UKH

Since this was last raised there seem to be a lot more crack gloves on the market. Would anyone be able to advise on what their favorite glove is and why? 

I'm not a competent crack climber (trying to learn) so the amount of protection the glove offers is probably more relevant than how durable it is or the price. The sensation of jamming being v.painful is a gating item at the moment, so thought I would give gloves a go.

I'm sure a number of people will advise not to use them, but I work in a corporate client-facing job and looking like I have some sort of horrendous skin condition affecting the backs of my hands isn't an option!

(p.s. bonus points for suggestions on which shops in London stock a good range?)

In reply to Eduardo2010:

Best all round- Wideboyz

Thin cracks - Black Diamond

The Ocuns have the best closure mechanism, but lack thumb coverage for fists.

They all stretch a bit, so buy small.

-Can't help with London  stockists, I'd advise moving somewhere sensible

In reply to Eduardo2010:

My mate has BD and loves them due to more coverage but I think they look a bit flimsy. Myself and my wife use the Ocun and find them great, no scars.

In reply to Eduardo2010:

I'm sure I'll get downvoted for this BUT have you tried taping at all? I have crack gloves (Ocun ones) and have found them useful when cracks were wet (not on grit, don't get your knick knacks in a twist) but for everyday cracks I really much prefer using my tape gloves. They're not as wasteful as you might think because you only have to do a couple of wraps around the wrist each time and re-use the rest of it. 

There's a good video on the net of Beth Rodden demonstrating how to make re-usable ones. 

Others may have differing opinions but personally I prefer them because:

• They're less forgiving and grippy so force your jamming technique to get better
• They feel less clumsy and chunky
• They don't really add anything to the size of your hand, so when the crux of a route is greens you aren't utterly shut down by it (I have meat paws)
• They're cheap
• You don't feel like you've had as much of an artificial advantage over the climb (I know this will upset some people and they'll shout "I suppose you don't wear sticky rubber or use chalk!?) but it does, for me, feel like more of an accomplishment if I climb a jamming route without gloves. 
• They're more sensitive so you feel what you're doing more 

Now it isn't all positives. Here is the reverse of the coin:

• I have had the wrist tape (when lazily not wrapped enough) snap mid-climb and totally do me. Nothing worse than a little flappy cape attached to your hand
• They're not as beefy so if you're jamming something pebbly rather than just abrasive, you will feel every bit of it
• You may start to swan around the place with an air of arrogance and scoff at others wearing rubber crack gloves, urging them to reconsider on internet forums perhaps

Also, if you are new to crack climbing, don't worry too much about the damage to the backs of your hands, it will get less as you get better. My friend John is much better than me and I'm always amazed how he seconds me up proper graunchy climbs unscathed whilst I'm drizzling claret down the crag.

In reply to Eduardo2010:

I'd suggest you are maybe trying jamming tests that are too hard for you if it hurts and cuts your hands. My advice to those new to the hand/fist jamming game was always to climb lines well below a typical standard grade that have cracks and breaks of that size and try never to pass a jam without using it: taking care to place and release the jam carefully and getting used to only use just enough pressure to ensure the jam is secure, and also getting used to the experience that jams really can give a real rest to fingers and pumped forearms.

I've never used gloves or 'taping up' other than as an occasional experiment as I found they limited my ability to use my hands on other moves away from the jams, most others find them a usuful extra tool.

In reply to Offwidth:

I disagree, or at least that has not been my experience regardless of the grade. Some kind of skin protection makes crack climbing both more enjoyable and more hygienic, and most competent crack climbers that I know are of a similar opinion.

For me personally it usually takes only one or two unprotected jams to pretty much write off crack climbing for a week or so.

In reply to PaulJepson:

This is just not true, and if some people find they are more resilient than others, I'd guess it's more likely down to genetics than competence.

Fairly easy counter example, ask Pete Whittaker or Mary Eden their opinions on taping up.

In reply to planetmarshall:

I think there is an element of truth to both sides. I feel like I could climb a grit VS jamming crack without gloves and come out unscathed, whereas two years ago when I was a limestone darling there would be absolutely no chance of it. An HVS now probably less so and an E1 definitely not. 

That being said, should you not attempt a climb which is hard for you because you'll lose some skin to it? I don't think I'd have ever got better if I didn't climb jamming cracks that I didn't have a fight with. 

In reply to Eduardo2010: I've previously used the Ocun gloves.  Nice to wear, but the fastening strap tends to break (on the 'loop' side.  A repair can be bodged, but has a limited life span.  I wish they were sturdier.

