Cotswold Outdoor in the mire

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 Chris_Mellor 26 Apr 2019

Looks like Cotswold Outdoor and Snow + Rock are in the financial doo-doo according to this Grough article - https://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2019/04/26/cotswold-outdoor-parent-compan...

Seems to me private equity is only concerned with money and not the soul of a business.

Post edited at 22:12
 DerwentDiluted 26 Apr 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

> Seems to me private equity is only concerned with money and not the soul of a business.

In other news, bears defecate in areas of arboreal density.

 3patallen 26 Apr 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

No real surprise here. Expensive iconic retail premises, poor website, cheaper alternatives available. Stocking outdated brands. A combination of:

Go Outdoor "stack em high sell it cheap" 

and

Sport pursuit, "top brands, but might not fit"

has been the death of them.

1
 JimR 26 Apr 2019
In reply to 3patallen:

Not really surprised as I’ve seen them develop from small niche shops in inexpensive locations with great service to expensive big clothing outlets in prime locations facing a lot of competition 

 Donotello 27 Apr 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

‘O&CC is owned by Retail Concepts NV, a Belgium-based company registered in the Netherlands. It in turn is owned by Dutch outfit AS Adventure Coöpertief UA, which is an asset of French private-equity group PAI Partners.‘

What do they expect with so many people trying to take a cut of the pie? Why make things so complicated. It’s like retail inception. 

1
 SouthernSteve 27 Apr 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

I quite like the services that Cotswold provide. They are generally helpful and if you are member of the National Trust, BMC (and I suspect a few other organisations) you can always get a bit of discount to help with the price comparison. Although the stores have quite a varying level of expertise, Harrogate has always stood out for me as a good one. I have never had to explain to the staff in any of their stores how to use a piece of equipment that they are selling – shame on you Ellis Brigham! So I hope that something continues. 

This is the way of the world, most vets, opticians, and many other services are corporately owned and shops in the high street seem to be suffering in every sector. Our local town has about 50% empty shops in the centre and many that are occupied are charity shops. This doesn't encourage shopping there at all. Cotwold in Coventry is out near the motorway so virtually no passing trade - it seems very quiet especially in the week.

 BnB 27 Apr 2019
In reply to Donotello:

> ‘O&CC is owned by Retail Concepts NV, a Belgium-based company registered in the Netherlands. It in turn is owned by Dutch outfit AS Adventure Coöpertief UA, which is an asset of French private-equity group PAI Partners.‘

> What do they expect with so many people trying to take a cut of the pie? Why make things so complicated. It’s like retail inception. 

I'm a private equity investor and also a stockholder retail real estate. So I'm potentially a loser on both sides of this issue (although not specifically in relation to Cotswold). I understand your concern but, despite the labyrinthine ownership structure, all that matters financially is the viability of the retail business. Whether any profits are shared between a few enterprising founders or a myriad private equity partners across several different firms makes no difference to the essential question: "Is it profitable and will it make a sufficient return on investment?"

Where private equity involvement becomes problematic is usually in the loading up debt onto the asset when taking over the company. Eventually the business collapses under the weight of debt servicing. Alternatively, the PE firm expands the acquired asset too rapidly, usually involving more borrowing, but fails to meet its repayments. That appears to be part of the issue in this case.

However, the changing face of retail is probably an equal culprit here. A lot of businesses are in difficulties resulting from online disruption, and an equal number of healthy firms are suspected of milking the CVA opportunity to secure a rent reduction.

Post edited at 09:13
 Jim Nevill 27 Apr 2019
In reply to BnB:

As clear an explanation as I've ever read in the financial pages and spot on. But then, you would know, wouldn't you?

 BnB 27 Apr 2019
In reply to Jim Nevill:

> As clear an explanation as I've ever read in the financial pages and spot on. But then, you would know, wouldn't you?

Thank you. Unfortunately, in the investing world, knowledge usually arrives with a generous dose of pain. Or, as someone put it better, experience is the thing you acquire just after you needed it.

Post edited at 10:13
 Barrington 27 Apr 2019
In reply to BnB:

You are of course entirely correct, but your statement "Is it profitable and will it make a sufficient return on investment?" hits it on the head, the more layers looking for profit, the less each layer gets & ultimately, they put their money elsewhere to get a better return - Porters 5 Forces & all that. The way of the world.....   

1
 BnB 27 Apr 2019
In reply to Barrington:

You'd think so, at first glance, but it doesn't (usually) work like that. Following a takeover, the ownership of the profit doesn't suddenly have to be divided between acquirer and the acquired. By definition, it all belongs to the acquirer. And, in the case of Cotswold, to the party at the top of the tree, PAI Partners. In that instance, all the other parties are irrelevant to the distibution of any earnings. Or, if PAI's interest is by majority and not absolute ownership of AS Adventure Coöpertief UA, then it is shared with other shareholders. But in that instance, PAI's investment will not have matched the whole value of the subsidiary, and their expectation of profit share will diminish to match their proportionate holding.

