjcooper:

> At the risk of encouraging lots of 'dislikes'. In my experience Rocks are much harder to retrieve from cracks etc. than any other 'wire' I've used. Both work well though.  

Wouldn't dream of disliking! Personally I've always found Wallnuts very much harder to retrieve from tricky placements than Rocks, that groove can be a real sod if it catches on a crystal deep in a crack (especially on granite). Sold my Wallnuts a few months after buying a set when they first came out! Never had a problem with Rocks in 40 years.  

Post edited at 21:47
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brianjcooper 11 Feb 2020
In reply to jim jones:

Horses for courses I guess.   Eliminator is still on my list.   Great photo.

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McKEuan 11 Feb 2020
In reply to jim jones:

The key differences between rocks and wallnuts is the shape,  obviously.

WC rocks where developed with rounded, high friction rock types in mins, grit, granite etc.

Wallnuts where made with the different Welsh rock types in mind. Limestone, Slate, Rhyolite. Not so high friction but looking for small nubbins and bubbles to aid friction etc.

Nerd over!  

Post edited at 22:27
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jim jones 11 Feb 2020
In reply to McKEuan:

Don’t really follow the logic behind this, nubbins in slate cracks for example? Wallnuts can be a real pain to remove at Tremadog and also Gogarth in placements that Rocks protect perfectly well, Vulcan, Vector et al. 

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brianjcooper 11 Feb 2020
In reply to jim jones:

Vulcan!!!    F...k me that looked desperate. Glad we were doing Falcon.

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jim jones 12 Feb 2020
In reply to brianjcooper:

Vulcan seconded badly, enough to convince me Wallnuts are not ideal at Tremadog. And as for Falcon the Rock 1 stuck in the horizontal crack for years at the first crux was mine! 😂

Post edited at 00:03
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MischaHY 12 Feb 2020
In reply to jim jones:

Your photo gallery is an absolute delight. Fantastic effort, especially with the light in many of the shots. 

ON the subject at hand, I've always found that Wallnuts are more likely to stick in marginal placements and generally a bit easier to wiggle in due to the more varied shape. 

I would forward the opinion that the person placing them in your experience was perhaps seating them a little too hard. 

In the end we're all best placed using what we feel most comfortable with in extremis! 

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GHawksworth 12 Feb 2020
In reply to Climbing Joanna:

Agreed that if you were to desire to "double up", to have a different style of nut. I also second the idea that the superlight offsets from WC are amazing! They cover a wide size range with fewer pieces, making scrambling and alpine routes more fun!

That being said, I carry two #6 wallnuts as one was crag swag. one on my big nuts crab and one on my small nuts crab so there's an overlap if i get the size of the crack wrong.

I think the best (first) compliment to a DMM nut set would be the DMM offset nut set. They seem to work really well in conjunction with the standard ones.

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Paul Sagar 12 Feb 2020
In reply to Climbing Joanna:

If you're looking to build a trad rack all of your own, and not having to rely on sharing with a partner, I'd recommend the following:

Climbing up to HVS:

1 full set of DMM wallnuts  1-11

1 full set of Wild Country rocks 1-11

1 set of offsets (I like DMM wallnut offsets, but it doesn't matter so much)

Set of DMM Dragon Cams 0-5 (or maybe 00-6 if you're feeling flush).

6-8 regular trad quick draws

4-6 extendable draws on slings

4-6 screw gate carabiners

a couple of extra slings (a long one and a really long one).

- The advantage of having two sets of nuts of different makes is that sometimes e.g. a number 3 DMM will not go in, but a number 3 WC will, depending on the placement. Also allows for versatility if you climb on different rock types. As you get into the higher grades, you only need to double up on say 1-7/8 and can get away with taking one or zero of sizes 8/9-11 depending on terrain and likelihood of their being giant gear placements. Also having offsets is highly advisable as often there are gear placements that won't easily take a regular nut but in which an offset of the same size is super bomber.

Climbing E1 and up

The above, but also add:

- Microcams: I recommend DMM Dragonflies, skipping the very smallest one unless you're climbing E4 and up (probably)

- Microwires: DMM micros are so good it's unreal. I took a full leader full on their little yellow one and although it wrecked the wire, the placement held. 

- Brass micros and brass offsets: to overlap with the above, but for more awkward placements and where a bit of 'give' in the metal actually helps get it seated

So in a way it depends on what grade you are climbing. Up to about HVS you need a less extensive rack; pushing into the E grades, more advanced protection is essential. 