I have the wideboyz gloves.  Sturdier, maybe a touch less sensitive 

If a jam is solid then you don't need them, but if there's a lot of jamming, or they're flared, or somehow a bit wobbly it saves you getting chewed up.  Which means more climbing, and more climbing is better.

In reply to PaulJepson:

I don't think this is true - and technique has more to do with the shapes you form with your hands rather than what you cover them with. Personally I think protecting your hands makes you better able to employ a wider variety of techniques.

On the contrary, you can build up many layers of tape on your hands if required.

This kind of thing just no longer crosses my mind. I'd rather just enjoy climbing.

An additional consideration is the additional pain if you have any hair at all on the backs of your hands or wrists. I need to shave to use tape, or endure the "waxing effect" when it comes off.

In reply to planetmarshall:

We will have to respectfully disagree. Mainly as I've seen too many supposedly 'learning' jamming by immediately taking a significant proportion of bodyweight, whereas if you drop grades most weight will be through the feet and it gives a much more pleasant way of gaining a feel for what works.

My skin on the back of my hands gets more fragile with age but almost every time I get damaged it's though trying hard or being worried: when I'm relaxed things are OK. My jamming grade for trying hard has always been pretty consistent with my lead grade.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Re-usable gloves lose their tackyness after 2 or 3 goes out and then it's only your wrists you need to worry about. 

Obviously case in point that it is all down to personal preference and I was expecting some push-back!

However, most climbers have a roll of tape and if you don't it's £3. No one loses anything by giving tape a go first.

I'd also say about the pro-climbers you mentioned - they tape up yes but they are climbing things that are hard for them. Do you think Pete Whittaker would lose skin on The File?

In reply to PaulJepson:

That's the worst part!

Fair point, and Pete has certainly soloed the File without taping up, but that's something like 12 grades below his maximum effort. It's about 5 grades below mine, and I'd still tape up for it.

In reply to Eduardo2010:

I've had Ocuns a while and prefer the thickness over Wideboyz, which I haven't had as long. Ocuns do seem flimsier though.

In reply to Offwidth:

You've never been to Ardmair have you?  

In reply to DaveHK:

Of course I have....great place but very burly. It was not as bad as some Peak or Yorkshire  Moorland grit where I helped on guidebooks: really nasty sharp crystals and dirt

In reply to Offwidth:

The problem at Ardmair is the pebbles in the cracks, even easier routes can trash your hands.

In reply to Eduardo2010:

I wrote this 6 years ago https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/climbing/accessories/crack_gloves_from_or_a... The Ocun gloves still look pretty close to new despite getting used regularly - I use them almost every time I climb on grit, my local rock, including when I'm soloing easy routes, which as my logbook shows, I do quite a lot. 

The OR ones wore much more dramatically and more quickly. When the wrist strap had nearly worn through and the velcro started delaminating I contacted OR's warranty department to see if the supposedly great warranty was all that it cracked up to be. They responded and said they would replace them this time, through their UK team but the person I emailed with said the following:

"Just a heads up, these crack gloves are made to get shredded. Our professional climbers say they should last about 14 pitches. Happy to help you with them this time! Just want to let you know that, going forward, we can't necessarily replace them once they get thrashed going forward, as our warranty does not cover wear and tear."

As it turned out the UK distributors didn't have spares in stock, so suggested taking them back to the shop where I had bought them for replacement or refund, although obviously I couldn't do that as they had been sent to me for UKC review! I've semi fixed them with some glue and, ironically, finger tape - enough to keep using them occasionally anyway. But the warranty is obviously limited to not include wear and tear which, of course, crack gloves are going to get! This is all moot anyway because it seems you can't get them in the UK anymore, although OR do seem to still make them in the US. I've not tried the BD ones, but they look closer in the lighter and thinner style to the OR ones than to the Ocun (and also the old Singing Rock model). I'm interested to hear how well the BD ones wear for regular users. I friend has the Wide Boyz ones, I've not tried them, but they look closer to the Ocun ones.

I can say though that even if we take 14 pitches to be proper full rope length pitches, so 600 - 700 mtrs, I suspect my OR have done more than that. They have their own advantages such as being light and compact, easy to shove in a pocket on long routes should you need them, or - as I do now, kept in a placcy bag with my "sport climbing" chalk bag (don't ask! ) for when you realise that a sport route you're about to do looks suspiciously like- and easier as- a crack climb! Anyone who has Pearls from the Shell (6a+) will know what I mean.

In reply to DaveHK:

I'll see you both, and raise you Helsinki region granite, where God was having an off day and decided to fill the cracks with needle sharp quartz crystals; clearly as some kind of  punishment for the yet uncommitted sins of future climberkind.