It might be simpler to compare the arrangements to a conglomerate structure where PAI is the shareholders. AS Adventure Coöpertief UA  is the board of directors of a holding company with interests in, say, manufacturing and retail, and Retail Concepts NV the retail divisional company comprising several individual businesses, such as Cotswold and Snow and Rock. Each layer has its purpose but the profits all belong to the top layer.

But I won't pretend to know the exact arrangements here.

Post edited at 11:28
 afx22 27 Apr 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Assuming sales are lower than hoped, I wonder where the sales are being lost to.  Are Joe Brown, Needle Sports, Tiso and such rolling in profit (I suspect not) or is the industry too small to support everyone?  I assume Amazon aren’t a big factor?

 Howard J 27 Apr 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Cotswold seem to have turned their back on climbers and mountaineers in favour of the more general outdoor market. Most stores now carry only a small amount of specialist climbing gear and seem to be stocked largely with expensive outdoor clothing from high-end brands.  However in that market they are undercut by Go Outdoors and Decathlon.

 ripper 27 Apr 2019
In reply to Howard J:

> Cotswold seem to have turned their back on climbers and mountaineers in favour of the more general outdoor market. Most stores now carry only a small amount of specialist climbing gear and seem to be stocked largely with expensive outdoor clothing from high-end brands.  However in that market they are undercut by Go Outdoors and Decathlon.


This. I was on a day out with the in-laws a while back, wandering round some town feeling slightly bored (Skipton, iirc), wandered into a Cotswold and asked one of the staff if they had any deals on pairs of half ropes - he told me they didn't really carry much actual climbing equipment and I'd be better off trying a proper climbing retailer.

Having said that, the own-brand sleeping bag I bought from them at least 15 years ago is still going strong (with just the one duct-tape repair, resulting from a drunken fight with the zip)

 Richardhobbs 27 Apr 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

I have been using cotswold since it was mail order, but in the past 5 years I have used it less and less. It has bacome more and more high Street rather than outdoor specific. A real shame but lost its routes once it was brought out. 

In reply to afx22:

> Are Joe Brown, Needle Sports, Tiso and such rolling in profit......?

Ha!

(Well maybe Tiso's is seeing as it is own by JD Sports who posted record profits recently).

1
 dread-i 27 Apr 2019
In reply to ripper:

>Having said that, the own-brand sleeping bag I bought from them at least 15 years ago is still going strong (with just the one duct-tape repair, resulting from a drunken fight with the zip)

I think this might also have an impact on sales of outdoor equipment. We all own kit that we've had for years. It's been the downfall of a number of great manufacturers of great gear. You buy something, it does the job well and keeps on doing it. You don't buy any more. They go out of business.

I suspect that if it wasn't for the fact that everyone and their dog are wearing north face and berg'ouse, outdoor shops would have declined more rapidly. The general public might get through more high end clothing than the average mountaineer. They buy new when it gets a bit scruffy or if it's not this years colour. We keep on wearing stuff, even cherishing it more, when its been patched with gaffa tape.

 Trangia 27 Apr 2019
In reply to SouthernSteve:

> I quite like the services that Cotswold provide. They are generally helpful

I agree with that. My nearest branch is in Tunbridge Wells, and I've always had helpful, and generally informed advice from the staff, particularly when buying boots. They were also incredibly helpful and supportive when I had to return two pairs of Brasher Boots in the space of two years which had failed. Cotswold returned them to Brasher on my behalf with a detailed report as to why they believed Brasher should replace them, which they did.

I'd be sorry if they closed as they are the nearest decent outdoor shop for me and far better than Millets and Blacks who are in Hastings and Eastbourne.

In reply to Chris_Mellor:

> Seems to me private equity is only concerned with money and not the soul of a business.

Well that's true but it's not the main problem.   The main problem is that rents on property were bid up far too high, councils try and extract too much tax from retail premises and consumers are less interested in seeing the goods in person than saving money, not having to leave their house and having access to a much wider range of products.    

Bricks and mortar retail is screwed until landlords get realistic about rents and councils get realistic about how much tax it can afford to pay.  Even then it is never going to be as big as it once was because online will always be able to offer more range, lower prices and the convenience of not having to spend time going to a physical shop.

Brexit probably isn't helping with a low pound increasing the cost of imported goods and consumers refusing to pay more.

 Sean Kelly 27 Apr 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Went into Cotswold the other week for a pair of rock shoes. The ones I liked did not have a marked price so I took them to the counter to see what they cost £69 I think. Then I offered my BMC discount card but they said it didn't apply as they were a special offer. No advertising anywhere to this effect so I just walked out!

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 lucozade 27 Apr 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Had a friend work at my local store who left, having felt that the new owners had changed things quite a bit - felt the pattern of work / atmosphere / ways of doing things had gone downhill and left along with another brilliant member of staff. Staff themselves excellent, knowledgeable, helpful and all outdoors people - can't fault any I've met across the country to be honest, feel sorry for them. (PS. Discount card only ever applies to full priced/non-sale items, same in most retailers).

 Mark Stevenson 27 Apr 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor and others:

Slightly surprised that no-one has mentioned how boring and drab this year's clothing ranges have been in many outdoor shops but especially in Cotswolds.

