Carrying too much (rack)? The sequel

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 Exile 02 Feb 2021

Firstly - apologies for my ramblings!

I've enjoyed reading through the thread started by Basemetal looking at his winter kit.  One thing it has bought to light for me is the amount of rack I carry.  So, for those who know, is this too much / about right?

For context I have climbed quite a lot as a weekend warrior over the years.  I can usually climb IV 5 any day, V 5 / V 6 most days, VI 6 on good days, VI 7 on very good days (I've led 3 or 4) and VII 7 when everything is going amazingly (I've climbed one having had a good run up of routes.)  So, if I'm leading a V 6 mixed route in less than ideal conditions / weather, I'm actually probably getting quite close to my limit although I've led a couple of notches higher than this.  Bearing in mind that this may happen most times I go out I've always thought it better to take a bit too much rack and live with the weight, than save weight on gear and chance getting properly run out.  With all this in mind, is my mixed rack too big? - 

 - Up to 16 light weight quickdraws of various lengths, some being short slings trebled up and a couple with revolver crabs on one end.  (I've always thought these are pretty light and pitches tend to be longer in winter.  I've got close to getting through / got through all of these on some pitches)

 - 2 x sets of walnuts 1 - 9 plus a single 10 and a single 11 (on three crabs)

 - Dragon cams 00 - 5, and an old friend 00 (8 cams in total)

 - BD wired hexes 8, 9, 10 & 11

 - three pegs - blade, small lost arrow and small angle

 - 1 x Bulldog, 1 x terrier

 - Belay plate with screw gate

 - 3 x screw gates

 - 2 x longer slings

I add more hooks / warthogs if I think things are going to be supper turfy, (some Southern Highlands venues) and wont take the pegs if they are popular routes - Northern Corries for example.  If its Ben style icy mixed I'll take some short screws, leave out the hex 11 and thin the cams down so I'm carrying 4 or 5.   

(Not that it's what I've asked, but my Ben Nevis style ice routes rack is usually eight quickdraws, ten screws, pegs, one set of walnuts, one hook, three hexes and three cams.)

And as an additional sub question I aspire to do some bigger mixed routes a long way from the road (think Mitre Ridge) where weight will be an issue.  For those who have done these sort of routes what would you leave out?

Thoughts welcome!

 DaveHK 02 Feb 2021
In reply to Exile:

That sounds pretty much the same as I'd take. I'm not really a fan of terriers and I'd probably only take 14 draws max and maybe ditch a smaller cam but that's not much difference.

Post edited at 17:22
 TobyA 02 Feb 2021
In reply to Exile:

I carry very similar for routes up to V,6. Again obviously it depends on style of route and where they are.

I take 10 quickdraws (4 are sling draws I think), but I have torque nuts not wired hexes, and each has their own krab. Also I have blue, yellow, red, green, purple dragons and then a #1 4CU (as I don't have any smaller dragons) all with their own krabs, so that's 6 cams, a bit less than you.

I generally take wall nuts 1-11 and then Offsets, all the alloy ones and I've got doubles of most and the biggest of the brass ones (so probably another 10 nuts).

Then probably 2 x 120 cm slings and 2 x 60 cm slings each with a light screwgate on.

I used to have two Bulldogs but lost one a couple of winters ago, so if whoever I'm climbing with doesn't have one I might chuck in my old MT red warthog. 

That's for Lakes and N Wales mixed which is mainly what I've done in recent years. I've got lots of ice screws from living in Finland, so if I know ice routes are in, obviously I'll dump lots of the rock gear and take screws, but haven't had that opportunity much in the last 6 winters since moving back to the UK. I've found in recent years Welsh rock is much friendlier for mixed climbing that most of the Lakes routes I've done, so more turf gear can be useful in the Lakes. 

