Death fabric - how deadly is it and why

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 John Kelly 28 Oct 2020

I often wear a cotton teeshirt as a base layer when on the hill, certainly spring to autumn, I also have a couple of icebreaker longsleeved crew tee shirts which tend to come out about now. 

I quite often end up wet (weather or sweat) in both garments and can't honestly tell the difference between them, both are chilling when wet and both can't really be dried on the hill on a wet day.

Is there some science to back up the death fabric mantra?

 bouldery bits 28 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

I use synthetic baselayers exclusively for hill days. 

They do dry quicker than cotton or wool stuff. 

I've never been impressed by merino stuff. I find it doesn't survive washing too well whereas one of my Smelly Helly Lifa tops is from around 2005 and still going strong. 

The soggy cotton t shirt thing I did once as a youth and never again!

Post edited at 17:34
In reply to John Kelly:

Two words 

String vest 

 wercat 28 Oct 2020
In reply to bouldery bits:

Merino is fine if you don't buy it to fit.   Buy huge XLs or XXLs in sales and it will end up lasting and fitting after washing.  The lack of stink is worth it

7
 Robert Durran 28 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

Merino is rubbish. Just turns into a waterlogged mass. Stick with the usual synthetic things.

19
 Dave the Rave 28 Oct 2020
In reply to bouldery bits:

Just worn my HH lifa t shirt up moel Famau on a cold, dark, blustery evening. It’s from around 1990 and is still as good as new.

No holes except the ones that should be there and I was dry as a bone on return.

Lifa,  HH pile jacket and wind shirt was  a good combination for these conditions.

 jethro kiernan 28 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

Norwegian string Vest, merino/poly blend HH long sleeve, Rab alpha/windproof  over the top, this will often do from car park to summit and back. 😏string vest definitely the key to layering in the winter.

1
 Dave the Rave 28 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

An old ME Aquafleece Guide jacket from 2000 wasn’t very good for the conditions I used it for, general British Hillwalking.

Too heavy, not breathable and cold when you stopped.

It did save the day on one February holiday when my father in law announced he had left his coat at home at the accommodation.

We walked the Buttermere Hifh Stile ridge in wet and windy conditions, him snug in my Changanang and me soaked in the aquafleece. Luckily it was wind proof and we got down safely.

Really, really wish I’d bought the hooded ME ULTRAFLEECE in XL. Regret tit to this day and can’t find one anywhere.

OP John Kelly 28 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

So consensus appears to be cotton and merino both flawed and I should go back to the old stinky and indestructible polyprop.

Thanks

 kathrync 28 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

Personally, I love my merino and find it much better than cotton and warmer than synthetic (great for me as I run cold).

However, if it doesn't work for you, go with synthetic.

 Myr 28 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

My experience, for balance...

Merino wool - warm, some insulation even when damp, feels comfortable when worn for days, doesn't get smelly. Have had no problems with it shrinking, just wash at 30C (as per instructions).
Cotton - useless if gets wet. Just no.
Synthetic - uncomfortable and smells.

The reason why wool should be better than cotton in the wet is that air can both move through and be trapped in wool in the wet, whereas any air pockets in cotton fabric just fill with water. I think this is due to the shape of the wool fibres and the chemistry of the wool fibre surface.

 aln 28 Oct 2020
In reply to Name Changed 34:

Here's a man wearing a perfect base layer for Scottish conditions. https://tinyurl.com/y6lgbd9s

 gethin_allen 28 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

> So consensus appears to be cotton and merino both flawed and I should go back to the old stinky and indestructible polyprop.

> Thanks


A smelly helly will keep you dryer than a merino but on the flip side nobody will want to sit near you in the pub after a few days wearing it. Whereas you can wear your merino for a week and still get by in polite company.

The thing with merino is that it's not all equal. According to a merino sheep farmer who's place I was staying at in New Zealand, the wool is very much affected by the living conditions of the sheep eg. temperature/drought/hunger So batches can vary. Drought affected wool will break easily apparently so threads can't be too fine because it will pill easily and or deform on washing.

The posh fashion houses pay the highest prices so get the best and will refuse poor quality wool on inspection. This wool then ends up filtering down the line ending up in Aldi or similar.

He also said that because Merino is more popular now some companies are using poorer quality stock than they would have in years gone by. My experience fits this in that some smartwool and icebreaker shirts I bought 10 years ago have been brilliant and just wore thin eventually becoming holey whereas newer and cheaper stuff I've bought lost their shape or when fuzzy before holes appeared.