In trying to cater for casual users and therefore tending to only stocking black jackets (or other dark colours plus some token pink stuff for the females) they are definitely putting off more serious outdoors enthusiasts who actually want to look good especially in any climbing or mountaineering photographs.

They definitely don't seem to be making any efforts to appeal to the Instagram generation!

 Neil Williams 27 Apr 2019
In reply to DerwentDiluted:

To be fair, "private equity" includes most people's occupational pensions.

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 BnB 27 Apr 2019
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> Well that's true but it's not the main problem.   The main problem is that rents on property were bid up far too high, councils try and extract too much tax from retail premises and consumers are less interested in seeing the goods in person than saving money, not having to leave their house and having access to a much wider range of products.    

> Bricks and mortar retail is screwed until landlords get realistic about rents and councils get realistic about how much tax it can afford to pay.  Even then it is never going to be as big as it once was because online will always be able to offer more range, lower prices and the convenience of not having to spend time going to a physical shop.

> Brexit probably isn't helping with a low pound increasing the cost of imported goods and consumers refusing to pay more.

UK retail sales surged recently according the the ONS so I don't think you can pin this on Brexit. But those numbers will include online purchases and there you rightly identify the culprit.

As for landlords, don't you think it's a bit rich pinning the blame on them? If you own a property that yields 5% as retail premises and you come under pressure to drop the rent so that it yields 3%, why would you do so, particularly if you have borrowed at 4% to fund your purchase? You might run into difficulties playing tough with your tenant. You will definitely go bust if you trade at a loss.

Many landlords are opting for a variety of strategies such as shifting the mix of their estates to include a higher proportion of workspace or residential usage. Another option is to accept the demise of the big stores and split the units into better yielding, smaller units, often with a leisure focus. Most are nevertheless accepting a bit of pain. But that doesn't make the retail crisis their fault.

Post edited at 18:43
 BnB 27 Apr 2019
In reply to Neil Williams:

> To be fair, "private equity" includes most people's occupational pensions.

I don't believe it does. That's publicly quoted companies you're thinking of. Pension funds like to invest in cash-generative, FTSE-listed multinationals, not early stage, cash-hungry, growth-focused SMEs.

In reply to BnB:

> As for landlords, don't you think it's a bit rich pinning the blame on them? If you own a property that yields 5% as retail premises and you come under pressure to drop the rent so that it yields 3%, why would you do so, particularly if you have borrowed at 4% to fund your purchase? You might run into difficulties playing tough with your tenant. You will definitely go bust if you trade at a loss.

The problem is that the buildings are overvalued.  The landlords paid too much for them. The banks lent too much on them.   If government hadn't bailed the banks out this would have been resolved far faster and it would have been banks and landlords getting wiped out as the value of property crashed and rents fell.

1
 BnB 27 Apr 2019
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> The problem is that the buildings are overvalued.  The landlords paid too much for them. The banks lent too much on them.   If government hadn't bailed the banks out this would have been resolved far faster and it would have been banks and landlords getting wiped out as the value of property crashed and rents fell.

If the rents were affordable 10 or 5 years ago and not now, then it isn't the valuation pre-2008 that is the source of the problem. It's the out-dated retail model. You can legitimately argue that landlords need to wake up and smell the coffee. Indeed they are doing just that within the constraints of remaining profitable. But they are entitled to seek to re-purpose the land instead of bailing out one set of customers that haven't adjusted their business model successfully. Expect to see House of Fraser and Debenhams become nightclubs, cinemas and bowling alleys, or climbing walls if anyone can work out how to make money out of that!

1
 Neil Williams 27 Apr 2019
In reply to BnB:

> I don't believe it does. That's publicly quoted companies you're thinking of. Pension funds like to invest in cash-generative, FTSE-listed multinationals, not early stage, cash-hungry, growth-focused SMEs.


They invest in all sorts with a very mixed risk/return profile.

 Dave 88 28 Apr 2019
In reply to afx22:

> "Are Joe Brown, Needle Sports, Tiso and such rolling in profit"

If they are, then I feel they deserve to be. They all stock a wide range of brands and have knowledgeable staff who sell actual climbing and outdoors kit.

Cotswolds in my experience have become a high street clothing store, with very little brand choice and little gear for the activities they claim to cater for (climbing gear for example).

This then puts them in same market as the likes of Go Outdoors and Decathlon who are both cheaper and stock a wider range of products.

Add this to the enourmous in-town premises they have (you could fit a nightclub in the 2-storey one in Keswick!) and it's unfortunately not surprising that they are struggling.

 Neil Williams 28 Apr 2019
In reply to Dave 88:

> Add this to the enourmous in-town premises they have (you could fit a nightclub in the 2-storey one in Keswick!) and it's unfortunately not surprising that they are struggling.

