UKH

From comments on another thread I’m always impressed by folk who can winter climb or bivvy with a 30litre sac. If I list what I carry, what would you omit or change for Scottish mid-grade winter days at the usual venues.  The only way I can get away with a 30litre sack is when I m soloing.

Sack is a Blue Ice Warthog 40 and in it are: (roughly from bottom to top...)

Goretex overtrousers (ex army, seldom needed TBH)

2 man bothy bag

Blizzard bag (the smaller 'Active' weight one).

1000kCal of duct taped flapjacks (2 x HighGates Fjs from Home Bargains -just live there)

Mini FAK/repair kit (Aeromedics “Cuts&Bolts” kit)

Belay jacket (Rab Photon X, size XL) -takes up a lot of room, seems better in its stuff sack.

Light dry bag with fleece balaclava, mitts, spare gloves, socks.

Harness (DMM Super Couloir)

Rack -variable listed below*.

Shell jacket (ME Kongur)

1 litre flask (bottle shaped, no cup, good for 24hrs -hot squash usually)

Crampons (DMM Gladiators in a simple flat nylon Climbing Technology bag -no point rubbers)

Bit of foam sitmat about 30cm sq.

Under Lid

8.5mm Half Rope x50m

Pack lid pocket:

Goggles

Map + compass (laminated extract/Silva mini sighter)

GPS (Garmin Vista or somesuch)

iPhone 5s in battery case and switched off

Head Torches (Alpkit Viper + spare batteries and a Petzl eLite)

TP, lighter and hand sanitizer in a sandwich bag.

Snack bar

On the outside

Helmet (Petzl Boreo)

Food (whatever it is it fits inside the helmet in a poly bag, rolls or snack bars),

Pair of ice tools (DMM Apex)

Camera in a case from shoulder strap (Canon S95)

In clothing pockets:

Car keys

Dumb Phone

Cash and a few cards in flat Fisherman’s permit wallet.

Pillbox with personal meds.

*Winter RACK -typically: (when partner has no gear). This and the belay jacket are the high volume/weight ticket items and the ones I can play around with. But this is what I start with.

Rockcentrics on tape 5-10 carried on two crabs

Rocks 1-11 on two crabs

DMM Offsets 7-11 on a crab

Superlight Rocks 5-10 on a crab

6 crabs

6 screwgates /twingates

4-6 ice screws assorted (or two if unlikely to be used)

Bulldog

Warthog & snarg (pointy warthog sheathed in snarg)

DMM Deadman if cornices expected (Lochnagar)

4 x 180cm nylon/dynema slings (Edilrid)

2 x 240cm nylon/dynema slings

4 x30cm dyneema quickdraws

1 x DMM screamer

2 pegs

Pair of prussicks

Spyderco Rescue Knife

7m x 6mm cordelette

DMM Pivot & Belay Master crab

Bivvy gear

If I was planning to bivvy I’d take more food, a bigger bit of foam mat, a Jetboil Sol, a few more heat packs and choose between a PHD Minim sleeping bag or using the Blizzard Bag, inside the bothy bag

What would you change or omit to get down to a 30 litre pack?

I'd be interested to know responses to this too. My changes:

Spread rack and bivy gear betwen partners.

Gear: You seem to be carrying 12 screwgate carabiners. 5ish Does fine. Unlikely to need pegs and bulldogs. 

Clothes:

Wear the fleece in the bag, they're part of your layering system. Do you need x2 gloves AND mitts? Compress the heck out of drybags. Helmet on the outside.

Survival and back-ups:

So many things doubled up. Ditch sitting mat, strap sleeping mat to outside and use that. Streamline repair kit to athletic tape and allen keys specific to gear, the atheltic tape also works on blisters and clothingrepair. Only take one headtorch + batteries. Ditch Blizzard bag and endure in the bothy bag flapping all over the place. Only one phone and the battery charger, keeping the charger warm within layers etc. Ditch heat packs and use the jetboil to make water for bottles to heat hands. Card and cash only, no wallet.

Meds and hygiene:

Cut out individual tablets from the rest of the blister pack. Smallest feasible bottle of sanitiser

How many times have you really used the deadman?  I've had one for years, zero usage

Personal choice but I could never really see the desire to go down to a 30 litre sac. Blue Ice lists the 40 litre sac as weighing a massive 100gms or 3.5oz heavier than the 30 litre sac. I don't climb at the standard where I would notice the smaller size of a 30 litre sac over a larger 40 litre sac.

Your question of losing bulk/weight is still valid whatever size sac you use for climbing. As usual personal preferences play a major part and you take items such as screamer, bulldog, warthog, GPS, deadman which I actually don't own. Climbing gear will linked to your standard and your boldness!

Cordellette  - ditch it and just use the rope for setting anchors.

Knife - rescue knife is quite heavy. I carry a very small Victorinox knife on the back of my harness. Fiddly in gloves but possible.

Blizzard bag or bivi bag but not both.

FAK - depends what you carry. A good Mountain First Aid kit will show how improvisations without specialist kit. you will know what you need in your personal meds.

6 screwgates - do you need that many / need all to be screwgates? (Although no real bulk saving there)

Wires - tend to carry one and half to 2 sets of wires and hexes 5-7 maybe 9.

deadman - I used to carry MSR snow stakes for speed. Much easier to use but require care. Eventually left them behind as always found alternatives.

Slings - I use Alpine draws, 8ft slings and a 16 ft sling.

Never owned a screamer but I did take a 60ft lob on to an ice screw with normal extender! (That is not a recommendation to leave or carry as I have no knowledge of screamers apart from the noise I was making)

Cheers j,

Spreading and thinning the rack is probably the biggest single impact.

I should clarify a few things

- I'm not carying a fleece (I shouldn't have written "fleece balaclava" but that's what I call it in my head!, it's just a balaclava). I find I get on with the Buffalo single layer approach so don't actually layer until I reluctantly have to put my shell or belay jacket on.

-Spare gloves I find I do need through the day and the mitts are my recovery/bivvy option.

-Helmet is carried outside (with food in a poly bag inside it) until worn.