In reply to TobyA:

Lol.

In reply to Eduardo2010:

I’m on my second pair of ocuns, they work well for me by I’ve not tried any others. My gloves live in the pocket of my climbing trousers so I can put them on mid route if needed, an advantage over tape. 

Offwidth, you’re right, the skin on the back of your hands thins with age, I now find that if I jam without the gloves they almost invariably cut no matter how careful I am. Using gloves makes jamming pleasurable. 

In reply to planetmarshall:

Alex Honnold is about as competent as they come and climbs thousands of feet of granite cracks without gloves or taping up - and doesn't cut his hands at all, as far as I can see. Totally amazing!

In reply to Eduardo2010:

I like the ocuns for good hands, beefier jams...longer routes with nothing too hard.
For more technical cracks the BD's are better, the ocuns are a hinderance for thin-hands sizes.
For really technical cracks (stacks, thin thin-hands etc.) I'll usually tape.
Edit: oooops. meant OR I don't like the BD's.

In reply to Eduardo2010:

Tom Randall mentioned a little while ago that he wished he'd used crack gloves way more often because now the skin on the back of his hands is much more fragile and gets damaged far quicker. 

Personally I've got big hands and so use the BD gloves for most things. I'd be keen to get some of the Wideboyz gloves but currently I get the BD at trade price so it's a no brainer. They're vastly better than the Ocun in every respect apart from they don't offer the chance to expand hand size in a baggy crack. Unless it's a consistent splitter this doesn't usually bother me as I'll just adapt with technique. 

The fabric on the inside of the Ocun also damages my hands when jamming hard so in general the BD is just much better all round. Personally I've not felt limited enough by any slippage to justify using tape regularly (up to 7b-cish cracks). 

In reply to planetmarshall:

Am amazed. Am not trying to be sarky but are you sure you're doing it right?

Mick 

In reply to John Stainforth:

Alex does also credit some of his climbing success to having incredibly healthy skin which doesn't wear out easily.

I've done 40+ pitches in the BD gloves. They aren't white anymore but they haven't shown any signs of wear. OR claiming a glove should only last 14 pitches is outrageous, well made tape gloves last far longer than that.

In reply to Mark Collins:

By contrast, I had a pair of Ocuns (original not lite version) which survived for >3k vertical metres. Whereas my WideBoyz gloves did not last anywhere near that long, maybe 10 routes. I did hear that that they had a problem with the manufacturing of the first batch. I've since ended up with another pair of WideBoyz, and they have lasted longer without any damage, haven't worn them enough to see how they do compared with the Ocuns though.

To the OP: I'd buy the BD ones, they're the cheapest and are very good, though do definitely have some flaws in the rubber coverage. Tbhz all of the gloves have flaws, I think there's still a long way to go in terms of reaching the optimal crack glove design.

Thanks all! This is v helpful.

I'll have a look through the internet with all of this in mind... also thanks to PaulJ re taping - definitely a consideration. Agree a better aesthetic.

In reply to Eduardo2010:

I'm not sure you can get the in the UK, but I'm a bit of a convert to the G7 ones from Squamish.

I went on a trip to the Bugaboos last year. Up until now I've either gone bare hand, or tape gloves. (I've climbed many km of crack).

I had mates complain about the Ocun ones, being a bit clunky and the wrist straps cutting in a bit so I didn't fancy them.

Other mades have had ok success with the BD ones. I tried both in the shop in Squamish and just felt the G7 fitted my hands better. Also, the guy I was with on that trip got a bit annoyed With the BD one's Velcro placement - it can catch mid pitch and open the glove.

I never got a chance to try the WideBoyz ones as they were out of stock.

Only downsides with the G7 are: expensive, hard to get in uk, thumb loop can get baggy and at risk of hooking karabiners (had this mid pitch with tape gloves and DAMN, that's hard to undo one-handed). Also, in thin hands they can ride up a bit. If you're getting into specialist sizes at Indian creek, they may not be so good.  NOt a lot of thumb protection - so if you know it's going to be gnarly fists, then you need to add some tape in that area. BD and WideBoyz better in this regard.

What's good - lovely feel. The leather is a great blend of comfort, grip and sensitivity. Close to a good tape glove. Tough - seem to take a beating, thick velcro strap. Very comfy. Not too sweaty as the leather allows som breathability. 

https://www.grade7.com/pages/hand-jam

In reply to MischaHY:

Have to bear in mind, of course, that he does sell crack gloves! And has also probably spent more time with his hands in cracks than at least 99% of other climbers. Skin naturally gets more easily damaged as people age anyway, though I guess he's not all that old yet.