OP John Kelly 28 Oct 2020
In reply to Myr:

Can't tell the difference between cotton and merino in use both great when dry, crap when wet

All my merino shirts have shrunk

Years ago I used to have a M&S lambs wool jumper, you could ring it out and put it back on it was ace, might try one of those

 alan moore 28 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

I wear a cotton t shirt for the sweaty approach and change into a fresh one for the climbing.

Super-cheap and I don’t smell like a sheep.

OP John Kelly 28 Oct 2020
In reply to gethin_allen:

Interesting, my earlier icebreakers did seem to last longer than the newer versions, still think they are fairly hardwaring, I use them for work over the winter so they get a bit of hammer.

 Herdwickmatt 28 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly: I rate my icebreaker Merinos. Comfy and warm. I also rate my 20 year old HH which is grim and classic mountain wear

OP John Kelly 28 Oct 2020
In reply to alan moore:

My approach entirely, cotton t to the bottom of the climb, sweating. Strip and shove on merino and maybe windproof or light down, if your not particularly worried about how sartorial elegant you appear you can throw the damp  cotton t over all your climbing clothes and by the time you done first couple pitches it's dry and can go back on for extra insulation, just don't let anyone take your pic

 StuDoig 28 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

Another person not overly impressed by Merino stuff.  I've invariable found that it gets damp and doesn't dry out particularly quickly.  My current go to for winter base layer is the Byrnje string vest (synthetic) - holds no moisture and esp if worn under something like an R1 or Eclipse style fleece is fantastically warm without being sweaty.  

My Merino tops have all ended up full of holes as well.  Though I have an HH blended top (2/3 Merino, 1/3 Synthetic) that is also really good and seems to do away with most of the Merino negatives.

Cheers,

Stu

 nathan79 28 Oct 2020
In reply to StuDoig:

I think you need to be careful using the appropriate weight of merino for the conditions to get the balance of wet and warm. I've never had any issues with my merino shrinking and most of it is Aldi stuff. The Rab MeCo stuff is pretty good, a good balance of quicker drying and harder wearing. 

I bought a Brynje-style t-shirt for cycling this year and looking forward to finding out how it performs under my merino in my winter layering.

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 peppermill 28 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

I think it's such a personal thing. I don't seem to sweat a great deal (I'm waiting for the obvious jokes.....) and love both the merino and synthetic base layers. The best by far is a Patagonia one I picked up in a sale. Dries out in a matter of minutes.

Regarding cotton, aside from any thermal/wet properties, cotton just starts to feel like sh*t on even a mildly warm day's walking.

 DaveHK 28 Oct 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Merino is rubbish. Just turns into a waterlogged mass. Stick with the usual synthetic things.

2nd that. Just doesn't work at all for me in any activity where I sweat or get wet. It doesn't wick as well and takes much longer to dry than synthetics.

I do have a couple that I use for sleeping in when camping as they are pretty cozy and feel nice after a sweaty day.

I've tried expensive and cheap ones and they've all fallen apart equally quickly. 

Post edited at 21:02
 Robert Durran 28 Oct 2020
In reply to DaveHK:

> 2nd that. Just doesn't work at all for me in any activity where I sweat or get wet. It doesn't wick as well and takes much longer to dry than synthetics.

I do use Merino leggings sometimes, but as a top find they it is useless if sweating.

 Bobling 28 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

> Years ago I used to have a M&S lambs wool jumper, you could ring it out and put it back on it was ace, might try one of those

Haha!  I've sworn by one of these for years, I call it my 'high-street-technical' layer.  It's also dapper enough to transition straight from the office to the crag, and then to the pub ; )

My wife spent £££ to buy me an icebreaker long sleeve layer once.  I still use it quite a lot but it has an amazing ability to feel very cold when I put it next to my skin, so I almost never wear it as a base layer, usually over some other base T.  Even so it always makes the inside of my elbows feel freezing!  Anyone else get this?

OP John Kelly 28 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

Merino is getting a kicking tonight

 ring ouzel 28 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

I used cotton t-shirts when I started (1970's) and used to get very cold. HH Lifa was a revelation. It lasts years. Merino I can't stand as its too itchy. I know it isn't meant to be but I just can't wear it.

 Timmd 28 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

I have found that merino can work if it's with something worn over it which has a 'waffle' texture or something pretty absorbent/wicking, like things made by Howies in the past (their waffle mid layer, and some hooded wool tops they made in the past), but for me it seems to hang onto moisture fairly well too, but not to the same degree that cotton does - or it doesn't feel as cold to wear when damn as cotton does, but it's not as quickly dry feeling as synthetic base layers can be.

Not all merino tops are the same, my favourite merino base layer is a woman's top from a charity shop which wasn't intended to be a base layer, there's more 'hollowness' within the weave, and you can't easily tell it's a woman's fit. 