-The pegs are really my bail-out kit, but the Bulldog gets quite a bit of use. The snarg doesn't, and neither really does the warthog. I only ever find placements for them when I m not carrying them!

-I'm carrying 6 screwgates and a few unallocated snaplinks. ( I use twingates/screwgates interchangeably)

-Yes there are some deliberate uplicates, notably navigation and light. I've got the map and compact compass (And sometimes a guidebook page as well, come to think of it,) and a standalone GPS.

The extra is really the iPhone 5s (4" screen?) and that's carried  as a backup multipurpose device for nav, comms, weather, light etc dependent on having a signal. The battery life isn't the best, nor is the cold weather performance. My dumb phone is a tiny reliable Samsung E1150i and it would fit in a trouser ticket pocket, it's so small. Battery lasts a week too. The second head torch is the tiny Petzl eLite Zip so worth its weight I think. I'm fairly relaxed about the stuff that can fit in trouser pockets

The "repair kit" has been pretty stripped out as you suggest, it just lives in the pouch that has a few plasters, strapping, compeed and saety pins in it and comprises a few fasteners, allen key, Tie-wraps and and Tenacious tape.

Now that money is waterproof you're right, I don't need the wallet, but it's simply a see through plastic pouch about the size of a bank card that keeps it together so costs neither room nor weight really.

-For day trips I only carry the smallest sit mat ( I find I use it a lot,  for placing things when in deep snow  as well as kneeling and sitting on when everything is wet). It's tied to the pack to prevent it going the way of the previous half dozen I've had.

-Meds are already optimised and carried in a small 'breath mint' tin in a trouser pocket.

-I find heat packs more versatile and easier to use than water bottles (and I'm not normally carrying the bottles, though flexi would be the way to go I suppose.) But for unplanned bivvies I wouldn't have the JEtboil. Food for thought.

Anyhoo, thanks for the input! I'll think critically next time I pack.

I think of the bothy bag as something I use all the time, sometimes just to get out of the wind and think! The Blizzard is the overnight insurance piece that would be just used if needed.

You're right about the wires and the deadman.  I find I start wanting the deadman when I'm on Lochnagar, but rarely anywhere else! (Probably what I really want is a shovel for the cornice).. It do get carried on the outside of the sack though when I do carry it. I can throttle back on wires though, dropping the Rocks, probably.

Good points on actual sack weights Prof

I've only recently started carrying the cordelette to see how I like it, and I've found with a 50m rope it can be handy when I arrive at a belay on rope stretch. It's simpler than mutiple slings, but it is bulky to carry. It can go into the 'amber' pile (or rethread a couple of my old hexes...)

Knife  The Spyderco FRN rescue isn't bad weightwise and has a big one hand opening thumb hole. If anyhing needs cut this is chainsaw. Nice-to-have though, rather than essential.

FAK - I tend to think of a FAK as 'duct tape and safety pins`, I'm with you on improvisation being the order of thee day.

6 screwgates -I seem to get through them, though maybe because I'm short on snaplinks for all those wires!

Wires - point taken.

deadman - point taken.

Slings - I use Alpine draws, 8ft slings and a 16 ft sling.

The screamer is a really compact one I bought in 1984 ( I know, I know), but since it relies on stitching failing I figure it'll still fail when needed....

Thanks for the comments!

You're carrying too much stuff, not masses, but just enough to make using a smaller sac look a bit harder than it actually is.

The main point to remember is that unless your climbing partner is completely unreliable, you should be relying on his/her kit as a back up for yours and vice-versa and not carrying additional spares yourself. 

I have only used a Blue Ice Warthog 26 for Winter mountaineering and climbing for the previous 6-7 seasons, regardless of route/grade.  I have no issues now with packing it, at least at the start of the day. Topping out on the Ben in a blizzard at night is a different case I just accept that occasionally I'll probably need to keep wearing the harness and rack etc. for the walk out.

Waterproofs. Routinely carrying heavy duty waterproof trousers or a jacket in the rucksac doesn't make the most sense. I'm not one of them, but the majority of Winter climbers I know have a layering system where they wear their hardshells by default, generally with an extra mid layer in the sac initially. That's worth considering. If that doesn't work for you, can you go with a lighter hardshell in future? 

Why are you carrying the shelter AND the 1st aid kit? Your partner should probably be carrying one of them. (1st aid contents are a different discussion...) 

Ditch the blizzard bag, you've got a shelter and the belay jacket.

Get a good shaped and sized dry bag for your beley jacket so you can really compress it down. I found a more 'cuboid' shaped Osprey one to be much better than the normal, more traditional cylindrical ones.

The Photon X is amazing and super warm. However, I don't always take mine. Sometimes, with a better forecast I revert back to the lighter RAB Generator Alpine which it replaced. It does make the packing a bit easier.  It's perhaps worth considering alternative options/scenarios depending on route/weather. 

I'd ditch the emergency rations as a default and only pack on rare occasions where the objective is a really remote crag or a big route.

Definitely ditch the spare socks unless fording a river is part of the plan.

There are lighter and more compact harnesses now available. For mountaineering routes I use a Blue Ice Choucas harness (with the gear loops improved/stiffen with some plastic tubing glued over the thin fabric). It packs to less than half of the size of my proper climbing harness and I store it rolled up in a tiny mesh pouch rather than just stuffing it in the rucksack. In the meantime, experiment with the most compact way of packing/folding the Super Couloir. 

I only ever carry 350ml of hot squash in an insulated mug. Lots of other climbers I know carry about 500ml. Do you really need a full litre every day?

Crampons. Find a good, efficient way to pack them so the points aren't protruding and they aren't loose inside the crampon bag. Yours are similar to my Grivel Air Tech which slide to a more compact size. I store them with points facing each other and front points in opposite directions but then bind them really securely together with the straps. Unless I've just sharpened them I often don't bother with the bag. It makes them stable, compact and safer for putting in the rucksac at the expense of an extra few minutes prep and perhaps 30 seconds extra when taking them out to put on.