It's expensive to get it all, yes, but when you've got disco leg 20 meters off the deck you don't care that you spent that money.

Post edited at 12:31
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Paul Sagar 12 Feb 2020
In reply to Climbing Joanna:

The problem with trying to specify specific sizes you might need doubles of is that it depends on what location you are in - some venues gobble up some sizes more than others.

As a general rule though I would always suggest carrying at least 2 of the silver, gold, blue and red nuts. I actually carry triples of all of those as I like to have something in reserve, and these tend to get used up more than other placements I find.

Post edited at 12:30
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Naechi 12 Feb 2020
In reply to Climbing Joanna:

My local crag takes a lot of DMM wallnut size 4 in multiple places on most climbs - so I have 4 (possibly 5) of that size in my rack.

+1 for getting a set of offsets, with the DMM half nuts coming soon there should be enough crossover between the 3 sets to cover everything without doubling up.

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Paul Sagar 13 Feb 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

What on Earth are the dislikes for?!

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kylos8048 13 Feb 2020
In reply to Climbing Joanna:

DMM offsets are my favorite climbing gear. I'd sooner do a climb without any cams than without my offsets. Usually sit so much better than normal nuts and don't get as stuck. At fairhead you can triple up on red black turquoise easily. 

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Max factor 13 Feb 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> What on Earth are the dislikes for?!

You forgot the hex dogma. Or folk in the old days did HVS with a tin opener and their grandad's braces. 

I think your advice to get a set of rocks + a set of wallnuts is probably standard for 5+ years ago. But with the improvement in lighter gear, there is a very good case for a standard set of Rocks/Wallnuts + either superlight rocks or offsets.

I now have too many wires to work out how to incorporate even my offsets.  I'm always fettling with different systems to carry less and then finding I am missing the crucial sizes I want. 

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PaulJepson 13 Feb 2020
In reply to Climbing Joanna:

The DMM offsets tend to sit a lot nicer in rock that WC Superlights, in my opinion, and have a lot more in contact with the rock. They do weigh a fair bit more though. I have both but tend to only rack my DMMs. 

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wbo2 13 Feb 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar: Not worth a dislike but that's a heck of a lot of gear to haul around.  4,5 sets of wires, double cams?  But not that many draws for a 50m pitch

I like hexes because I'm too weak to carry tons of cams   2 sets of wires is a basic tho

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Paul Sagar 13 Feb 2020
In reply to wbo2:

If you're climbing on grit, it's a lot of gear.

If you're climbing on pitches that are 20-30 meters, and especially if you are doing multiptich, it's useful to have it! Although I guess a few more draws won't go amiss.

Also, lugging round a huge rack makes you climber harder because it's basically weight training so you can improve your sport grade in the process

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beardy mike 13 Feb 2020
In reply to Climbing Joanna:

Personally I carry a set of wallnuts and a set of superlight and superlight offset rocks. I have a set of DMM offsets but they have been basically replaced by the superlight offsets, unlike Paul I find they set massively well - maybe a difference in types of rocks we use them in? I climb mainly on Lime but I find they sit really well in awkward shallow flared pods you get on natural lime. If you are climbing on welsh igneous or in the lakes, yes, tripling up on mid sizes can be a good idea as most gear is in that range. Thesedays on Alpine rock I just take the superlights and sl offsets, infact I've boosted my collection as they are just so damned light there's no point in not taking them.

Microwires once you get to that stage, my absolute favourite is the Metolius Astronut in the trad sizes (aid ones are weeeeeeny) but they are bloody hard to get hold of because they were UIAA rated but no CE marked so only available from outside the EU. UIAA is good enough for sure. I find they sit better than any other microwire I've tried. Maybe now that Brexit is happening, this could be an actual positive, that these little gems will get imported more easily?

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L Climbing Joanna 13 Feb 2020
In reply to jim jones:

No paticular reason, it just happened to be the type i came across.

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Paul Sagar 13 Feb 2020

See for the same reason I'm not allowed to open emails from Rock+Run, Absolute Snow, Needle Sports, etc, I shouldn't be allowed to read UKC threads about gear.

Because now I OBVIOUSLY want to buy a set of Superlights and Superlight Offsets.

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L Climbing Joanna 13 Feb 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Wow thankyou for that, although for me to buy all those i think i may need a second morgage :-O

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Paul Sagar 13 Feb 2020
In reply to Climbing Joanna:

If money is an issue, hexes can replace cams in the lower grades!