Post edited at 21:40
 wbo2 28 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly: merino isn't as good as synthetic in the very wet, or if you early sweating but it works  a treat for me if its moderate effort, and especially if it gets a bit colder.

 SFM 28 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

I think the trick with merino is what you wear over it. I have a mesh merino base layer for cycling and is always almost dry when I take it off. The exception is if I wear a merino/sportwool jersey over it. 
On the hill if I wear a driclime or the likes over a thin or medium thickness merino base then the dampness factor is low. The same can’t be said if I wear just a wind shirt over it. 

 Dave Garnett 28 Oct 2020
In reply to peppermill:

> I think it's such a personal thing. I don't seem to sweat a great deal (I'm waiting for the obvious jokes.....) and love both the merino and synthetic base layers. The best by far is a Patagonia one I picked up in a sale.

I agree. I have an Arc’teryx top that must be 15 years old and it’s still brilliant for cold stuff like skiing and winter days out.  It’s silver treated and never smells (although I don’t sweat much either!)

 veteye 28 Oct 2020
In reply to DaveHK:

What no-one has mentioned is that synthetics drop millions of particles into the washing machine water every time that you wash them... And contribute to the particles of man-made materials suspended in the seas.

Yes I've got synthetics, that are years old, and they are like old friends. I try not to wash them too often. I don't mind going out for a run in one that is not the freshest, as I'm going to sweat anyway, and it will only be for an hour or so. I still feel guilty when I do actually wash them.

No win-win situation here?

Removed User 29 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

Science here;

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Drying-time-of-different-fabrics-dried-...

I've done the cotton approach shirt thing and compared it to a synthetic approach shirt. The cotton shirt becomes a solid, frozen lump in my pack. The synthetic still ices, but as it hadn't absorbed so much moisture in the first place due to the nature of it's fibres apparently, hadn't become brick like.

All in all I've found Brynje poly mesh base layers the best, both for winter climbing and the fetish clubs I frequent.

 Toerag 29 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

Cotton became the 'death fabric' after an incident where some scouts died wearing jeans on an expedition - their wet jeans essentially became evaporation fridges and sucked the energy out of them in the wind to the extent they got hypothermia and died.

https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/four-inns-hiking-tr...

https://www.theguardian.com/science/the-h-word/2016/jun/30/brecon-beacons-s...

  I suspect a cotton baselayer soaked in sweat under a midlayer and wind/waterproof shell isn't particularly dangerous because the wind can't get at it to evaporate the water. Would be good of someone to test that theory scientifically.

Artificial fibres hold way less water than cotton, when my man-made fibre clothes come out the washing machine they're invariably nearly dry already.  Wool seems better than cotton in this respect, but is definitely nearer to cotton than it is to man-made fibres. My wife tells me bamboo stuff is about as bad as cotton for drying out.  I find man-made fibre base & mid layers unpleasant to wear, sweat seems to condense on my skin whereas cotton actively soaks it up like a sponge.  I suspect the best thing is to carry spare layers and put them on when you get to the top.

Post edited at 02:08
 summo 29 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

Cotton anything is best kept for summer cragging and 20c plus weather. It's just not a viable substitute for anything synthetic. It does ventilated you, doesn't dry or wick, doesn't loft and trap any heat. Worthless.

 girlymonkey 29 Oct 2020
In reply to veteye:

> No win-win situation here?

Get a "Guppy bag"

 girlymonkey 29 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

Wow, I have never heard so many people being anti-merino!

I love merino, I find I sweat less in it than in man made fabrics. I have so many merino tops! Good job there is such a range of kit available to suit all of our different preferences!

1
 Dark-Cloud 29 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

Another merino hater here, awful stuff, it just gets wet then stays that way, and it irritates my skin.

I have had good mileage out of Falke and Odlo base layers, the Odlo Active Warm are lovely as they have a soft brushed inside, I wore one for 5 days of skiing with zero smells.

 Cobra_Head 29 Oct 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

Lots of people hate Jose Merino, it's been a thing for quite sometime.

> Wow, I have never heard so many people being anti-merino!

Lots of people hate Jose Merino, it's been a thing for quite sometime.

1
 Red Rover 29 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

All you need is Buffalo! 

5
 GrahamD 29 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

Other than being pretty useless when wet, I doubt whether cotton shirts are really the death fabric.  Generations of scouts were cotton without coming to too much grief.

I think the real death fabric is cotton denim, because when wearing jeans you generally don't have layers on top to mitigate their uselessness. 

 GraB 29 Oct 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

I'm another merino fan. For hill running I don't generally use it as it does take a bit longer to dry and is heavier and I find a synthetic or a mixed fibre better. But for almost everything else, from winter climbing to ski touring to sea kayaking it does a much better job than synthetic.  I haven't had any problem with any of the merino tops I've got falling apart and I've still got an icebreaker that's probably 15 years old - still going strong and used regularly throughout Autumn through to spring.