Not convinced about the sitmat. Great for Winter walking days where stopping for lunch to enjoy the view is likely. Probably less relevant for either climbing days or fast/light mountaineering days. 

Electronics. One fully charged smartphone in a chest pocket. Nothing else. No need for separate camera, GPS, battery or spare. If your (reliable) partner has another one, that's enough of a back up in my opinion.

​​​​​​I thought most torches had rechargeable batteries, so I wouldn't have spare batteries although there would be spare torch for the pair, probably in the 1st aid kit.

RACK - Seems fairly standard except for the Deadman (4 axes within a pair should be sufficient if a snow belay, or running belay is absolutely necessary to deal with a cornice) and the Snarg (they were useless even 20+ years ago!). 

FWIW I think racking hexes individually is much better, but YMMV. 

Four krabs of wires is overkill unless you are getting on really sustained mixed routes. Really try to get it down to two. Thin out the smaller sizes and potentially use a marginally larger racking krab like a BD Wire oval. My default rack is 16 wires - Alloy Offsets, Wallnuts 2-11, plus an approximate Wallnut 12 (Rockcentric 6 on wire) - the 9-10 smallest wires on one krab, the 6-7 largest wires on the other.

I'd generally be carrying a few more quickdraws and 60cm slings + wiregates (some made up as alpine draws, some over my shoulder). However, I would not normally be carrying multiple long slings plus 6mm tat/cordelette unless I knew I was going to be leading everything. 

Regardless of who I'm climbing with and whatever discussion we have about a rack in advance, people always seem to have extra 120cm sling and screwgate on their harness so I tend to pare them down a bit on my side. I do generally add a couple of extra wiregates.

I stopped carrying screamers years ago. Long, involved discussions are possible but I don't see the point for Scottish stuff.

-

Just bite the bullet, buy a smaller rucksack and start working on YOUR SYSTEM.

Just keep experimenting and refining things every day you're out. With a bit of forethought and some extra effort, it's not that hard to find something that will work for you.

HTH 

Replace the overtrousers with a system you actually wear.

Ditch emergency rations, if the shit hits the fan you can survive a night out with no additional food.

Take either the blizzard bag or the bothy bag, probably the former.

One phone is plenty.

What's the cash for?

Only take goggles if it's going to be windy.

Sitmat? Don't think I ever sit down on a Scottish winter day!

Get a smaller flask. I use a 500ml one and carry a 500ml plastic water bottle down my top on the walk in. I drink all of this as soon as I get to the crag while it's still warm and if it's a long walk in I fill it up on the way too.

Hand sanitizer? Guess I'm just a dirty bastard. Not sure about the lighter either just put the dirty TP back in the plastic bag and pack it out.

That rack is pretty huge, do you really carry all that as a matter of course? I'd tailor it to route and conditions. 

Ditch the snarg, they're old tech. 6 screwgates would be plenty between 2. Only take a warthog if it's a turf route. Only take screws if it's an ice route. Why carry 2 screws if they're unlikely to be used? The bulldog or warthog would work in that scenario. I only bother with pegs on harder routes or certain rock types. I've never bothered with a screamer. I carried a deadman for one season about 30 years ago. It's now buried in the garden as a slackline anchor.

Usually the only way people go winter climbing with a 30l sack is with stuff on the outside. I like everything inside the bag and manage with a 40 or 45l, can't remember offhand which it is.

The one bit that I disagree with is the amount of fluid carried. I usually carry two litres of water, and seldom a flask, though it can be nice when you have a break in affairs. I usually drink half a litre or more getting to the north face of the Ben or wherever, so that I am reasonably hydrated at the start of the climbing. I'm definitely less strong/fit if I'm dehydrated. Plus I can get signs of being half-way house to having a migraine if I'm dehydrated. This results in vision problems, and headache, which makes it harder to plan and think in difficult situations.

I'm definitely more robust if I am better hydrated, which helps at the end of the day getting back out to the road; plus I don't have problems with dehydration persisting to the next day's climbing. Even 2 litres is not that much.

I know that I could and do top up at the CIC hut or in similar places, but I have ended up with gut problems in the past after drinking outdoor water.

I think the question you should be asking is whether/how to get the weight down, not how to get your stuff into a smaller sack. As someone else said, a smaller sack might save very little weight, and it brings disadvantages of its own. My preference is for a big, roomy sack and squash it down with the compression straps when there is not much in it.

Perhaps the ideal is to have a 30 l dry bag inside a 40l sac. That way you can have good packing discipline in the morning, and loads of spare space to shove stuff into at the top.

You might not like the sound of it, but this is how people get away with small sacks:

Wouldn't bother unless the weather is bad enough that I'm wearing them. 

Don't bother with either, you have a a belay jacket and a rucksack and a rope to sit on. 

Ditch, you have your lunch. If you run out, be hungry. 

Yes, but strip it right down to almost nothing, like a cut-off of duct tape and 2 zip ties

Ditch balaclava, use layers that have hoods. Ditch the socks. 

Get a lighter one. 

Ditch it. Sit on your rucksack. 

Spare batts not necessary if you've got a spare torch. You're partner will also have a spare torch, it's highly unlikely you'll both need them. 

Leave you're wallet in the car, unless there's a cafe at the top. 

Too many

Ditch it

I may have missed something, but you carry all those wires and only 4 draws and a screamer? If you're only placing 4-8 pieces per pitch, then Ditch half your rack. If you're placing 10-14 pieces per pitch then keep the rack and add more draws. 

Ditch it. 

Brutal, I know. But if you want to carry a smaller bag, you have to carry less stuff. 

Lots above, but if you're going to carry an emergency spare - don't carry it in the same place as the primary.  Torch in your bag, e-lite in a pocket (with a nappy/safety pin if necessary).  if your epic involves a rucksack ****ing off down the hill it avoids embarrassment

To be honest, my only real comment is that you appear to be carrying stuff for a pair of people on yourself. Yeah, there are a few extras there but the main thing is, under normal circumstances I wouldn't be carrying the whole rack *and* all that stuff *and* the bothy bag, much of this would be split between two people. Other than that, the rucksack I usually use is a 45 that is side-strap compressible to less than 30 and is barely heavier than my 30, it's more flexible. The main reason I'd go down to the 30 would be to actively force myself to take less or hand stuff to my partner.