The only big cock up on gear in recent years I've done was on the Ben a couple of year ago - first time climbing there in winter for over a decade. Had a good day on the Saturday, did a climb, visited the summit etc (mate's first time), so it was decent long day out. Sunday we hike up again, but decided we wouldn't be too ambitious, so took one triple rated rope and a slimmed down rack. Went up Observatory and decided to finish up Gardyloo. It was early season and after a big thaw, so I could easily go under the big chockstone/cave arch thingy, only to find a beautiful cascade of water ice behind it, going up maybe 20 mtrs and around a bit so I couldn't see what came after it (I know now, that's it, just steep snow to the top after). I reckon the ice would have been tech 4 or 5 and perfectly doable for me with my ice experience, except I had brought 2 screws with me and that was it. I put the first in at the bottom of the steep ice to protect my run out from the belay to there, then the second in maybe 6 metres above it, but I still couldn't see how much more ice there was or how steep it was or wasn't so decided to be sensible and back down. I'm still kicking myself two years later for being too lazy to carry maybe half a dozens screws up with me, as I actually knew Gardyloo had a rep for being really icy and good early season or after deep thaws. You live and learn!

 Rick Graham 02 Feb 2021
In reply to Exile:

Hi ...

For context I have done one  V,6 with exile 25 years ago. Eagle ridge summer and winter  , mitre ridge summer all relatively recently.

I would be quite happy with your Ben rack less screws for eagle and mitre ridge in winter. 

Looking at weight saving , perhaps compare your total rope weight to your rack. 

Mitre ridge access could be a relative doddle ( late season) if the southern  tracks are snow free ( easy mountain bike ), the shaded crag still being iced up.

If bivi ing consider the northern approach from tomintoul( longer but even easier biking). In 2012 the bothy was clean ( ish ),  take a ground sheet  and a spare bit of polythene / felt nails to repair the window . Alternatively cycle further to a five star bothy but probably not worth the effort. Best get updated info on bothy status.

 DaveHK 02 Feb 2021
In reply to Rick Graham:

> . Best get updated info on bothy status.

If you mean the pony hut or whatever it's called it's still mostly watertight but I'm not sure I'd bother as Faindouran Lodge is very nice indeed. It would be an easy ride back down in the morning too.

Post edited at 18:59
 Rick Graham 02 Feb 2021
In reply to DaveHK:

> If you mean the pony hut or whatever it's called it's still mostly watertight but I'm not sure I'd bother as Faindouran Lodge is very nice indeed. It would be an easy ride back down in the morning too.

You read my post correctly .

The pony hut looked like it would be a real spindrift trap in winter with the glassless window in 2012 . Sounds like it has been fixed between our visits.

Thanks for saving me the effort of looking at a map for bothy names.

How much of a flog is it from the pony hut to the bottom of mitre ridge?

 rogerwebb 02 Feb 2021
In reply to DaveHK:

What Dave said and if one long sling and one short are of the Edelrid threading variety it can save a lot of frustration at chockstones. 

 DaveHK 02 Feb 2021
In reply to Rick Graham:

> How much of a flog is it from the pony hut to the bottom of mitre ridge?

I've not done it but I had considered doing Mitre Ridge in something like that way just to make a weekend of it.

 rogerwebb 02 Feb 2021
In reply to DaveHK:

> I've not done it but I had considered doing Mitre Ridge in something like that way just to make a weekend of it.

I think I once spent most of a weekend on it without doing that! 

 DaveHK 02 Feb 2021
In reply to rogerwebb:

> I think I once spent most of a weekend on it without doing that! 

I was more thinking whisky in the bothy afterwards.  

 rogerwebb 02 Feb 2021
In reply to DaveHK:

That does sound like a good idea. 

Post edited at 20:13
OP Exile 02 Feb 2021
In reply to DaveHK:

Thanks for details on your rack - sounds like I'm getting it right.

 DaveHK 02 Feb 2021
In reply to rogerwebb:

> That does sound like a good idea. 

Maybe a bit optimistic!