The Helly ones which are a merino/ synthetic mix are very good . They hold their shape really well, last for ages and, for me personally, fit my long arms very well. Good value, don't stink after a few days use, but also quite a thick base layer, so I save these for the winter.

I am told (by somebody who knows about wool - my wife) that, while merino does have an unusually fine and long fibre, it definitely isn't unique.  The kiwis really jumped on the marketing much quicker and did a better job than the british - There are British sheep breeds that produce an almost identical fibre, giving a fine and very soft yarn, but we just don't do very good job of marketing them - at least within the outdoor industry. 

 mike123 29 Oct 2020
In reply to GraB: I have two smart wool merino long sleeve tops that I got in a fishers sale some years ago . For me they are useless for anything remotely active as they just turn to a soggy rag . However , just this week  after a cold wet day outside I dug them out and will now wear them arounf house, in turn , ( with washes !) Pretty much until March . Much more comfy than cotton . 

 veteye 29 Oct 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

Trying to be objective: Is there a proper study by an independent third party verifying that these bags actually filter out all the particles , or is the mesh not fine enough to filter the microparticles. The other consideration, is that you get your clothes out of the washer (especially in this hard water area), and find that they are not clean enough, and/or have lime detritis/fur on them.

> Get a "Guppy bag"

 Jon Greengrass 29 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

Merino+synthetic is the truly deadly combination, due to the static that can build up.

I was out shopping for a new jacket, I pulled off the fleece I was wearing over a merino T-shirt to try a jacket on and handed the fleece to my daughter to hold, the bang from the electrostatic discharge between us was so loud everyone in the shop turned around to see that she had been knocked to the floor by the shock and had started screaming.

 girlymonkey 29 Oct 2020
In reply to veteye:

I have certainly removed a build up of particles from mine, so it does filter some. All? Don't know. You don't get lots out every time, so to begin with I wasn't so sure, but after a while I did get a build up in the corners of it. 

I think if clothes are very dirty, washing mud off first under a tap is probably worthwhile. 

My understanding is that smoother synthetics (leggings and some baselayers) shed fewer particles than fleeces and other fluffier synthetics. Maybe not worth it if your synthetic stuff is smoother? Not sure. 

 joshtee25 29 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

Rab MeCo - a blend of merino and synthetic. I've used mine on about 20 different expeditions and climbing trips over the past 6 or 7 years. It has one small hole in the shoulder where I caught it on something, other than that, all but mint condition. Mine's the long sleeved 1/4 zip - lightweight, dries pretty fast (not as fast as pure synthetic, but loads quicker than pure merino). It really is the best of both worlds - or at least, a very good balance of the two.

 jpicksley 29 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

I read this thread in the hope it might help me but I'm not sure it does. I've come to the conclusion that nothing works well for me and the only reason I can come up with is that I appear to just sweat massively (nice!). I have synthetic and merino base layers and they just become a soaking mess and don't dry and freeze on me. I've discussed it and experimented and nothing works. I get to the bottom of a crag or the top of a mountain and if I don't change I get cold straight away and the base layers don't dry. My solution is to take a spare base layer and change at a sensible point, summer and winter. It's well worth the 2 seconds of exposure to have a nice clean, dry base layer on. The only top I don't have to do this with is a buffalo top. It get wet but then I shut all the vents and it does stay warm and sort of dry off. The problem with that is it's a deep winter top and requires about -10/-15 to work well, otherwise I overheat way too much. I think it might be my time of life.

 Frank R. 29 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

Merino is like Paramo - some people swear by it, others just hate it! I guess it depends much on how much you sweat, rate of energy exertion and conditions. There might be a "sweat" spot where it works just great  

I love merino for milder activities and daily commute. It's also great for sleeping in.

I don't like it so much for summer stuff, even hillwalking where it can be nice and toasty, since whenever it's a bit windy and I take off my pack, my drenched back is now evaporation fridge.

I hate it for winter stuff where I exert myself more, since I am still drenched, cold and it doesn't dry out at all in these conditions. Whereas with a well chosen synthetic combo (e.g. something like Allez hoodie and some permeable light Polartec Alpha or Primaloft jacket) if I drench it with sweat I can usually dry it out by walking or from wind and be perfectly warm and dry inside by the time I set camp (if smelly). But I still love it in winter for daily commute.