These people who bang on all the time about how tiny their sack is but then make you carry all the bulky stuff are really quite annoying.

Another thing I would add is don’t bring a stuff sack for your belay jacket, stuff it into the full pack as the last or second to last item, this helps it take up all the dead space and means it’s quicker to get it in an out. I’d also put your crampons on the outside of you pack, generally easy enough to rig up a bungee cord on the back which will hold them in place. If you’re bivvying you may also have to sling the rope over the top (and you’d likely ditch both the emergency bag and the bothy bag). Echoing what over people have said though you could also slim down some of the spares/extras your carrying. For example I fit all my emergency food/shelter/repair stuff into a about 1liter of a small dry sack.  

Brilliant stuff guys, I can see  how I'm over-egging things.  The only reservations I have  are that I'd go with the bothy bag rather than the Blizzard as being more used/ useful / sociable, and I have the same dehydration/ migraine tendency as Veteye so the litre is probably worth carrying though maybe in a platy rather than a flask. The rack definitely needs thinning, though Ive been tending to carry all the hardware for two, that can change. The ' old clutter' gear will get left at home with the Emrats ballast and non-forecast clothes.

Been a great help! Thanks

There isn't much that's significantly smaller and lighter. I'd say that's one bit the OP could keep.

I'd be happy to go climbing with you if you're going to carry all the rack.  

I note some of your equipment.

DMM Gladiators, Buffalo Special 6 and Mardale pile/pertex jacket here.

Not modern, fashionable but still fantastic.

Enjoy the winter when you can.

Heh Heh, "Old's Cool" as they say!

Either ditch them or wear them if the weather is bad. I routinely climb in mine unless it's a super nice day.

Ditch. You've got a bothy bag.

Just take your lunch.

Get your mate to carry the FAK if you've got the group shelter. Go minimal: Trauma bandage, tape, zip ties, painkillers.

Just stuff it in your bag loose to take up all the free space.

Ditch the socks and balaclava. Gloves and mitts can just go in loose for easier packing into small spaces.

I routinely climb in mine, as per waterproof trousers. If it's going to be an amazing day I'll just take my soft-shell.

500ml thermos does me. Pre and post hydrate and accept some dehydration during the day. Lots of water in many places in Scotland too if you need a refill. 

These go on top of the rope under the lid.

No need for this.

View ranger on both your phones should be sufficient. 

In my fleece pocket keeping warm.

Make sure the batteries are charged and ditch the spares.

Take a dump before you leave the house.

I often take my A7 either wrapped in my belay jacket or just out around my neck.

You've already got an iPhone.

Leave them in the car, why do you need any money on a winter day?

Thats a lot of spare crabs. 

Snargs are useless. Only carry the warthog if you know you're on a turf route.

You can manage without.

Use the rope.

You're never going to get a full winter technical rack, clothes, stove, bivvy gear etc in a 30l sack unless you're going to be racked up for the walk in. Who needs to go and bivvi and then do a route in the UK anyway? If you did, you're probably going to take a 50l sack, leave all your kit at your camp site and then climb with one small rucksack between two of you (at least I would). 

I'd omit the offsets just because I hate them. I'd be tempted to take more regular nuts rather than the superlights because I find the hole in regulars useful for removal (with tip of axe).

I'd not take the deadman, bulldog, snarg or warthog because you've already got better alternatives. 

I'd not take the GPS because you've already got alternatives (but I would take my altimeter watch because I use this as part of dead reckoning and it is faff free to consult it).

I'd rack using sling draws with 1-2 QDs and some longer slings.

I'd take a homemade hook for Abolokov threads if I took screws (weighs nothing, fits inside long screw). I wouldn't take a backup phone. I'd probably take less cord but I wouldn't bother to cut down 7m just for this. 

I wouldn't put my lunch in the helmet on the outside of the bag (a) you might lose it (b) it creates extra faff as soon as you want to put your helmet on and (c) you definitely want space in your bag for your food.

I'd normally carry a single drybag with emergency and spare stuff (extra fleece, thin running rights, spare gloves) and a couple of thin poly bags.

I'd carry a neck gaiter and a buff (ie a thin buff and a thick/thin buff) but not a balaclava (which is a just a less useful and more faffy buff). I might carry hand warmers (teabag sort) and sleeves.

I'd carry a smaller and less fancy knife- a basic swiss army thing.

More importantly I'd pack in anticipation of use and faff reduction by layering my bag accordingly.  I'd spread my food out so I could snack faff-free on the go or double up any other faff stops with food and water.

I find it quite straightforward to pack a smalish sack at home or in the carpark. Different story at the end of the day in the dark, when it's blowing a hoolie and everything, including your hands, are frozen. Then, an extra 10 litres makes a world of difference.

Have you tried using your iPhone 5s in the cold? Mine's useless up a mountain in winter, doesn't hold any charge.

You don't need to worry about your packing skills, I think you're doing well to horse all of that lot into a 40l sack! 

Photon X is a big boy even in a stuff sack but absolutely worth it on the hill.

I've suspected this TBH. I've used  the mapping GPS app on it once or twice and seen very low battery showing. I don't know if re-warming restores power? Mine's in a still pretty compact 2000mAh case but even so I should move it to an inside pocket.

The wee dumb phone is bulletproof by comparison.

HA! That cheered me up no end!

That's a good point - if you're likely to need the phone, arrange to have an inside, close to body warmth, pocket for your phone and keep it in a drybag/ziplock bag turned off so it stays warm and charged.

Ideally don't require it for anything!

Yep, all too heavy for me. What you carry also depends on whether it is early January or late Feb of course. I was always taken by Yvon Chouinard's intro to his book 'Ice Climbing'. 'Leave most of the impedimentia behind. Don't take a bivvi bag you'll only bivvi'. The greatest safety factor you have is being active, moving fast, and learning what you actually need from experience. Extra weight used to really slow me down. 