The MK one is a large semi-out-of-town premises and yet you rattle round in it.  Go Outdoors across the way is much, much better, or of course you can support the independent by going to the Climbers Shop in Stony, which is a lovely curiosity of being the sort of style of shop you normally get in Ambleside or Hathersage but nowhere near any hillwalking or climbing.  Though now Go Outdoors has been taken over I fear it too will follow down the wrong route of fashion retail.

Post edited at 11:18
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

I've always had good service from Cotswold, back to when they operated out of a single store in South Cerney.  It'd be a shame if they went the way of Field and Trek, amongst others.

T.

 Root1 29 Apr 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Cotswold and particularily go Outdoors have destroyed most of the good independents by undercutting other retailers offers by 10%. The like likes of Joe Brown and The Climbers Shop are now owned by larger companies. So many shops like Cotswold seem to turn into ordinary clothes shops and lose there way. The only decent independent climbing shops are now the likes of Needlesports and V12 and I for one do not mind paying a premium to keep these good outlets going.

Please tell me there are more independents out there!

Post edited at 09:00
 Prof. Outdoors 29 Apr 2019
In reply to Neil Williams:

Great description of the Climbers Shop in Stony Stratford.  It was a briliant shop known as the Outdoor Shop when I lived in MK nearly twenty years ago. Believe Paul and Kath are in charge so should retain that excellent standard.

 tjdodd 29 Apr 2019
In reply to Root1:

Outside in Hathersage is excellent.  Always worth paying a little more for their expertise but in reality they are often not that much more expensive if at all.  I sometimes think we are lulled into thinking the big chains are always cheaper when that is often not the case.

 Ian W 29 Apr 2019
In reply to Root1:

> Please tell me there are more independents out there!

There are a "new breed" of independents out there - usually based in climbing walls. Not all sell much beyond shoes, chalk and some clothing, but for the really "specialised" climbing gear, there are some good shops within walls. By their nature they will remain specialised - it is very expensive to stock a retail outlet, but if you ask nicely, many of the distributors will allow trade purchasers, such as walls, to order stuff that they wouldn't normally stock / sell in very small quantities. not sure they'd be too keen on credit terms / discounts, but when i worked with niche online retailer, the "big boys" were surprisingly happy to help out the specialists.

 Neil Williams 29 Apr 2019
In reply to Prof. Outdoors:

> Great description of the Climbers Shop in Stony Stratford.  It was a briliant shop known as the Outdoor Shop when I lived in MK nearly twenty years ago. Believe Paul and Kath are in charge so should retain that excellent standard.

The Outdoor Shop was a different business that under different management closed the Stony store (which was empty ever since, so I suspect the Climbers Shop got a good deal on rent) and moved it to Stacey Bushes, where it was understaffed to the point of uselessness (what's the benefit of a small shop like that other than expert staff and good service?) and quickly died.

If the original pre-Stacey-Bushes Outdoor Shop staff are involved, all the better.

 Neil Williams 29 Apr 2019
In reply to Root1:

Who owns Joe Brown/Climbers Shop now?

Edit: https://www.climbers-shop.com/pages/aboutus/ seems to suggest they are still very much a small family operation.

Of course, everyone starts somewhere, and until very recently (5 years or so?) Go Outdoors still was a family business.

Post edited at 10:49
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 LastBoyScout 29 Apr 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Cotswolds in Reading is out of town, but always used to be pretty busy, helped by trading quite a bit on being the preferred/recommended supplier for DofE and a few other organisations and offering discounts to many more, such as BMC, BCU and quite a few others, even quite small local companies and clubs. Due to armed forces cutbacks and military discount, there also seemed quite a few service personnel upgrading their issued kit.

These days, it seems to be much quieter, although I don't go in much at the weekend, preferring to call in on the way home from work, generally having done the click and collect from the website.

Go Outdoors opened pretty much over the road last year and is undercutting them - Cotswolds will price match, but if you want a Rab jacket that's priced at £190 in Cotswolds, why ask when you can get it for £171 over the road. If you wait for the right weekend, you can often get another 15%, even 20%, off on top of the offer price in GO or Blacks, too.

I was staggered to find out that Blacks had taken over Go Outdoors - I had thought they were on life support already with the disappearance of most of the Millets shops and semi-permanent sales.

I also think a lot of outdoors kit is very over-priced for what you get, even allowing for lower sales volumes and so on.

 summo 29 Apr 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

It's sad for the staff. But good news for the independents who've struggled on through, fighting against Cotswolds undercutting and huge marketing budget. It's not as if any outdoorsy type town will suddenly find itself without a shop, many have one every other doorway. 

In reply to dread-i:

> >Having said that, the own-brand sleeping bag I bought from them at least 15 years ago is still going strong (with just the one duct-tape repair, resulting from a drunken fight with the zip)

> I think this might also have an impact on sales of outdoor equipment. We all own kit that we've had for years. It's been the downfall of a number of great manufacturers of great gear. You buy something, it does the job well and keeps on doing it. You don't buy any more. They go out of business.

> I suspect that if it wasn't for the fact that everyone and their dog are wearing north face and berg'ouse, outdoor shops would have declined more rapidly. The general public might get through more high end clothing than the average mountaineer. They buy new when it gets a bit scruffy or if it's not this years colour. We keep on wearing stuff, even cherishing it more, when its been patched with gaffa tape.