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GrahamD 13 Feb 2020
In reply to Climbing Joanna:

Normally the smaller sizes are where you want to start doubling up.  Personally I'd look at getting sets of small wires which is cheaper than buying individual wires.  Wall nuts or Rocks - not a huge amount to choose between them IMO

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Alkis 13 Feb 2020
In reply to Climbing Joanna:

You never really need to buy all this in one go, especially if your partners also have gear. I built a trad rack very similar to the high grade list of that over many years.

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In reply to wbo2:

How many draws might you use over a 50m pitch?

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In reply to Paul Sagar:

Thank you thats good to know, climbing gear can be very exspensive.

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Paul Sagar 20:37 Sun
In reply to Climbing Joanna:

That’s a huge pitch! 50m, you’re looking at 18-20 draws. 

most trad pitches are a lot shorter though. 

Post edited at 20:38
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pass and peak 21:01 Sun
In reply to Climbing Joanna:

> How many draws might you use over a 50m pitch?

Depends how scared you get and the availability of placements!

On the difficult section or crux at your top leading grade, then once the pro is below your feet, you'll think about wanting more gear. as the climbing gets easier then you'll be happy to run it out, so it's all in the head really!

as said most pitches are way sorter than 50m and usually the guide book will tell you the length of the pitches, so is to be studied before you leave the ground. For an average climb I usually carry 5 x 22cm quick draws, 4 x 12cm draws and 6 x 60cm extendable draws/slings with maybe a couple of 12ocm over my shoulder.  

Post edited at 21:02
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kylos8048 09:59 Mon
In reply to Climbing Joanna:

A quick draw for every 2m of climbing is a  decent guide. 

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wbo2 10:07 Mon
In reply to Climbing Joanna:A lot!  Especially if you ever need to extend or double up, plus if you use any for the belay.  I've got 20plus at home so up to that though normally a lot less.  50m pitches are long, but you do see them.

Re nuts I prefer rocks to wallnuts and carry a set and a half  , doubled up in the smaller sizes tho' I've started carrying more larger ones.  But then you'r moving into cams/hexes territory.  I tihnk wallnuts/rocks  preference is whatever you're used to

Post edited at 10:10
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wbo2 10:08 Mon
In reply to kylos8048: There are some slab 'sport' routes not so far from me with 4, 5 bolts in 55m pitches.  Bolt belays tho'

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beardy mike 17:25 Mon
In reply to people climbing with the most enormous rack in the world:

18-20 extenders for a 50m pitch? WTF? Are you lot having a laugh?

No.1, 50m pitches are rare, especially in the UK. 30m is long.

No.2, if you put in 20 extenders there is feck all chance you'd be able to move by the end of the pitch for the rope drag unless you extend like crazy.

No.3, Just stop short if you run out? Just because a guidebook says belay somewhere doesn't mean you HAVE to.

No.4, If you took that attitude in the alps, you'd be benighted, and just not get up anything. Like ever. I know it's unlikely that Joanna is asking about the alps, but it's worth pointing out.

Personally I carry between 10 and 14, whether its a long pitch or not, on short ones it gives me a choice of length extender, and on long ones, well I'd normally be climbing well within my limit for such a long pitch and therefore be able to run it out a little. Maybe its a result of climbing on run out Avon gorge slabs but damn, 2m between runners? I wish...

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kylos8048 05:54 Tue
In reply to beardy mike:

Easy to berate a 'general guide' with specific examples. For a 10m pitch 5 draws feels appropriate. For a 15m pitch 7-8 will be fine. Yes when you go higher you will space out draws more. I tend to climb 50-60m pitches (linked at fairhead) with about 18 draws and extenders. But all my cams have a snap gate. 

If you are climbing a slab route with 4 bolts and no other gear. Take 4 draws. I thought that would be obvious. To be fair on slabs I'd be much more concerned about leaving the heavy cams and nuts I'll never use in my bag than the light extenders or draws. Not that the extra weight is that punishing on a slab anyway. 

Post edited at 06:02
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C Witter 09:51 Tue
In reply to Climbing Joanna:

Building a rack for the first time? Where do you normally climb? That determines a lot about the gear you need. On shorter, easier routes you would get away with one set of 10 or 11 nuts. On a long pitch (e.g. 50m you mentioned), it'd be better to have two sets amongst other gear.