OP Exile 02 Feb 2021
In reply to TobyA:

I feel your pain.  Relatively early on in my winter climbing a friend and I once stood under an in condition Zero Gully, having been foiled on Observatory Ridge by powder snow, with not an ice screw between us.  That was the only good weather day in the week we were there. Lesson learnt.  

OP Exile 02 Feb 2021
In reply to Rick Graham:

Hi Rick.

Thanks for thought on rack for routes with a long approach - although I suspect you are more comfortable running it out than me!  I'd already thought through ropes and wondered if Mitre Ridge as a team of three may be the way to go, or take long draws and a single rope if a team of two.

I've wondered about the northern approach to Mitre Ridge ever since doing most of that approach as part of a MTB circuit of the Cairngorms, but hadn't spotted the bothy and was worried about spindrift in the pony hut.  Now knowing about the bothy it is definitely worth reconsidering. 

OP Exile 02 Feb 2021
In reply to rogerwebb:

Thanks for the suggestion of the Edelrid slings, I know what you mean re chockstone frustration so that makes a lot of sense.  

In reply to Exile:

Similar to yourself but a little less. 

I tend to carry 3x hexes, not sure of sizes but bigger than the wires

3x friends, old sizes  2,3,4 not sure what these are in new money.

Around 1.5 sets of wires, doubles in the mid range. Number goes up and down as season progresses. I spread these over 2 or 3 crabs with mixed sizes on each this helps deal with the dropsy issue. I tend not to bother with rock #1s. In extremis with a bit of BFI a wire can become a cam but you might not get it back. Also with similar amounts of brutality, the swage of a wire can be used as a copperhead but those days are best kept to a minimum. 

At least 4 long slings, these are really useful. More on easier routes.

Peg wise, A med and small angle and a knife blade. The hook can be stacked with the blade to replace the heavy arrow, or the med angle hit really hard.

One or two hooks, I cut the tape off these. They rack better, are less of a faff and the tape doesn't last long anyway when hammered in and out. 

Maybe 10 draws, mostly long including 4 tangly tripled things. 2 crabs on each long sling increases their usability. I wouldn't bother with revolver crabs, likely to freeze solid and become posh normal crabs. 

This is the third season in a row that I have blanked, so my memory may be a bit hazy. 

Post edited at 20:36
 Mark Stevenson 02 Feb 2021
In reply to Exile:

I'd climb with you with that rack on Vs and VIs without thinking too much about it. 

Only one real anomaly standards out. Are you seriously going to place and actually trust a Wallnut 1 in Winter? 

If so, you're more optimistic than I am!

Surely the whole point of carrying the knife blade, lost arrow and Terrier is that they are likely to be far better options for the thinnest of cracks? 

So, I'd suggest thinning out both Wallnut 1s, at least one if not both Wallnut 2s and one of the Wallnut 3s. That gets you down to 15 or 16 wires which is potentially workable with two racking krabs rather than three.

In a similar vein, I wouldn't consider carrying a Dragon 00. My equivalent to that size doesn't even get packed when I head to Scotland for the season. I'd probably also think twice about the size 0 unless I was certain that cracks were completely ice free. 

For grade Vs I'd normally have fewer draws, perhaps a dozen, however for grade VIs sixteen draws is not unreasonable and I've certainly climbed with that many, especially when one of my partners has been responsible for the rack.

However, DMM revolvers are useless so I'd definitely consider binning them. Great idea in theory, I had them on my rack in Winter for years but they just DON'T ever work in practice.