In reply to Luke90:

It's worth also bearing in mind that approximately one half of the population has significantly thicker and tougher skin than the other half, though it does vary where on the body you measure it.

In reply to Mick Ward:

I was thinking the same thing Mick. My grit apprenticeship was brutal, but as I learned the technique, damage to my hands pretty well stopped. 

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

Indeed, Paul. After a  while something just seems to click and you start to get the hang of it. 

Though, as with all else, there's skill fade. I was jamming in some quite painful, as yet unclimbed cracks last night and not making a great fist(!) of it. They were quite technical jams though. Skin grazed but not broken. Fine this morning. 

I remember two great guys, Scruff and Dick (the Hounslow Tigers), trying to teach me how to jam on the crack on the Cwm Glas boulder. I couldn't get the hang of it. My girlfriend, Maggie, came to the door of the hut and shouted, "Your tea's ready!" I ignored her. Had another go. And another. Was nowhere. 

Then Scruff very gently said, "Mick, I think your tea's ready..."  The ultimate in face saving excuses. I slunk off. 

Came back a couple of years later after a Yorkshire gritstone apprenticeship (as you say, brutal). Couldn't believe how straightforward that crack was. 

We're all learning...

Mick 

In reply to Mick Ward:

In your writing, you normally see the past with very clear eyes Mick, but with the reference to your girlfriend making your tea for you, that feels uncomfortably like a "when men were men and we all had thicker skin than the kids these days" sort of story.

I think it's worthy of note that taping up started with Americans where it looks like in some areas the cracks are more sustained and considerably longer than those in the UK. I first made tape gloves on my second trip to Lofoten where many of the routes at grades I can climb are sustained crack lines. I suspect on Heather Wall (VS 4c) (which when I last did it, struck me as so polished the jams were super very skin friendly anyway), even if you climb it like me which is to jam at every possibility you are maybe doing half a dozen to dozen jams? In comparison, a 45 mtr crack pitch on granite - you at a  guess might be doing a hundred jams. So you can get away with it on grit more, just because you do fewer jams.

But clearly some people are more prone to damaging their hands, maybe because of differences with technique and maybe because of physiological differences. I do remember (I hope correctly!) a column in OTE by Steve McClure where he in passing noted the team doctor for the UK climbing squad had mentioned that women have thinner skin on their hands then men) so it makes sense for them to tape or use gloves so they can enjoy climbing more. That seems a perfectly sensible attitude to take to anyone who chooses to wear gloves, or a kneepad, or high top boots (which seem to be another modern-retro trend), use a clip stick etc.

In reply to TobyA:

Hmm... you seem to be conflating several themes. Maggie chose to make the tea; I certainly didn't expect it. Re 'when men were men...', the generations which were immeasurably harder than mine were those of my father and grandfather - the World War II and I generations respectively. (But I seem to remember from previous correspondence that you don't like any mention of war.)

Re crack gloves, once any technical innovation is out (wires, cams, chalk, pads...) everyone and their dog will end up using them - whether they're needed or not (e.g. beginners with chalk?) I regularly see videos of people using crack gloves who don't seem very proficient at jamming. And using crack gloves may not help them to get better? Surely if you're learning to jam, you want to get the feel of it...

Re using gloves for long crack systems, makes perfect sense. And if people use them on short routes, where's the harm? But it might make sense to learn to jam first. 

Mick 

In reply to Mick Ward:

What? Beginners don't sweat?!

Yep, that'd be me. (Well, not on video.) Started out trad climbing on Dartmoor granite with big sharp crystals in rounded breaks and found jamming really unpleasant and off-putting. Never really got past that even once I moved to other rock because I'd already got in the habit of going to great lengths to avoid it. On easy jamming routes that should have been good to learn on, I would still distrust the jams and found them easy to avoid. On routes hard enough that avoiding the jamming wasn't an option, I would just get shut down.

But getting gloves made a huge difference. I can see the argument that you could fail to learn good technique by not being punished for bad technique, but what I actually found was that making it easier to get something useful out of a jam encouraged me to stick with it and actually use jams, which meant I actually learned a fair bit. I'm still pretty mediocre at jamming, and fist-sized or bigger remain a nightmare, but I actually sometimes enjoy a jam now, even using good ones by choice when there are other options that I would previously have preferred. Including when I'm not actually wearing the gloves.

Different strokes for different folks, but for me the gloves were the way to learn to jam. Partly for comfort, but mostly because they lower the barrier to entry by helping your jams to stick. And it's not like they're magic, so you can't get away with just sticking your hand in the crack any old way. They help a mediocre jam to feel plausible enough to keep trying, but they still reward playing around to improve the technique and make the jam more solid.