Back to the sustainability question. Did we ever need an outdoor shop in every small town?

 summo 29 Apr 2019
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

> Back to the sustainability question. Did we ever need an outdoor shop in every small town?

Yes. If they were the size of say needle sports, with a slant to what ever the main activity is in that area. Be It, climbing, fishing, biking etc. 

A shop the size of most Cotswolds stores,  no and certainly not in a digital age. 

 mattrm 29 Apr 2019
In reply to Root1:

> Please tell me there are more independents out there!

Up and Under in Cardiff.  Not just climbing, they do water sports as well.  Great shop tho, with excellent staff.

 Max factor 29 Apr 2019
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

> Back to the sustainability question. Did we ever need an outdoor shop in every small town?

It's quite instructive flicking through some old copies of climbing magazines c. 1975-78 in our club hut and having a look at adverts. National chains didn't exist. There were loads of independents,  Ellis Brigham and Costwold were local stores, often touting gear they designed and made for retail themselves. This is especially true of tents and sleeping systems which seemed myriad in design. And very few of the (gear) brand names have made it through to the present day.  

So to come back to your question in a roundabout way - yes, the model was supported at one time, but not needed any longer with the internet and the globalisation of the outdoor equipment industry. 

 Emily_pipes 29 Apr 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

This isn't a surprise.  I stopped regularly using the Cotswold in Glasgow about five or six years ago, when they significantly cut back on their stock of technical clothing (what little remained was for average-sized men, so not me) and their climbing gear.  Someone I knew who worked there told me that when it was bought out, the owners told every store in the country that they had to stock the same things, regardless of where they were or who their regular customers were.  Under the previous owners, the individual stores had far more leeway to choose their stock, so a store in Glasgow or Fort William could sell more mountaineering gear, while one in London could sell more 'lifestyle' clothing.  The new owners wanted to shift the focus of the whole chain away from technical outdoor stuff and try to pick up a fatter share of the 'lifestyle' market.  It's a larger market, for sure, but everyone else was doing the same thing.  The 'lifestyle' customers are spoilt for choice and, as others have said on this thread, can buy things cheaper at Decathlon or Go Outdoors or the web, and the mountaineers go elsewhere -- on and offline -- because they have to. 

I try to time gear purchases with trips to Aviemore, so I can use Cairngorm Mountain Sports (as far as I know, it's independant).  The big Tiso in Glasgow is still useful, although I've been informed by a source that Tiso has also got itself into financial trouble by expanding too much, too quickly.

Post edited at 13:09
 Anoetic 29 Apr 2019
In reply to Max factor:

This where i think Bananafingers has got it right.  Its based in a climbing centre, with a great online presence, and linked to EpicTV on Youtube..

2
 Southvillain 29 Apr 2019
In reply to Ian W:

> There are a "new breed" of independents out there - usually based in climbing walls. Not all sell much beyond shoes, chalk and some clothing, but for the really "specialised" climbing gear, there are some good shops within walls...

Agreed. Bananafingers in Bristol being a great example (being inside the Bloc indoor centre). Big range of shoes, especially, and ideal to be able to try them out on the wall alongside. As others have said, IMHO the Cotswolds etc are trapped in the no-mans-land between the great independents (Ultralightoutdoorgear and bananafingers etc) and the barns/onliners (Go, Amazon, Decathlon).

 Doug 29 Apr 2019
In reply to Max factor:

But even in the mid 1970s Field & Trek, although a 'real' shop was better known as a mail order shop (the precursor to the on line shops of today ?). And the chains were starting to appear - when I moved to Stirling in 1978 there was a Tiso's shop, although I think at the time they were a chain of 3 and I think Nevisports had several shops not long after (Glasgow, Fort William & Aviemore, maybe others)

 Ander 29 Apr 2019
In reply to BnB:

The real issue with these shops is that they've been financialised.

The best climbing shops you go to because you get more than gear in them. This is to do with company culture. Once companies start to get managed for shareholders (or tiers of shareholders), the culture moves to one of "what's the ROI?" rather than "What's a good shop". The two, in spite of neoliberal dogma, don't always coincide.

Happens time after time.

Internet sales also impact high street retailers, but the real issue is that Cotswold sell fairly anodyne kit, with fairly anodyne salespeople, which doesn't justify the higher prices they do charge (even if you're getting 10-15% off).

Arranging clothing by brand rather than intended use is good indicator of what that store is about.

Compare them to Bananafingers or Urban Rock or upandunder. The issue is that dominating financial objectives destroy a high quality culture with impacts throughout operations. Cotswold is little more than a money making machine for it's shareholders.

2
In reply to Anoetic:

> This where i think Bananafingers has got it right.  Its based in a climbing centre, with a great online presence, and linked to EpicTV on Youtube..

Owned by EpicTV

In reply to Root1:

> Please tell me there are more independents out there!

No there aren't and there aren't going to be. 