HTH

PS my "standard" array of Winter gear from which I'd then downselect a rack from, was optimistically packed several months ago. Apart from extra slings, screwgates and a Kong guide plate for instructing work it's not dissimilar:

  • 14 draws (8x short, 6x 60cm slingdraws)
  • 16 wires on 2 BD wireovals (Wallnuts 2-11, 5x Alloy Offsets, Rockcentric 6 on wire)
  • Dragon Cams 0-6
  • Rockcentrics 5-9 racked individually
  • Terrier + 4x pegs (2x blades, 2x lost arrow) on a BD wireoval
  • 2x Warthogs + Bulldog
  • 6x slings+screwgates (3x120cm, 1x180cm, 2x240cm)
  • 6x extra screwgates
  • 3x extra wiregates
  • Reverso 4 & krab, Kong GiGi guide plate & 2 krabs
  • 16 screws (4x22cm, 6x16cm, 4x13cm, 2x10cm) & Grivel thread hook 
 DaveHK 02 Feb 2021
In reply to Exile:

> Now knowing about the bothy it is definitely worth reconsidering. 

if I was going to do the northern approach I would probably want to do two nights in the bothy to make the whole thing more mellow. If you just did the night before in the bothy you would still have a pretty big day doing the route and riding out. Doubt there's much advantage to that over the southern approach.

Post edited at 21:11
OP Exile 03 Feb 2021
In reply to Mark Stevenson:

Thanks for that - food for thought re small wires and pegs / hooks.  I'm pretty sure I have placed wallnut 1s in winter, but can't remember exact circumstances, or how often that would be.  I'm also conscious of not bashing pegs / hooks into existing rock routes so would be reluctant to just assume I'd use pegs and hooks and not have small rock gear.

I have definitely used the friend 00 in anger on routes and been glad of it.

On reflection you and PW are almost certainly right re the Revolvers. 

OP Exile 03 Feb 2021
In reply to DaveHK:

I had come to the conclusion, like you, that two nights in the bothy to do Mitre Ridge would be a grand trip out.  However, having looked at the map I've realised the bothy is at about 600m altitude.  I don't know the area well (I've only really been there once on a Summer MTB trip) but I assume the track having quite a lot of snow / ice on it if Mitre Ridge is in condition is a real possibility, and if that was the case it would turn into a lot bigger epic than approaching from the South(?)  I also assume than, other than word of mouth, there is no real way of checking the condition of the tracks other than just going to have a look?  I'd be interested in your thoughts. 

 DaveHK 03 Feb 2021
In reply to Exile:

Yes, that's the limitation of MTB approaches. It would just be one to keep at the back of your mind and watch forecasts/snow levels. Level / volume of snow around Tomintoul/Lecht/Cairngorm ski centre might be a useful proxy. Definitely worth asking on here or other forums too as Faindouran is quite well used.

I've found that some tracks are driven by estate vehicles which packs the snow down and makes riding possible but I can't see that being a thing much past Inchrory.

Post edited at 11:26
OP Exile 03 Feb 2021
In reply to DaveHK:

Thanks for that.

 TobyA 03 Feb 2021
In reply to Exile:

> On reflection you and PW are almost certainly right re the Revolvers. 

I used to have two revolvers, lost one at some point, so now only have one - but interestingly I don't remember them ever freezing up. I got them originally when I was ice climbing every weekend, because along with screamers and skinny ropes they seemed to make a lot of sense in lowering impact force on screws as much as possible. Icefalls are sometimes very soggy even when its well below freezing so as I'm sure you've seen gear can get covered in a pure sheen of ice, so probably every now and then they freeze up, but it doesn't seem to happen often. In UK winter conditions I've never noticed mine freeze. I'm not saying they are crucial bits of kit, but I haven't found them to stop working as others seem to have!

 Mark Stevenson 03 Feb 2021
In reply to TobyA:

As regards the Revolvers, the main issue is that in pretty much ever test I've read about, the efficiency of the pulley is so low there's no significant difference between the Revolver and a standard karabiner with a smooth radius (as opposed to ridiculously tiny stuff like Nanos or 19Gs). That's before considering the fact that the rope isn't always guaranteed to sit correctly on the pulley when loaded.

I don't think a minimal advantage, at best, is worth the extra weight and minor faff of managing different extenders. 