Dangerous advice in my opinion. It is all very well until, one day, the shit hits the fan (up until that point experience will have suggested it won't but common sense would have told you it probably will). A bothy bag is a no-brainer life saver as far as i am concerned.

....I don't think you have to take it literally. You may decide a bothy bag is the right thing to take, but for me, it got across the message that moving quickly is a crucial safety/comfort factor. 

Agreed. A bothy bag is worth the weight and bulk. 

Both are valid points. I just think that an unqualified "light is always right" message is dangerous.

Yes, brilliant kit.

The lightweight bothy bags are MUCH lighter and more compact and seem robust enough.

My two-man is about 260g and I guess under 750ml. This is alot smaller than standard ones...light enough even for (some) runners.

RE Bothy Bags, before I used one I wouldn't have credited how much of a morale lift you get from a breather in one, and a chance to take stock, chat easily , check map and eat out of the wind on the worst of days. The world suddenly seems a different place, maybe rose-tinted through the orange nylon, but whatever it is, it works.

I've added a bit of tether cord to mine to clip it to my sack before opening to avoid launching the whole kite when first unfurled in typical conditions.  A captive stuff sack is also a good feature.

....but a judgement call can be made as to when its weight and bulk is worth it. That's what it's all about. Why take it everywhere you go?

When I work as an instructor, summer or winter, I always take a bothy bag. When someone asks for advice on the internet, my advice is always take a bothy bag. 

Do I always carry a bothy bag when I'm personal climbing? Not always, I do make the judgement call, but for a winter climbing or mountaineering day it's probably going to come with me.  

I see a lot of redudancy. Like blizzard bag And bothy. 
 

also, ditch the heavy gore gear (or the softshell stuff), it’s either or. Not both. But with softshell a lightweight waterproof jacket is fine. 
 

instead of packing the belay jacket in the sack, stuff it under the helmet. Same thing with crampons, you don’t need the pouch If you strap them outside the sack.

streamline the rack and spread with your climbing partner. Like someone mentioned 12 lockers is s bit excessive. The 5 including one for belay device and another for a prusik should be enough. 
 

for the record, I managed my weeks climbing in Scotland on Warthog 26 without any problems. 

You might be the exception that proves the rule but almost everyone I see trying to do this just ends up with badly packed sac - laughably so in the case of one climbing partner, who repeatedly had one of the worst packed rucsacs I've ever seen... 

Strange. Having plenty of room makes packing easier, more versatile and far less faff getting at stuff.

Fine.

Not sure what rucsac you're using, but having been thinking about it some more, it may be that some of the more modern lightweight ones like the popular Arc'teryx Alpha FL 45 have less structural support than more traditional ones. I suspect they work best when relatively full as they're the most common style of sacs that I've seen looking like a lopsided banana when only half full... 

I've just had a go at packing the Warthog 40 taking on board  (most of) the recommendations of the thread.

So I've ditched....

Grotex overtrousers, Blizzard bag, Emrats, sitmat, balaclava, socks, 

and my basic rack is lighter by 6 wires, 2 hexes, 6 crabs, 2 pegs, 1 cordelette, Snarg, warthog, deadman, and a 2oz Spydeco knife.  ( So I kept 10 smaller and 6 larger wires, 5 hexes on dynema, Bulldog, 6 screw gates, and decided to carry the slings as Alpine draws and just take 2 30cm quickdraw.) I swapped all the snap link crabs around for wire gates. I'll add ice screws as and when required.) And I'll be sure to share gear next trip too.

Crampons are out of their bag but inside the sack, iPhone will be in a body-heated clothing pocket, head torches, flask and heat pads I'm happy with.

 The reduction in bulk and weight seems disproportionate to the simple changes, and the 40  is now easy to rummage around and cinches in at will. I won't bother trying to drop to a 30, but what an improvement! Thanks again everybody

I use a POD Black Ice for pretty much everything except rock climbing when I am going to be carrying it on a route (I have a 35 litre Lowe thing for that) and for cragging with short approaches for which I have a huge 100 litre thing which takes the kitchen sink, and for going to the wall for which use use a 32 year old Karrimor Alpiniste.  The Black Ice is 50 litres I think (plus 10 litres when extended and I've never had any issues with it. Bombproof - mine is 10 years old and going strong, and I have another stockpiled which I bought off someone on here for when it dies.

I'd second that. Buffalo gear ain't cool looking but its great on a Scottish mountain when it gets gnarly. I've lost count of the number of times we get back to the hut and people comment on how cold it was, and I think "was it"?

I remember skiing on Cairngorm. It was -9 and blowing at 60mph so I put my pile pertex belay jacket over my buffalo (top and salopettes). Had to take it off after the first run as I was too hot.

For stuffsacs (if needed), I'd recommend Sea to Summit eVac. The base of them is eVent, which allows air out but is still water-tight. They get compressed in your bag and end up very compact and fitting to the shape of the space, rather than like a little bowling ball. 

Why do you need so many screwgates? 2 would be fine for belaying, replace the others with some tiny wiregates. They weigh half as much so you can carry some extras. If you need some extra security you can back-to-back them on your anchor or whatever. Lockers as a pain in winter anyway. 

Superlights and DMM offsets basically do the same job. Do you need a double set of offsets?

Get rid of the snarg. 

You have plenty of slings to build anchors on long pitches, so get rid of the cordalette; that must be massive. Dyneema slings can be a bit fiddly for anchors in winter and if you find that's the case then I'd recommend swapping out a couple of aramid cord slings. These are much easier to knot. 

It's warm and windproof and robust and I used it for years but I think things have moved on a bit and there are better systems out there for what I do. 

Cheers Paul,

I hadn't heard of those dry sacks, but the ones I have are Sea to Summit as it happens. I use the one in my pack without sealing it so it doesn't trap air -it still isn't going to let anything get wet where it is, and it squishes down (though it doesn't"ratchet" air out as the ones you describe might).

Somone upthread misunderstood me as carrying 12 screwgates, but I meant I carried 6 altogether (e.g. 2 screwgates and 4 Grivel twin gates). You might still think 6 excessive, but it's comfortable for fussy belays at both ends.