This concept that the business models and practice of Cotswolds and GoOutdoors are specialist and independent are ridiculous! They are simply suffering from the very thing they helped to create, a race to the bottom. It's just that other companies managed to go even lower. 

Post edited at 20:37
1
 BnB 29 Apr 2019
In reply to Ander:

> The real issue with these shops is that they've been financialised.

> The best climbing shops you go to because you get more than gear in them. This is to do with company culture. Once companies start to get managed for shareholders (or tiers of shareholders), the culture moves to one of "what's the ROI?" rather than "What's a good shop". The two, in spite of neoliberal dogma, don't always coincide.

> Happens time after time.

> Internet sales also impact high street retailers, but the real issue is that Cotswold sell fairly anodyne kit, with fairly anodyne salespeople, which doesn't justify the higher prices they do charge (even if you're getting 10-15% off).

> Arranging clothing by brand rather than intended use is good indicator of what that store is about.

> Compare them to Bananafingers or Urban Rock or upandunder. The issue is that dominating financial objectives destroy a high quality culture with impacts throughout operations. Cotswold is little more than a money making machine for it's shareholders.

There really is nothing wrong with trying to make a profit. The crime is to have misjudged their strategy. PE firms are regularly guilty of trying to scale organisations too quickly before successfully appreciating the virtues and markets of the firms they take over. But trying to make a return for the owners is the first priority of any business that wishes to survive.

 Oceanrower 29 Apr 2019
In reply to Old Mountain Git:

> No there aren't and there aren't going to be. 

Trekkit springs to mind... 

1
 FactorXXX 29 Apr 2019
In reply to Oceanrower:

> Trekkit springs to mind... 

and Up and Under in Cardiff.

Le Sapeur 29 Apr 2019
In reply to BnB:

> However, the changing face of retail is probably an equal culprit here. A lot of businesses are in difficulties resulting from online disruption, and an equal number of healthy firms are suspected of milking the CVA opportunity to secure a rent reduction.

That's a very dry cow they are milking. A CVA doesn't instil confidence in shareholders, staff or customers, present or future.

 Wiley Coyote2 30 Apr 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

'Climbing shops' are few and far between these days. My two local Cotswolds have very limited gear but acres of  flashy jackets.  I got the message that the had dropped outdoors stuff in favour of travel when their window display was a huge rooftop shot of Florence. They seem to have moved from a niche market into an overcrowded one.

That said, I recently had a very informative chat with a salesman about different rope bags He clearly knew his stuff but he only had one model in stock. So no sale there.

My previous visit to the same shop had been for a wall rope. The young lad plonked  a 70m single rope on the counter and when I said: "No. I just want a wall rope" he replied "Don't worry. This  will be long enough for any wall round here". No sale there either.

Mostly if I want gear I will go online if it is something I already know (eg replacement stuff) or else wait till I am passing Needlesport, Outside, Joe Brown's etc if I want to fondle it before I buy.

In reply to summo:

> Yes. If they were the size of say needle sports, with a slant to what ever the main activity is in that area. Be It, climbing, fishing, biking etc. 

> A shop the size of most Cotswolds stores,  no and certainly not in a digital age. 

If it was just outdoors then that was already covered by Blacks or similar but it seemed that Cotswolds were chasing a more discerning outdoors clientele. The sort who might buy an upmarket tent, sleeping bag or jacket. I don't think there was ever the market to justify a store in... Solihull.

 JoshOvki 30 Apr 2019
In reply to Ander:

It makes me very sad. I used to work in Cotswolds and we had a huge range of stock in, and if we didn't have it, one of the other stores would and we could get it in a couple of days later. My interview consisted of talking about when I do outdoors, and trips planned coming up (I was off to the Alps) with a manager that was (is) truly interested in the outdoors (he was part of one of the local MRTs too). Kit was split up into type of kit with the exception of TNF which had its own section, and we struggled to fit all of the climbing gear we had onto the wall space we had.

I went in there the other day to buy a couple of replacement quickdraws and a 30m walking rope ready for an up coming trip and walked out empty handed. Didn't have either of the things I wanted, there had been a total staff change over, and everything was grouped by brand. 

 tlouth7 30 Apr 2019
In reply to Root1:

> Please tell me there are more independents out there!

Open Air in Cambridge is fantastic! A small shop absolutely stuffed with gear and thoroughly knowledgeable staff. They even have separate premises next door just for walking boots.

It shows that they offer something unique that they have survived in close proximity to a large Cotswolds and Mountain Warehouse, in a town that is not exactly close to the action.

In reply to FactorXXX:

The question that was asked is 'Will there be anymore?'. As in will we see new independent shops opening. I don't think we will. Having owned and run one for eight years, the conclusion I came to was that the consumer likes the idea of having an independent shop, but the reality of spending a little more to get the specialist knowledge they offer isn't quite so attractive. 

I hope that Up & Under, Needle Sports, Outside and all the others are around for a very long time, but seriously would you want to try and open a small independent in the current retail landscape?

 Andy Johnson 30 Apr 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Well that explains why my local Snow and Rock has been looking a bit empty recently. Lots of winter/ski stuff on clearance, but they don't seem to have replaced it with the same volume of summer stuff. And fewer staff too, by the look of it.