The newer Petzl Rollclip (and probably the Grivel Roller but I don't own one) is a vastly better bit of kit with a much larger and higher efficiency pulley.  Unfortunately, the current version is too heavy for me to routinely carry on my harness in case of improvised rescues and definitely rather heavy for use on quickdraws for any onsight climbing but it's actually got some chance of delivering the real world improvement the Revolvers promised but never really delivered one.

I'd carry the Rollclip for glacier travel (if I ever get to the Alps again) and I might even consider using it on a quickdraw if I ever ended up needing to take literally dozens of falls at the same point on a long, long term sport project. 

PS Probably shouldn't be dissing the Revolvers online until I've sold the three I still own... 

 mcawle 03 Feb 2021
In reply to Mark Stevenson:

Getting off topic as it wouldn't apply for extenders, but for rescue/glacier travel would you consider the Petzl Ultralegere? https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Sport/Pulleys/ULTRALEGERE 

E.g. partner with a microtraxion or similar for a 3:1 haul. Only a few quid and 10g...

1
 Mark Stevenson 03 Feb 2021
In reply to mcawle:

Over many years I've never come across anyone who's been a fan and it's very noticeable that Petzl don't quote a % efficiency for it.

Can't be bothered Googling for any independent test results but it will certainly be less than the 71% quoted for Petzl's most basic pulleys like the Oscillate so it won't be anywhere close to a Rollclip (85%), Partner pulley (91%) or Micro-Traxion (91%).

The Rollclip Z screwgate is 105g compared to 126g for the oval screwgate (70g) and Partner pulley (56g) sold in Petzl's cravasse rescue kit.  Price wise both of these options are probably similar.

I've already got one, so it's a bit of a no brainer for me. Buying new, it's certainly a option, whether it is the best compromise, I don't know. 

Post edited at 14:40
 innes 03 Feb 2021
In reply to Mark Stevenson:

> As regards the Revolvers, the main issue is that in pretty much ever test I've read about, the efficiency of the pulley is so low there's no significant difference between the Revolver and a standard karabiner with a smooth radius

I struggle to believe this.  Can you link to the tests performed?

Having used (taken falls on) Revolvers, in my experience there is very noticeable difference by way of reduced friction at high loads.  A belayer will tell you about it immediately (once they lower themselves back to the ground)!  

 mcawle 03 Feb 2021
In reply to Mark Stevenson:

Thanks for the considered reply, that's interesting. Good point about the lack of claim about efficiency %. I wonder if it's too hard to measure reliably given that it's not fixed in place. Which would then imply that its efficiency is at best unreliable in practice. Cheers.

 LucaC 03 Feb 2021
In reply to Mark Stevenson:

> Only one real anomaly standards out. Are you seriously going to place and actually trust a Wallnut 1 in Winter? 

> In a similar vein, I wouldn't consider carrying a Dragon 00. My equivalent to that size doesn't even get packed when I head to Scotland for the season. I'd probably also think twice about the size 0 unless I was certain that cracks were completely ice free. 

I've got two or 3 size 1 wires, and a BD c3 yellow and red as my two smallest friends for routes of VII and above, and what's more, they do get placed (and occasionally tested).

My 'standard' rack isn't far off what's being suggested in the first post:

14 draws, mostly long
Double wires plus some extras/offsets spread across three crabs
DMM wired hexes 1-4
BD C3 yellow
BD C4 grey 0.4-blue 3
3x pegs
Terrier and bulldog.
3x 120cm 1x240cm slings
Personal kit, ab tat, knife

1
 DaveHK 03 Feb 2021
In reply to Mark Stevenson:

>Are you seriously going to place and actually trust a Wallnut 1 in Winter? 

I have placed size one nuts loads and if the crack is dry why wouldn't you trust it? In fact the kind of cracks where a no1 goes are probably less likely to be iced or mossy than bigger ones. Plus a crack that takes a 1 is probably about the width of a pick.