In reply to Luke90:

Would think Dartmoor (or Ramshaw) would be the worst place to learn jamming. I would suggest somewhere like Stanage on routes where you don't have to jam but you can use jams.  

Beginners can sweat as much as they like. In my experience, chalk bags are simply part of their perceived 'climbing uniform' and they put on chalk simply when it occurs to them that they should be putting on chalk. But if you haven't learned to read the rock, is chalk going to make much difference? And if you're on jugs is chalk going to make much difference?

I see the same thing with pads, people slinging down pads seemingly without much tactical awareness and then climbing away from where the pads would save them. They may feel safe. But they're not safe. 

Technology is technology. Tactics are tactics. Today there's a big reliance on the latter (pads, gloves, etc). Not so much the latter?

Mick 

In reply to Mick Ward:

Yeah, that was my point. But looking back, the way I worded it wasn't very clear. I didn't go to Dartmoor to try to learn to jam, that's just where I was when I started trad climbing so it's why I got pretty reasonable at every other technique whilst remaining a jamming dunce.

I did later move near the Peak and thought grit would be a good place to learn to jam, but it never really happened to any significant extent until years later when I got gloves. Obviously I'm not saying gloves are necessary to learn to jam, that would be absurd because people got good at it for years without. But for me, having got good enough at other techniques that jamming was rarely necessary other than on the obvious kind of routes that I would either avoid or get shut down on, they made the world of difference to my learning.

Yes, if you're sweaty, chalk will help you grip, even on jugs and even if you're reading the rock badly. Yes, a lot of people probably overuse chalk these days, including me (it's a bad habit, I do try not to) and perhaps especially beginners. Are there important things for them to learn? Of course! Will chalk significantly compensate for bad technique? Obviously not. But your original throwaway comment suggested you think people should avoid chalk entirely until some way into their climbing career and that seems silly to me. Beginner hands will sweat just as much as others so it's just as legitimate for them to use chalk. (And no more silly for them to use it excessively than all the other people using it excessively.)

Beginners will always be beginners. Of course they'll have bad technique and bad tactics, they're still learning. Of course they'll also use the technology that's available now. The latter doesn't cause the former.

In reply to Mick Ward:

Which is partly why I suggested the way it read seemed unusual for you.

I don't really understand this, so I think you might be confusing me with someone else.

I don't think wearing crack gloves means you have less "feel", indeed I don't remember ever hearing people suggest beginner should learn to climb without shoes to learn to "feel" the holds better.

But quite clearly some people never learn to jam because they find it hurts too much - I'm sure you've heard similar stories to those I have heard about E3 and E4 leaders failing on the File. I would have thought if tape or gloves helps people to try and begin learning to jam that's a good thing. It does really seem that there is a lot difference in how much jamming hurts different people. Whilst there are plenty of climbers who say jamming doesn't hurt their hands because they are "doing it properly", you get plenty more - who are good climbers and climb hard cracks - including lots of women climbers, but who do wear gloves because it hurts their hands if they don't. Are we sure they are just "not doing it properly" as opposed to being physiologically different?

In reply to TobyA:

56 year old climber who climbed old man of store 2 years ago and tried to jam the slimey 5a first pitch and got scars on the back of my hands to show for it - I'd practised hands on a home crack so the technique was mostly OK. Bought BD gloves for the old many of hoy a couple of weeks ago and they were amazingly useful. thin enough to not really be noticed but useful for grip and on the occasional uncomfortable cracks... I wish I'd had them in Paradiset in Lofoten when we visited. The only accessible climbs had a horizontal hand crack travers in granite full of massive quartz crystals - like a sharks mouth!

In reply to Mick Ward:

I think that this is not universally true and I suspect it is just not really true at all, or at least not the full story. I only learnt to hand/fist jam once I got some gloves (though admittedly it did also roughly coincide with a trip to Yosemite). Whilst that doesn't by itself refute your point I think the gloves were actively positive for the learning experience in relation to having no gloves. They kept pain largely out of the equation and allowed me to get positive feedback on what stuck and what didn't without that feedback being drowned out by pain.

I do think you have a point that there is value in learning to jam without gloves (as in "learning to 'jam without gloves'", rather than "'learning to jam' without gloves") , both because it's nice to be able to use a jam on a route when you're not wearing gloves and also because it probably does have some benefit for learning. While I was learning I would sometimes do a route once with gloves and then repeat it without wearing gloves. I think there was value in that.

In reply to Luke90:

I get your point but Tom told me this in about 2015 or something so before the crack glove selling days.