Doubling the offsets and superlights makes sense for Cairngorm granite as the most commonly used sizes that seem to suit the crack shapes available. Those and tape slings ( i use Edelrid's 12mm Tech slings -nylon covered dyneema) are the bulk of placements I see.

A few posts up I summarise what I've ditched and what I still carry. Thanks again

We still haven't got to the bottom of why you're carrying all the rack have we?

With the price of new Buffalo going through the roof and mine getting on a bit, what would you recommend in the same vein?

I run hot (and wet if I'm not careful!) and find the B. Mountain shirt for example enough in the wildest weather I've been in. I've never been cold, but the weather limitation is just saturating in relentless sleet. Another shortcomig is that as soon as I put a shell on top of it it gets wet through underneath -warm enough, but not the best feeling...). A second buffalo on top would be ideal but proved impractical to carry (I tried). I do sometimes carry a Vapour Rise instead of the Goretex shell (as in profile pic) and it's better for transpiration, but I'm open to suggestions

To buy something in the hospital after being airlifted out?

Car gets stolen and you want to phone a taxi who will have to drive a long way into the middle of nowhere and think you might be a hoax unless you pay up front?

For the sake of a few grams, I'd feel a bit naked without the "survival kit" of society with me. I'd normally make sure I had means of payment in the car and with me, to cover the loss of rucksack or vehicle.

Polertech alpha is pretty good if you run hot and wet.

It depends a bit on exactly how you're operating. I used pertex and pile smocks for a lot of years but ultimately realised I was not particularly comfortable in them. Plus the weight and bulk put me off too. The main problem was that they were too hot for climbing in so I arrived at stances damp and then got cold. Maybe not a problem if you're moving faster as a team but unpleasant on longer belays.

What I do now is walk in in a light base layer then take that off and put on 2 layers of gridded fleece (ME Eclipse type thing) and my hardshell . The grid fleece is light and breathes very well but is less warm so I finish a pitch less sweaty. I then put on a belay jacket which keeps me comfortable for the long wait. I find this more comfortable, lighter and less bulk than buffalo style garments.

Alpha as recommened above sounds like it does a similar job.

What do you use. I have tried lots of combos but buffalo is hard to beat.

I often use a Paramo over the top. It doesn’t get wet inside, but is pretty bombproof in sleet and cold wet conditions. If it’s cold I might carry a primaloft belay jacket.

You should choose your rack depending on the route(s) you're going to do that day. You don't need a dead man in Scotland, trust me.

I once spent a February night out on the Ben so what comes next is informed by that experience. You need to have enough with you to ensure you will survive a night out and be able to walk back to the car. The clothes you take need to keep you dry during the day. The guy I was with didn't stay dry and had a very uncomfortable night, I thought he'd died a couple of times. You need a bag of some sort for shelter, preferably one with some insulation qualities. You will use you rucsac as a sleeping bag/mat so there is a certain merit erring on the large side. A Snicker is enough to get you through the night, maybe two.

If you can read a map, ditch the GPS. A compass won't die on you with a flat battery.

I never carried a water bottle in winter and was only ever thirsty once in three decades. Most approaches to crags in Scotland follow a burn for most of the way, why carry water when you're ten meters from running water?

In summation, work from the bottom up. What do I need to climb the route? What do I need to stay warm and dry? What do I need to eat? What's the minimum extra stuff I need to survive a night out? Anything else is suplus.

See my reply to Basemetal above. If Buffalo works for you, great.

I can read a map fairly well but used in combination with a map I think a GPS is pretty damn handy.

This, especially on "plateaux" and complex terrain in poor viz. Even if only for confirmation of location it reduces anxiety levels enormously. Most of my experience was on pre-GPS days and it's such a boost to confidence I think it well worth the weight.

Which Paramo? I find the ranges confusing.

Enduro. Its not light but its warm so you can take less layers.

Cheers, as long as I'm wearing it the weight won't bother me. I'll have a look at them.  

Ditch the flask and food.  It may take a bit of getting used to, but its really no big deal going without food if you're out for day.

Compeed?  If you've been wearing you're boots long enough to know if you are going to get blisters.  I'd also get rid of the rest of the FAK.  I carried one when I lead groups.  But what 'accident', or injury are you going to have in which a FAK of the kind you carry is likely to be of any practical use.  No one is likely to die or become incapacitated because they need a plaster on a small cut. 

Iphones and stuff all add up to a considerable amount.   Map *& Compass and one phone/gps is surely enough.  More than enough.

Bothy bag?  Yvon Chouinard said, "if you carry a bivvi bag, you'll end up using it".  If you don;'t have one you'll make sure you  get into a position where you.ll need it.  

(Although in fairness I think I've always taken one of those small  orange, plastic 'survival bags)

You could also log/note after each trip, what kit you actually used and cut your future kit for similiar outings.

For 'medium' grade outings you carry far, far more climbing kit that I ever did for II III IV winter climbs.

True perhaps, but...

Food makes a lot of difference to energy and morale, and plain old fashioned enjoyment. I'm not functioning at any athletic limit state so being sensibly comfortable has some value. I've seen the effect of a flapjack on a listless knackered waif  and sometimes have to tell folk  to drink something so they can keep up, even while they mutter about not being thirsty or feeling like eating. In times of deep frosts I've seen no safe access to water, even just going into the Norries or the Ben, and like a few folk I  tend to get migraine ( a real one, not just a bit  headachy) when dehydrated.

Compeed? I've used a bit once in the last 10 years, but was glad I had it. 10g weight I can live with. Days out are expensive so spoiling the ship for the ha'porth of tar would be daft.

At 350g the bothy bag doesn't break the bank for me either. The electronics could be a slippery slope, but for day trips I can pick and choose -  the iPhone would be first  to drop, a dedicated GPS and dumb phone pretty much fixtures.

With weight versus benefit in mind  I can solo or carry a rope and gear. How much gear is related to how clear my objectives are. A "turn up and see what's in" day needs more choice - I find the most frustration when I'm carrying gear and but haven't got the right bit... But doesn't everybody

A bothy bag was mentioned to be taken when instructing which is of course a lot different than for a personal adventure. 