 JohnBson 29 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

Wore polycotton fabrics for years in shit conditions, soaked to the bone for hours lying face down in the snowy highlands. It's all about how you layer, that said, when you're going fast and light in the mountains you aren't going to carry the layers, or sometimes food, needed to sustain yourself because it's a trade off. No one carries 50kg of kit with them for a winter climb. It's horses for courses and cottons have their place. I'd certainly look at them more closely if you want durability, say a multiday, self supported. expedition with a lot of mileage where you may need to repair your equipment by hand, something impossible with most technical garments.

 Frank R. 29 Oct 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

The environmental aspects might be more complicated nowadays, unlike back when woollen clothing was sourced locally and lasted for a decade (your granny's sweater). Now, my Icebreaker t-shirt lasts me around 2 years tops before it gets full of holes in the worst places (usually the lower back from backpack or pants). And it's not sourced locally, unless you live in NZ. Conversely, I still frequently wear my ~15 year old "spring" Byrne-like long sleeves made from oil (so possibly more friendly than many merino t-shirts over its lifetime). Microplastics are something else, of course. The 15 years of washing it must have released a "ton", before Guppy sacks were a thing

 Basemetal 29 Oct 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Merino is rubbish. Just turns into a waterlogged mass. 

I've always understood the benefit of merino (or any other wool) to be that it can absorb moisture while retaining its insulating capacity when wet. It doesn't promise 'dry' so much as comfort. 

There seems to be confusion about its ability to wick moisture away from your skin, which isn't its primary ability as it would rely on surface evaporation to dry from the outside. Synthetic base layers  on the other hand can be designed to major on wicking  moisture through their thickness, though when sodden they tend to insulate less than damp wool. 

I tend to choose between a merino T-shirt and a Brynge synthetic string vest depending on how actively wet I think I'm going to get. I do find merino boxers a lot more comfortable than damp cotton though.  

 aostaman 29 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

The interesting part of this thread (for me) is the the discussion re Merino wool (MW). I first became aware of it about 15 years ago when my friends (ski-ing) shop in Italy started stocking the stuff. It was from New Zealand and was eye wateringly expensive. I started asking around, none of the guides/ski teachers (admittedly I didn't know many then) used it which I thought was odd. I was a bit intrigued by this and would ask any local climbers and ski tourers if they'd tried it. As we on this forum know, people like us can talk about gear until the day that Covid gives up and dies. Ask a question and everything you want to know tumbles out. So the main Italian buyers were the weekenders from Turin/Milan and holiday Brits (No pejorative there, I'd been one for 25 years) and the main feedback was expensive, warm, doesn't smell but shrinks, and it was the last thing that really made it pointless.

I'd bought some cheap 'Great Escapes' leg thermals. Great Escapes is a brand you find in Italian street markets, a bit like 'Regatta' or 'Dare to Be'. I also used a long sleeved clima cool thing I'd picked up in TK Maxx. I wore them almost every day for 3 seasons and I still have them. 

Back in Cornwall a few years ago, a local brand was selling MW tops at less than half price, OK then let's try it. My loving wifeliness, followed the instructions to the letter, it shrank, then I received two as Christmas presents, they shrank but not so badly. I did buy one successfully a Norrona one from Bergfreunde. That's OK and also the one from Mountain Warehouse which was the cheapest. 

Actually I love them around the house, much more comfortable than central heating and post surfing with a windproof fantastic.

I've tried them with ski-ing, ski touring, climbing, cycling, and I've found them ***ing useless, they get damp, don't dry but worst of all they shrink, I never even got to the holes stage.

My conclusion is that they are a bit of an Emperors Clothes of our World sold heavily on the 'eco' theme to justify the price tag. They are very comfy on the sofa however and standing still watching a footie match. Start moving around however and for me you can't beat synthetics.

 Babika 29 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

A friend of mine got choppered of NW face of Half Dome many years ago when a freak storm hit and he was 100m from the top. The pilot referred to his cotton tee shirt as "death". 

Its synthetic all the way for me in cold wet weather. Or even warm - just loose or sleeveless tech. Soooooo much better

 Toerag 29 Oct 2020
In reply to aostaman:

> Back in Cornwall a few years ago, a local brand was selling MW tops at less than half price, OK then let's try it. My loving wifeliness, followed the instructions to the letter, it shrank, then I received two as Christmas presents, they shrank but not so badly.

How hot were you washing them? None of the icebreaker stuff my family has has shrunk but it gets washed at 30 and tumbledried cool (if at all). Heat is what shrinks wool.

 Toerag 29 Oct 2020
In reply to Basemetal:

> I've always understood the benefit of merino (or any other wool) to be that it can absorb moisture while retaining its insulating capacity when wet. It doesn't promise 'dry' so much as comfort. 