I hope they (Cotswold too) get through this, if only for the employees who I find generally pretty helpful and well informed.

(I used to spend too much time hanging around in the Oxford Road (Manchester) Cotswold shop in the early nineties, browsing the gear and chatting with the staff on Saturday morning and getting in the way. And before that I remember when Cotswold's mail-order catalogue was a few photocopied pages stapled together and mailed out.)

 BnB 30 Apr 2019
In reply to Le Sapeur:

> That's a very dry cow they are milking. A CVA doesn't instil confidence in shareholders, staff or customers, present or future.

Agreed. But a private discussion between landlord and tenant that embraces the potential for a CVA can be effective in driving down rents without the need to actually take said action and, as you point out,  unnerve staff and investors. Landlords don't welcome the headlines either.

 Simon Caldwell 30 Apr 2019
In reply to Old Mountain Git:

> As in will we see new independent shops opening. I don't think we will. 

Has anyone mentioned Alpkit yet?

 Oceanrower 30 Apr 2019
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

But they're just opening their 4th store.

Does that make them independent or a chain?

🤔

 Jay83 30 Apr 2019
In reply to BnB:

PE often acquire businesses through high levels of borrowing. Interest on debt is deducted before corporation tax is paid making leveraged buy outs both very attractive (less tax to pay) and risky (if cash flow drops high levels of debt cannot be serviced). 

This creates societal problems.  The tax take is reduced because bond holders receive payment before the taxpayer.  If the risks materialise and the business is liquidated or restructured people lose their jobs.  

 TobyA 30 Apr 2019
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Interestingly Alpkit was flogging lots of stuff through whattitsface? The website that flogs everyone's end of line and last season stuff. 

Somehow I felt it made Alpkit seem less of the super-good-value brand that it has on the whole been although I understand firms need to move old stock somehow. But a bit like stuff ending up in TKmaxx.

 BnB 30 Apr 2019
In reply to Jay83:

> PE often acquire businesses through high levels of borrowing. Interest on debt is deducted before corporation tax is paid making leveraged buy outs both very attractive (less tax to pay) 

The attraction is they're risking someone else's money instead of their own. It's got bugger all to do with tax. If a tax deduction is achieved, extra interest charges lower the CT bill by 19% of their booked cost, but they reduce profit by 100% of that cost figure. Lower profit is never a good thing.

> and risky (if cash flow drops high levels of debt cannot be serviced). 

Indeed. As I stated in my first post upthread, but always worth keeping to the forefront.

Post edited at 18:01
 Ellis Brigham 30 Apr 2019
In reply to SouthernSteve:

We've read your post and are very concerned about your statement about having to explain to a member of our team about how to use a piece of equipment. We'd be grateful if you could go into a bit more detail by emailing us at marketing@ellis-brigham.com. Many thanks Mark

1
In reply to spidermonkey09:

> Alpkit has private equity backing too:

That's interesting. Nick always seemed keen on organic growth, not requiring external finance. I guess there comes a point where you decide you want to grow faster, and have to look elsewhere for finance. I hope it works out for them.

Cotswold's ills? Like others have said; they have gone for the 'outdoor lifestyle' market. I couldn't even find a decent range of base layers the last time I went in; hundreds of fleeces, but very few base layers.

Post edited at 20:33
 SouthernSteve 30 Apr 2019
In reply to Ellis Brigham:

> We've read your post and are very concerned about your statement about having to explain to a member of our team about how to use a piece of equipment. We'd be grateful if you could go into a bit more detail by emailing us at marketing@ellis-brigham.com. Many thanks Mark

I might as well put it on here to be fair. It was about 10 years ago in the Liverpool store. My wife went to buy new boots for the Alps - apart from the presumption that she wanted something for dog walking rather than B3 boots, we watched while the person serving us attempted to remove a crampon from a boot for some time (it was the size we needed) before just taking the boot and doing it ourselves and then discussing how the things worked. We have had many good experiences in your shops before and since, but that one sticks in the memory for these two reasons and hence my comment.

3
 Emily_pipes 30 Apr 2019
In reply to captain paranoia:

If Alpkit wanted to expand to Fort William, I'm all for that.  They're desperate for a decent, but affordable gear shop that stocks the stuff you want.  I remember spacing out our camping stove (s) one trip to Skye (yeah, I know), realizing it somewhere in Glencoe, and our thought of, "Oh, well, we'll grab one in Ft. William on our way up,' was far easier said than done, which is kind of nuts, given it plugs itself as 'the outdoor capital of the Highlands.' 

Post edited at 21:25
 JoshOvki 30 Apr 2019
In reply to TobyA:

> I understand firms need to move old stock somehow. 

Put it on their clearance part of their site. I already have too much of their kit but could always do with more. I'm worried they will go down the high cost, high msrginm, low turnover route though. I love that their kit is perfectly functional without costing the earth.

I have a synthetic belay jacket from them as a beta product that never made it to production, must be around 9 or 10 years old. Still gets very regular use and still looks great. Also who remembers their water resistant jeans?! 