It had other mentions too. There's a huge difference in weight and practicality between a 4-8 man size KISU and a light 2 man bothy bag.

I think thats totally insane and verging on dangerous, not taking any food or a hot drink for a winter hill day?!

I did mention a both bag in relation to instructing, but also that I would take it on personal adventures. I think it's worth the weight and space if you're going out somewhere remote.

Unfair to quote you on this, but priceless if you read it carefully...

It really depends... but in content of scottish winter climbing, I do agree with you.

In fact for water, that is needed always. For food, it depends. But truth be told a sandwich or flapjack or two don't really add up all that much.

When I was still climbing longer stuff or doing long day trips to crags and back, I often realised that I was eating my grub on the drive back home (or as a combo lunch/dinner/evening snack). That being said, at that time I was rather used to going on an empty stomach from when I woke up (6-7'ish) until about midday, when I had some salad & soup... and only ate properly at closer to 21 or even 22.  So if I ate a big breakfast I could go for quite a while without eating anything solid. This was really true for longer moderate to hard (for me, so HVS to E2'ish) rock routes. On some of the longer and more sustained hard ones, I really needed to force myself to eat something.

Winter is however a completely different thing, and one needs a lot more energy to even keep a constant body temp. In fact I do recall that even though it wasn't all that cold when I was in Scotland (thanx BMC for having that international meet), it was almost the coldest week I've endured... simply cause everything was so bloody damp all the time. That being said, -30 is indeed colder... but more often than not -20 feels less cold.

So, to get back on track. No grub might work if your body is used to such situations... but certainly not a useful advice for a n00b. As for the water, of that I'm even more skeptic... unless we are just talking about nordic walking at a snails pace for a few hours... if you put on any constrain, you will sweat and you will need to drink. Depending on the levels you climb, it might not make any difference, but realistically dehydration, even slight one will start to show quite easily... you'll be slower, both in action and also in ye head.. and that is not good... slow and getting slower is not where you want to be... 'cause then also your energy reserves and levels start to drop, causing even more slowness...


I really good training book on the matter is Mark Twights old Extreme Alpinism... the core ideas are still as sound as ever. But you need experience in picking up the good core idea and tweaking it to suit your situation... it is certainly not a how to do manual.

Ah yes, but your qualifying it again by including 'going somewhere remote'. Judgement call again.most people don't climb in remote spots as there would be too much to carry in.

In my experience, bothy bags are brilliant but rarely worth their weight. Just carried as you said as an insurance policy if you are responsible for someone.

For years I carried an old school orange bivvy bag, but a while ago began taking a 2 man bothy shelter instead (I do have a much larger version for use taking groups out). Having used both for real, a bothy shelter is far more useful for several reasons, and the one I have is actually slightly lighter than a heavy duty orange bag, which only holds one person. So a no-brainer really. 

Food/drink needs are a personal thing, but while I am fairly confident I could survive the typical winter day without eating or drinking anything, it might not be much fun in the later stages, which is the point of it all. And though it all depends on your metabolism etc, more chance of trips and stumbles if running on fumes, so relevant to safety.

For me the only purpose of of lightening your load is to be more efficient in the hills, and do the routes you want to do. 

Bothy bags - For me personally the weight of a bothy bag is going to make no difference to my performance, but will allow me to psychologically go a bit further or try a bit harder, so actually helps me get the 'top end' stuff (for me) done.  Alongside this you can obviously spend the night in it and I think in combination with a belay jacket and a friend, although it would not be comfortable, you'd be likely to survive the night, which would not necessarily be the case without one.  I think all those who have used a bothy bag in anger know what a game changer they are.

Food - In terms of food, for me the overall effect on my performance of eating the food I carry is far greater than my performance would be having saved that weight but not eaten.  I have got to the end of a day having eaten nothing / very little, but I would not use a good day out not needing food as a blueprint for every day out.  In my experience of being out in winter, taking out of the equation catastrophic events like avalanches or lead falls, most issues arise late in the day and are the accumulation of little errors that have occurred through the day.  Once it's late, and it's all gone to shit, not having any food to fuel you in an adverse situation you didn't foresee, (or actually, not having a bothy bag,) could be one weight saving measure too many. 

Lastly, if you plan on winter climbing two days on the trot eating through the first day will aid recovery and the enjoyment of the second day.

I can think of one fatal accident in the Cairngorms where the victims were caught in a storm and died of exhaustion/exposure. They didn't have food with them.

If you get lost or you get into bad weather you need to have the energy available to get back out of it.

I can't agree with you there. It may be an insurance policy but it is your policy as well as anyone you are responsible for. Maybe you will need it, maybe you won't, but, if you do and don't have one you will never need one again. I know two people who lived because they had one (or its predecessor the bivi bag). I also used to know some other people. 250g in a winter sack isn't a route breaker, the second is usually carrying the sack anyway.

Remote is a variable concept. In clear weather R151 can pull you out of the Fisherfield in an hour. In rubbish weather the top of the goat track can be a long way away. 

Well a lot gets lost in translation. Of course you'd carry a shelter in situations where you are responsible for people. Its an insurance policy as you'd be silly setting out with individuals or a group in conditions where you would expect to have to use it. You could of course carry a bothy bag to use purposely for a comfortable lunch, but the thread wasn't asking for this. Your risk assessment would mean that in most situations it would be with you just in case.

I was responding to the posters thoughts......

'what would you omit or change for Scottish mid-grade winter days at the usual venues'.

I didn't assume he meant in a guiding situation......did you? I was thinking the Ben, a route you were aspiring to, and the last thing I'd want is a heavy sac. So I would take the essentials, but wouldn't want a bothy bag weighing me down on the walk in or the crux. A bivvi bag would be good, slid down the back of the sac. I would want conditions, as in, enough daylight, hill fitness,  an early start, favourable weather that wasn't due to deteriorate, knowledge that there would be other climbers about perhaps, good personal clothing systems, confidence that I could navigate my way down, a well packed sac with what I need accessible,  a reliable partner of equal ability.........and as light a sac as I can get away with.