The big thing that merino has for baselayer use is none-itchiness - the fibres don't have the scales on them that other wool does, and thus it's not itchy. In the old days no-one would use wool baselayers because of the itchiness, but once merino eliminated that and added the antibacterial properties which stop it smelling like cotton or polypropylene it gained a following from people who didn't like smelly hellys and did like natural fibres.

 GraB 29 Oct 2020
In reply to Toerag:

Heat and agitation are what causes wool to shrink and become mishaped. A wool cycle on a modern washing machine is a very gentle cycle  at a cool temperature. 

Its also a bad idea to mix wool thermals with garments which are much heavier weight that will hold on to water - jeans for example - as the heavier things can knock the lighter woollens around and cause shrinkage that way. 

Post edited at 14:40
 Root1 29 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

Paramo gridded fleece is excellent as a base layer, it drys quickly and feels comfortable after sweating in it. The hoody version is brilliant and cooler than a R1.

 Frank R. 29 Oct 2020

Perhaps the problem was the heavy & unrealistic marketing of Merino Wool to the masses as a panacea for every outdoor situation. From dogsledding in -30C across the frozen wastes for weeks to hiking to resort skiing. Which is, of course, nonsense.

And so people started layering over MW just as with synthetics they were used to, not ideal either.

I guess there is a "sweatspot" for MW, different for everybody. But high sweat followed by little movement it certainly ain't.

While it seems to retain some insulation when wet, isn't that by trapping the water inside the individual fibres while the fibre surface remained hydrophobic, or something like that? That water can't transport effectively to any outer layer to evaporate, even if it's still much drier and warmer than cotton. So maybe not really suited for a thin base-layer if you sweat much.

I still like my thick itchy sweaters, though. Might it be that their much more open knitting helps with sweat and moisture as well?

In reply to John Kelly:

"Death fabric" is over egging it somewhat but there have been recorded instances I believe where serious cases of hyperthermia have been attributed to cotton tee shirts and denim jeans. I can tell the difference when I've been out on my mountain bike.  If I wear cotton I need to change before I drive home but if I wear a high wicking synthetic I don't.

Al

Post edited at 15:08
 kamala 29 Oct 2020
In reply to GrahamD:

Yes, and think of the cotton ventile they used on Everest back in the 1950s. Not quite the same as a cotton t-shirt but still...

I used to do fieldwork in cotton corduroy trousers. In foul weather, maybe thermal leggings under and (non-breathable) waterproofs over the top. Winter climbing kit was a thermal underlayer, plus two cotton t-shirts plus a cotton sweatshirt - two if really cold - and the Goretex top I'd graduated to. The plan in winter was not to get wet...mostly worked until that time I fell through the ice into a small stream...we still got our climb in, though. I was more hardy in those days!

 DaveHK 29 Oct 2020
In reply to Frank R.:

> Perhaps the problem was the heavy & unrealistic marketing of Merino Wool to the masses as a panacea for every outdoor situation. From dogsledding in -30C across the frozen wastes for weeks to hiking to resort skiing. Which is, of course, nonsense.

That was definitely part of the problem. I tried it because it was touted as a wonder fabric and I knew a few people who really liked it.

In reply to Toerag:

> The big thing that merino has for baselayer use is none-itchiness - the fibres don't have the scales on them that other wool does, and thus it's not itchy. In the old days no-one would use wool baselayers because of the itchiness, but once merino eliminated that and added the antibacterial properties which stop it smelling like cotton or polypropylene it gained a following from people who didn't like smelly hellys and did like natural fibres.

Sorry, I beg to differ. I find all wool unbearably itchy, including merino. I'd never voluntarily wear wool of any sort in any layer, and for a base layer it's akin to expensive torture. Plus I find merino base layers get damp, and soon lose their shape (and I've probably tried a few in the line of duty). I don't mind smelling and really don't think you can beat synthetics for practicality and longevity.  

OP John Kelly 29 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

Wet day so perfect to test out some of the suggestion 

I went hunt for my Patagonia base layer only to discover been upcycled by daughter, it's trendy!!

Discovered an old ME fleece, chucked it on under the 'waterproofs' and went shopping, about 6 miles on the bike with the boy - worked really well, properly soaked by the time I got home but warm and relatively comfortable, winner.

In the interests of balance went for a bit of a walk after lunch (again lashing down) in a cheap as chips decathlon fleece again worked a treat, I was taking a few snaps so traipsing up hill quite slowly, if your in a rush probably a bit warm. 

Think I've found my new wet day layer.