​​

 More-On 30 Apr 2019
In reply to JoshOvki

> Also who remembers their water resistant jeans?! 

Yep, still have two pairs, although they are showing their age.

I think alpkit still have a good approach in designing their own kit etc, but will be interested to see if it lasts...

 More-On 30 Apr 2019
In reply to Old Mountain Git:

Very interesting post and food for thought for us consumers.

Like what you did with your user name by the way...

 JoshOvki 30 Apr 2019
In reply to More-On:

I heard somewhere they have one of the guys who used to work at Rab working for them.

In reply to More-On:

😉

 GHawksworth 01 May 2019
In reply to Root1:

Yes. Up and Under in Cardiff!

There's also Dick's in Bristol but I personally don't know how independent that still is, someone clarify for me?

 ScottTalbot 01 May 2019
In reply to SouthernSteve:

On top of this, they actually price match stores online! Not only do you get a great price, but you still get their great customer service! I very rarely shop anywhere else, for outdoor gear, and will be sorry to see them go, if it comes to that.

1
In reply to GHawksworth:

Very

 Root1 01 May 2019
In reply to Old Mountain Git:

Yes opening an independent these days would be a huge risk. A friend of mine ran a great climbing shop but went out of business as he was constantly undercut by the nearby Go outdoors and Cotswolds. I will buy from independents whenever I can. 

 Emily_pipes 08 May 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

I went into the Glasgow Cotswold yesterday, looking for Gore Tex repair patches and replacement Leki hiking pole tips, two things I've found there before.  But not this time.  Didn't have either.  Their stock selection has shrunk dramatically, and the whole store seemed half-empty.  I was the only customer in the store.  The staff looked very glum and the whole place gave off the vibe of an establishment on its last legs.  A shame.  I lived across the street from it in 2010/11 or thereabouts, and would run in all the time.  It was full of stuff, and relatively busy.  All the climbers/hillwalkers/mountaineers I knew in Glasgow used it. 

Now, it's pretty much useless, even for basic stuff.

 Snowdave 08 May 2019
In reply to Old Mountain Git:

> The question that was asked is 'Will there be anymore?'. As in will we see new independent shops opening. I don't think we will. Having owned and run one for eight years, the conclusion I came to was that the consumer likes the idea of having an independent shop, but the reality of spending a little more to get the specialist knowledge they offer isn't quite so attractive. 

> I hope that Up & Under, Needle Sports, Outside and all the others are around for a very long time, but seriously would you want to try and open a small independent in the current retail landscape?

I owned & ran my own specialist climbing, rope access, mountaineering store for 12yrs.....& agree...

However the main reason I closed was because the brands/distributers stopped wanting to deal with the smaller shops...& were actively closing the small accounts....Patagonia rep stated to me 80% of UK sales was from 20% of the total UK accounts.....so get rid of the 80% of the accounts/paperwork/reps etc & you might lose 20% income but save on overheads...

Casio decided to get rid of 14 out of the 22 accounts in Scotland....so that was G-Shock, Pro-trek etc..Christ I had stock of 50+ models watches for the 4 military bases where I am...

Then you have the ever increasing pre -season ordering (enforced)...so ordering all your clothing almost 1yr in advance...for both the summer & winter season....& minimum amounts/£££....but that's the same minimum £££ that applies to the big boys...who have way more shops to spread it across...

& to top it all I had a big industrial rope access distributor actually breaking their contract & "pro-dealer" arrangement with me by dealing direct with customers in my area when they said they would not....

& when I go into any of the current chain store etc I despair...poor choice of goods, bad displays, thick staff.....& two items I used to stock i've just had to mail order from down south..& all the Cotswold, Tiso, Ellis Brigham, Blacks, Go Outdoors where I am don't stock certain Platypus items....

 misterb 08 May 2019
In reply to Snowdave:

Retail is basically fooked

Business costs are rising year on year and margin is decreasing year on year on just about everything 

For a few years the decrease in margin was sort of covered by an increase in overall sales but that is now not the case

The internet is basically the root cause of all the pain, ridiculous price competition driving price down on so many products that it is almost not worth keeping them at all, more of a service than actually providing worthwhile profit (hence many products disappearing from the shelves in retail establishments)

People don't seem to realise that shops actually need to sell product, not just display it for them to browse like a library before going "for a coffee" to think about it (code for Google price search )

it is sad as i used to really enjoy my job but now every day we are just battered by price matching and requests for discount for any number of ridiculous reasons,and that is always after the customer has had the service. It just becomes depressing as the staff feel less and less appreciated week on week

customer attitude has changed in over the last few years, and not in a good way, again this i think is down to the internet. 

the manufacturers,brands and distributors also have a lot to answer as they are really not helping retailers by expanding / changing their product ranges on a seasonal basis which just forces shops to buy into more and more product , often barely getting into store before it is put on sale ready for the next season's version

all in all its just not a good out look for stores at the moment with people's current obsession with the likes of eBay and Amazon

​​​​


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