If you're talking about guiding at remote crags then that's  different. 

265g https://www.summitgear.co.uk/product/supalite-bothy-bag-2-person/

110g https://www.leisureoutlet.com/safety-and-survival/camping-essentials/campin...

Which I take depends on what I'm doing but I always take one or the other. If I take the bothy bag my partner can ditch their survival bag or whatever and carry something else instead of me.

Three alternative ways of saving weight when winter climbing, all of which have their merits:

1. Go heavy. Take a larger sac containing a big flask, big bait, extra warm stuff. This is left in the corrie, climb without a sac or with one of those lightweight sacs that packs down smaller than your fist. Good for extended trips as you are less likely to be playing catch up on the eating and drinking all the time.

2.Stash your kit. If you know you are returning to the same venue then find a handy place to stash your kit overnight. Mark the spot on your GPS, or leave a pole in case it snows heavily overnight. Tailor what you leave depending on forecast, it is not a good idea to leave soaking wet soft stuff out to freeze overnight. 

3. Climb as a group of three, this can be faster than in a pair and there is always a fresh pair of arms for the next pitch. 

You could even combine all three. 

Strategic thinking can save kilos. 

I find it odd that you think a bothy bag would weigh more or be bigger than a bivi bag.

If you can rely on that, especially the weather bit and be 100% sure of not breaking your leg or any other disabling accident then not carrying a shelter is fair enough.

I am also hoping that no one is climbing on the Ben with hill fitness sufficiently marginal that 250g shared between two is critical to success

I'm not. 

I agree with your 250g comment wholeheartedly. Discussions like these remind me of my cycling days where riders spend £££s to save a few grammes but neglect to see what they are carrying around their middle.

Somewhere up thread a poster suggested not carrying drink and instead drinking from streams. Go very carefully with this, drinking from the Alt a mhuillin burn could cause some pretty rapid weight loss given what gets left behind around it. 

I climb without my rucksack more often than not. I have a 15l drybag with straps, when I pack it the night before I fill it in the order I'll need the items. A couple of bars, gels, belay gloves at the bottom then belay jacket then the dry tops I'll change into for climbing. The dry tops come out and go on in the corrie (or on the summit on Beinn Eighe and such like!), my headtorch goes in, then I carry the wee bag on the route. It's light and squishable on the back so doesn't get in the way in chimneys etc. I prefer it to clipping stuff onto my harness or stuffing pockets/inside hardshell like some people do.

https://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/equipment-c3/rucksacks-c19/all-ruck...

I use a decathlon £5 shopping rucsac, it packs down smaller than my fist (it has a handy drawstring to pack into itself) and weighs about the same as a cereal bar.

Problem is it is so useful for day to day stuff, it can be difficult to find when I want to use it for climbing. The headtorch problem all over again. 

I used something similar for a while but the wee dry bag is a bit more spindrift proof.

Generally we go for one sack goes into the other, second carries them. Unless we are definitely passing the base of the route again in which case its a stripped out sack with bothy bag, belay jacket, food, drink etc. Leader carries headtorch, compass and a print out map in pockets. Belay gloves inside the hardshell in the small of the back.

I will have a look at your dry bag idea for anywhere that isn't a thrutch fest.

I think the responsible way is to plan, pack and make decisions as if there were no other climbers around (and indeed no MRT in existence). 

Priceless!!  Must read my reply more carefully  before pressing post next time.  But I'm sure you know what I meant!

(But just for clarity Y C, was stating that if you take one you'll end up using it.  If you don't carry one you'll make sure you get into a position where you do not need one.) 

Being well acquainted with the OP I can add that he was thinking practically about what would be carried for a winter climbing day in terms of rack, kit and emergency gear, with an envious eye on the smaller lighter neater packs he sees carried by better climbers.

The discussion on this thread has been interesting and enormously helpful, even though he's hardly a spring chicken, nor new to the hills. 

One additional thing I've noticed is the room I can save (at least on setting out) by unclipping my rack from the harness and laying stuff in neatly when packing. Should have been obvious, that...

But would food have made any difference?  Perhaps they did have food and ate it?

I think Chouinard was talking about taking bivvy kit rather than a 250g bothy bag or survival bag which is what was being discussed. His point as I understood it was that the extra weight of bivvy kit would slow you down and make it more likely for you to need to bivvy. That doesn't really apply to a lightweight emergency shelter, you're not suggesting going without one of those are you? 

I can't remember the last time I bothered taking liquid into the Scottish mountains in winter.  There's plenty of water and normally enough snow.

Generally I don't bother with food, during the day, but with practice I found it OK.  Your body gets into the habit of having food at certain times of the day.  Similarily I work outside all day (hedgelaying & drystone walling).  Regardless of when I start work I always have a break at 11.00.  My body knows exactly when that is and I get hungry so I have something to eat.

But my body has got quite used to not having something to eat when I go walking, canoeing, or into the winter hills/mountains.  

But then I'm probably quite fit, so being outside all the time doesn't really make much demand on my body.

That's pretty dependent on where you are and what you're doing. Short routes, general mountaineering, hillwalking that approach would work. A winter route on Beinn Eighe approached over the top could easily involve 12+hrs of pretty strenuous activity between places to fill up. I've had plenty of other times where water sources were buried in snow or frozen.

Precisely!

I can think of three fatal accidents amounting to 7 deaths where the victims died of exhaustion/hypothermia in bad weather.

All three of those accidents occurred to people climbing in or near the Northern Corries, the least remote of any of Scotland's winter crags.

Two of my friends who lived in Aviemore and climbed there several times a week in good conditions once had to crawl on their hands and knees to get back out when they were hit by a storm.

Bad weather was the problem, not the distance from the road.

I was simply relating my experience.  Snow is water - (sorry -I couldn't resist that)

It wasn't an instruction, that you, or any one else should not take food or water into the hills. 

As was I.  

And I'm not really disagreeing with you on the water thing, just pointing out that it only works in certain circumstances.