Post edited at 18:49
Removed User 29 Oct 2020
In reply to jpicksley:

> I read this thread in the hope it might help me but I'm not sure it does. I've come to the conclusion that nothing works well for me and the only reason I can come up with is that I appear to just sweat massively (nice!). I have synthetic and merino base layers and they just become a soaking mess and don't dry and freeze on me. I've discussed it and experimented and nothing works. I get to the bottom of a crag or the top of a mountain and if I don't change I get cold straight away and the base layers don't dry. My solution is to take a spare base layer and change at a sensible point, summer and winter. It's well worth the 2 seconds of exposure to have a nice clean, dry base layer on. The only top I don't have to do this with is a buffalo top. It get wet but then I shut all the vents and it does stay warm and sort of dry off. The problem with that is it's a deep winter top and requires about -10/-15 to work well, otherwise I overheat way too much. I think it might be my time of life.

Mesh has been suggested several times, try that. It's good enough for the Norwegian Marinejegerkommando. 

 webbo 29 Oct 2020
In reply to Removed Userwaitout:

But do they actually wear it. Lots of the kit supplied to UK troops they don’t use and they buy their own.

Removed User 30 Oct 2020
In reply to webbo:

> But do they actually wear it. Lots of the kit supplied to UK troops they don’t use and they buy their own.

That has a lot to do with the UK kit...

The Mjk do use it as standard, and it's common for civilian use as well. UK military sent to Norway have been known to trade and pilfer the stuff. I was given a set by a guy who is best described as a very polite Viking, who wore it under a dry suit. More than one military has an interest in the stuff.

It's been extolled for years by expedition climbers, the likes of Andy Kirkpatrick etc, and several companies like The North Face and Millet have produced versions for what that's worth.

 ogreville 30 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

I have no issue with cotton. Happy to strip down to a thin cotton T-shirt (or T and thin waterproof) when going uphill, then on with the heavy layers when up there and descending- Dry as a bone all day. Never understood people who get kitted up in the carpark and that’s them for they day. Then they start complaining about being hot/cold/sweaty.  There is no magic bullet all day layering combo that will keep you warm, cool, bone-dry and fresh, so theres no point in looking. Not sweating in the first place is the key in my opinion (easier for some folk than others). Involves many stops and more faff, and bringing a variety of lightweight layer options, but it works well for me. 

Post edited at 07:19
In reply to John Kelly:

Agree with many: 

- cotton is useless for hill/ cardio pursuits unless it's all you've got

- synthetic base layers are the go to

- merino wets out for hi cardio work.  However, I like a merino t shirt over synthetic L/S when running in the cold (less wetting out and some windproofness?). Also merino for modest cardio/ lightweight layering.  Limited or no shrinkage on half dozen merino t's and L/S I own.  Store in plastic bag and generally treat with care to limit exposure to mites or whatever eats holes in it.

- I need to try the Brynje 

Post edited at 07:38
 jpicksley 30 Oct 2020
In reply to Removed Userwaitout:

Yes, I noticed that and checked some out on the web. I'll look into it further. Cheers.

Removed User 30 Oct 2020
In reply to jpicksley:

Yes that's the stuff. An extensive range.

Have a cover story ready for when you have to explain it...

 jpicksley 30 Oct 2020
In reply to Removed Userwaitout:

Cool. Thank you. Will order it under your name 

 Timmd 30 Oct 2020
In reply to Toerag:

> I suspect the best thing is to carry spare layers and put them on when you get to the top.

...you mean alter clothing while exposed to the wind and stationary? Brrrr shudder.

Removed User 30 Oct 2020
In reply to jpicksley:

> Cool. Thank you. Will order it under your name 

You're choosing the pink and tasseled ones too then? 

 jpicksley 30 Oct 2020
In reply to Removed Userwaitout:

I think I can pull that off, so yes.

 Ridge 30 Oct 2020
In reply to Removed Userwaitout:

> Yes that's the stuff. An extensive range.

> Have a cover story ready for when you have to explain it...

I can see Booties of all nationalities being interested in that sort of apparel.

 jpicksley 30 Oct 2020
In reply to Timmd:

Do it fast and it's fine. Can be quite invigorating. A bit like getting in the sea. For me it's well worth the brief exposure as it has a very positive effect both physically and pyschologically. Try it, you might be surprised and like it

 Timmd 30 Oct 2020
In reply to jpicksley:  I reckon I'm too attached to the 'warm fug' feeling of sorted layering.

Post edited at 12:50
 wbo2 30 Oct 2020
In reply to webbo:

> But do they actually wear it. Lots of the kit supplied to UK troops they don’t use and they buy their own.

The recently retired one sitting opposite me says yes

In reply to John Kelly:

I would not, typically, expect the wicking layer to do much in the way of insulation.  I look to a separate layer to provide that.  In extreme cold I have however used thicker "powerstretch" material rather than a thin synthetic to give added insulation but this is beginning to deviate from the flexibility of the layering principle IMO. I wouldn't want to be wearing powerstretch on an alpine approach in summer for example.