Personally, I would ignore people saying Wallnuts are hard to retrieve, etc. I think it's all about how you place them and how you retrieve them and I rarely have any problems with them. I slightly prefer Wallnuts, due to their shape (deeper/broader, for more contact and stability; and cleverly sized across the range). I would also ignore superlights for now, because they're not as strong as other nuts (e.g. 4kn - 6kn rather than 7kn - 12kn). I'm sure some will disagree, but I think they're specialised rather than "go to" gear.

The Rockfax Trad Climbing+ book is a really useful resource regarding lots of questions you might have. It's not exhaustive, but neither is it exhausting - it strikes a good balance!

Post edited at 09:54
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Phil79 10:13 Tue
In reply to jim jones:

> Just wondering why choose Wallnuts over Rocks? 

Because they're better? ;)

More sensibly, I think comparative usefulness of either depend on what rock type you predominantly climb. 

Rocks seems to work very well in smooth sided cracks (grit, rhyolite, etc), whereas wallnuts tend to be more useful in uneven or crozly cracks (some limestone, granite etc). Personally I prefer wallnuts but each to their own.     

Post edited at 10:18
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PaulJepson 11:06 Tue
In reply to beardy mike:

They definitely exist though. 

Even in my limited experience I have climbed pitches of ~45m (Wynd Cliff main & Baggy). 

In those instances I was happy to have 18 or so draws, even with cams. 

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Martin Bennett 14:48 Tue
In reply to jim jones:

>, that groove can be a real sod if it catches on a crystal deep in a crack 

Indeed Jim. Anyone remember Campbell Saddle Wedges? Great confidence making placements but a horror to get out. Both of the ones I had had become crag litter within months of buying 'em.

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beardy mike 21:42 Tue
In reply to kylos8048:

I don’t think I berated anyone or anything. You have stated you use 18 extenders when linking pitches at fairhead. I.e. you skipped a belay and didn’t need 18 extenders - you could have stopped at the belay. I’ve done plenty of linked pitches, albeit at lower grades than my max and been quite happy with 14 extenders. I think in 30 odd years of climbing I’ve run out once, which to be fair was on a long pitch which meandered lots. I guess all I’m saying is that as a starter rack, you simply don’t need to be carrying 18-20 extenders, not when you are initially going to be getting up vdiffs to vs...

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beardy mike 21:46 Tue
In reply to PaulJepson: of course they exist - it’s up to each individual what they carry. I’ll I’m suggesting is that for a beginner 18 draws to totally counterproductive... It’s heavy, expensive and means its harder to find things on your rack which means you’ll get more pumped pissing about placing gear. IMO it’s better take less and work with what you have rather than taking something for every eventuality.

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Basemetal 22:25 Tue
In reply to Climbing Joanna:

Fascinating discussion. I learned to climb before quickdraw were used as routine - maybe before they existed as such. Though I have lost lots of runners by pulling them out from above for want of an extender!. Slings were always an option though, as well as tricks like joining two wires together for length, or weighting gear with ballast to keep it in place. I think I learned a lot about nut placements and directionality and rope routing because of the limitations of my early rack.

And that's a  point for the OP, getting into trad ( or climbing as we used to call it ). - there are lots of sneaky improvisations worth learning by experience on grades you feel reasonably comfortable with. Nuts in opposition, stacked nuts, natural pebbles held in a nut cable, carabiners as nuts, knots in slings as nuts, nut keys as micro nuts and so on and so on. I'm sure there must be books full of this suff. Necessity becomes the mother of enjoyable inventive problem solving. So buy what you find you need, but it's helpful to need it a bit first.

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C Witter 23:24 Tue
In reply to Basemetal:

When you say "sneaky improvisations", I presume you mean "things you really don't want to fall on" for at least the last four of those six examples! I think, if there's not a book, it's possibly because of the potential legal ramifications of advising someone to use their pen-knife as an improvised piton ("when tying off the pen-knife, remember to orient it sharp edge downward...") or explaining how best to belay off a rucksack ("Drawing on the same basic principles as the 'Canadian stomper', this technique comes into its own on routes with loose or poor-quality rock...").

Re: the great quickdraw debate above, I do remember using my prussik and a couple of crabs salvaged off remaining gear to create an improvised quickdraw near the top of North-west Arete, having used up all my quickdraws and slings. It's not 50m, but it was my first significant VS and I placed too much gear!

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Basemetal 01:19 Wed
In reply to C Witter:

> I think, if there's not a book, it's possibly because of the potential legal ramifications

I don't fancy your penknife example much, but IIRC Royal Robins covered all of mine in his Rockcraft books. I don't think legal liability arises when any achievable runner may be better than none.

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