I know of at least one person doing proper hard new routes in winter that took micros. I wouldn't go that far but his justification made a lot of sense - he was doing winter ascents of summer E1-3s and you'd probably carry a few micros on such routes in the summer!

Post edited at 16:02
 Nathan Adam 03 Feb 2021
In reply to Exile:

I carry two size 1 wires and place them regularly, and would always rather a wire in good rock than banging in a hook. Obviously solid rock is the main point here but if the rock is sound then again I'd rather have a wire than a Bulldog/Terrier. 

There's been times where I've had a size 1 in that gave me the confidence to make the move that a Bulldog would not have. For all they weigh they are useful bits of kit in my mind. 

My mixed rack tends to consist of (up to VI,6 comfortably); 

Wires (doubles size 1-9 then singles of the larger)

4 Hexes (Red and Gold Torque nuts, Purple WC and big Silver BD, kept on 2 snap gates)

5-6 cams (Blue, Purple, Green, Red, Gold and sometimes big Blue, occasionally will take Gold Dragonfly as well)

Bulldog/Terrier if anywhere other than Northern Corries

12 quickdraws (6 on extendable slings)

3-4 120cm slings on snapgates 

1 240cm sling with a screwgate (partner also carries one)

Usual belay building kit (2 Petzl Attache and 2 DMM Phantoms)

I find you can re-purpose the 120cm slings as quickdraws and are more useful, spikes/threads/belays etc. than carrying extra quickdraws. If I was trying harder routes I'd probably go up to 14 quickdraws as well and double the larger wires/possibly the middle sized cams. I don't own pegs so have never carried and never missed them but keep meaning to add a few as they'd be useful in certain situations. For IV,4/5, I'd probably drop some sizes of the wires, the bigger hex and only carry 3-4 (green to gold) cams as well as 8-10 quickdraws, unless I was in the N'Corries and not too bothered about weight. 

Post edited at 16:23
 Mark Stevenson 03 Feb 2021
In reply to innes:

> I struggle to believe this.  Can you link to the tests performed?

I stopped using them quite a few years ago, but the latest online discussion I came across is https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/116586082/dmm-revolver-carabine...

Obviously, far easier to test them at lower loads hauling weights rather than with really high impact lead falls but it's clear evidence that the pulleys on them are just not particularly efficient.

I can't say I fell off regularly enough when I did use them to say categorically they don't make a difference. However, what I do know for certain is that I was repeatedly underwhelmed whenever I tried to use them to reduce rope drag when leading, including on occasions when retreating and specifically switching to using one didn't improve matters.

If you're happy using them, that's great. Personally I just don't think they come anywhere close to the original claims by DMM. 

 innes 03 Feb 2021
In reply to Mark Stevenson:

> ... the latest online discussion I came across is https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/116586082/dmm-revolver-carabine...

> ....Obviously, far easier to test them at lower loads hauling weights rather than with really high impact lead falls....

Thanks Mark.  I thought that might be the test.  I note that it was conducted using only a 10 lb (4.5 kg) weight (and possibly measured only Static Friction).  

I think DMM engineers are pretty straight about things, and would definately encourage you to take another look at Revolvers.  Just clip one into a your first runner and slump onto the rope....  then ask your belayer how they're getting on.  Simple!

Anyway, back OT...

 Myr 03 Feb 2021
In reply to Exile:

If you're expecting most cracks to be icy on the day (e.g. thaw leading straight in to sharp freeze) then you probably won't have much use for cams - maybe replace some with smaller hexes.

 Rick Graham 04 Feb 2021
In reply to Myr:

> If you're expecting most cracks to be icy on the day (e.g. thaw leading straight in to sharp freeze) then you probably won't have much use for cams - maybe replace some with smaller hexes.

I find it hard to believe that this post has been up the best part of a day. You have dared to suggest on  UKC that cams may not hold in icy cracks and that hexes may be more appropriate than cams.

Have a like .


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