Al

 LastBoyScout 30 Oct 2020
In reply to bouldery bits:

> I've never been impressed by merino stuff. I find it doesn't survive washing too well whereas one of my Smelly Helly Lifa tops is from around 2005 and still going strong.

My Lowe Alpine DRYflo stuff is decades old and refuses to show any signs of wear, apart from a bit of loose stitching on the hem - same with some Nike running tops I've got.

That said, I have been slightly converted to merino, having bought some IceBreaker stuff for bike touring, where washing it was going to be an issue. It did get a bit damp, but dried rapidly and, importantly, didn't smell at all for the trip. I've got friends that wear it all the time as casual stuff in a size up.

> The soggy cotton t shirt thing I did once as a youth and never again!

Yeah - wet cotton is cold, heavy and just sticks to your skin.

 jpicksley 30 Oct 2020
In reply to Timmd:

I can't really work it out. I layer my clothing and think I've got it pretty well managed but I still get a chill from my base layer due to sweating the hell out of it and really feel it. Does everyone get that and just deal with it? Am I being a drama queen? Are my base layers crap? Or have I got an unfortunate sweat problem?

I think I might try the mesh tops. I've tried lots of other makes so I might as well.

 GrahamD 30 Oct 2020
In reply to jpicksley:

Base layers definitely work best if they're really snug fitting.  Might be worth thinking about.  Having said that I'm still regularly using a 25 year old MEC baselayer which is decidedly not snug fit these days.

 jpicksley 30 Oct 2020
In reply to GrahamD:

A 25 year old base layer sends shudders down my spine. Appreciate the advice. All my base layers are snug and in good condition. I think that unfortunately my fundamental problem is that I sweat like a dirty whore (or a certain old pop singer in a certain shop that sells childrens clothes, if you get my drift).

 Timmd 30 Oct 2020
In reply to jpicksley: Have you tried not trying to be dry, but settling for damp but warm? I've concluded that UK weather often means that 'dry' isn't possible, because it's either damp because of what I'm emitting, or it's damp outside which means my dampness won't escape as easily, and warmth is the key rather than dryness. If I overdress for a cycle, I'll unzip my top and mid layer, and zip them up when I'm further out in the Peak, so long as I'm warm I don't mind dampness. 

Post edited at 17:34
In reply to John Kelly:

> Can't tell the difference between cotton and merino in use both great when dry, crap when wet

> All my merino shirts have shrunk

> Years ago I used to have a M&S lambs wool jumper, you could ring it out and put it back on it was ace, might try one of those


I use a merino (Icebreaker) base layer for my cycle commute to work (sub 12C) after 15 years it still looks as good as new, needs washing monthly or less.

 Webster 30 Oct 2020
In reply to John Kelly:

100% wool absorbs and holds water like a sponge, so bad for active use, but thats not what it is designed for! some kind of merino blend (i.e. rab MeCo, Montane PriMino or icebreaker active use lines) is excelent however. yes absorbs water, but dries quickly, is really comfy and doesnt cling to you with static like some synthetic layers do when layered up. the notion that it doesnt smell is bollocks, its not magic! but it does small allot less, and if properly aired out it can be virtually smell free after use.

Removed User 30 Oct 2020
In reply to jpicksley:

> I sweat like a dirty whore (or a certain old pop singer in a certain shop that sells childrens clothes, if you get my drift).

Those Brynje are going to be perfect. Maybe get a climbing pair and a 'good' pair.

 Timmd 31 Oct 2020
In reply to jpicksley:

I think I've realised that  I sometimes allow for the dampness (and cooling effect) of merino by having enough layers with zips to allow me to not overheat, and not get too cold. It might be cheaper not to if starting from scratch, but it's a system I've arrived at thanks to buying different things on impulse, and liking merino base layers. 

 jpicksley 09 Nov 2020
In reply to Timmd:

Hi - I don't try to be dry, I just don't like being cold which always seems to happen and on some occasions I've felt that I'm getting a bit too cold for safety. I have tight fitting base layers and layer my clothing and do everything on here that people suggest but I still get too cold for comfort unless I change my base layer and they don't dry out very well so I stay cold. BUT, the good news is I've purchased a Brynje mesh long sleeve base layer and tried it on Saturday. It appeared to make a large difference and I was very impressed. It got wet, particularly on the back, which I expected but I never got cold from the base layer and it appeared to dry much faster than anything else I've ever tried. So a big thank you to everyone who recommended the Brynje/the idea of a string vest!

PS The only issue is that it made me look like I was into S&M. Which I'm not. Honest.


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