UKH

Am I expecting too much?

Just before Covid broke the world, I bought a pair of Hanwag B2 boots. First trip on a very snowy Cobbler in Scotland was a success but a few months later during the easing of restrictions, the instep on one of the boots failed, leaking terribly on only the second hike. Nevissport were absolutely wonderful, they took them back, tested them and confirmed the leak so a new pair of boots arrived in the post. This pair have lasted 10'ish trips and the toe area on both boots now leak equally  after a couple of hours hiking.

My wife buys a pair of Scarpa B1 boots with the Outdry lining, On the first rainy day out, both boots fail straight away, letting water in just hiking through wet grass. Rock + Run so far are not replying to her emails.

3 Years ago, a pair of Boreal B3 boots on the way down Scafell Pike after 3 days winter climbing suddenly pop a sole. The sole is literally hanging off one of the boots so a length of climbing tat tied around the boot and sole get me down to the car. The boots have done 2 winters.

I used to get a good 3 seasons until about 10 years ago. I'll ask my opening question again, Am I expecting too much?

Boot care. I wash the boots down after every hike with a soft brush and clean water out of the outside tap. We remove the insoles and put the boots in ambient heat to dry out over about 24 hours. Our boots are kept in a kit room away from sunlight.

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Haven’t used either brand but as far as the uppers are concerned my Sportiva Nepal Cubes are so far (since 2017 summer alpine) bombproof after I’d say moderate use each summer and Scottish winter.

I can’t say the same for the outsole - it wears quick and I’ve had them resoled twice in that period for wear at the heel and under the toe.

No issues with leaks or delaminating etc. though and I’ll happily get them resolved again at this rate rather than replacing. 

In reply to mcawle:

I think this is the part that hacks me right off. You say your Cubes get used for a bit of summer alpine use as well as Scot winters. I've no idea how many boots you use but I have 3 pairs, light summer, heavier B2 for cold wet/light winter and B3 for the winter climbing. It's not like I've just got one pair of boots I wear for casual, mountains and sleeping in.

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

The Scarpa outdrys failing straight away is very weird. I've used mine for weeks on end now and they are totally waterproof...best boots I've ever had and still look new.

I have had less luck with goretex, perhaps feeling leaks after a month of solid wear with another pair of scarpas.

Sounds like you've been pretty unlucky.

In reply to Max Hangs:

The reason my wife bought them was because it was this seamless sock tech they use with the outdry linings. I guess that only works as long as the linings don't have holes in them. I'd love to get a knife and take them apart and look at the construction but we're hoping to get something sorted, assuming Rock + Run get back to us.

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Waterproof footwear is a fallacy. Any membrane wears quickly with friction and when clogged up with sweat, dirty etc. It can slow down the ingress of water, but water will get in. 

I wear warm socks and accept my feet will be warm and wet.

In reply to girlymonkey:

I'd agree with that but around 10 years ago I stopped buying my regular pair of boots that always lasted around 3 years without any leaks whatsoever. I used to buy Meindl Burma's and used them for everything. The only reason I stopped buying them was because they changed the last causing my heel to blister. I wore through 3 pairs of them and they never owed me a penny. Freinds who wore other brands rarely complained of leaking boots.

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Just the Cubes for summer alpine and Scottish winter.

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

You don't say what the boots are made of.  Apart from a few years when we all used plastics for winter climbing, I've only had leather boots.

I'm currently using a pair of blue leather Scarpa Mantas, bought in 2006.  When they're suitably waxed, they don't leak.  Before that, I had a pair of Zamberlan boots, with leather outer and leather lining. Bought in 1985. Eventually they fell apart, but they never leaked catastrophically in the way you describe. 

Cheers

Al 

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

I don't think the Burmas had a membrane, did they? Were they not a full leather boot which relied on waxing to stay waterproof? 

In reply to girlymonkey:

Yes, quite right, a bit like the Scarpa SL's. I did buy a pair of Borneo's after with the Goretex and did notice they were sweaty compared to the previous leather only version. Both boots were wonderful.

In reply to alibrightman:

Interesting that the boots I mention in my first post are ALL synthetic uppers with a GTX membrane. Perhaps this explains something.

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

I've had much more success with outdry foot wear than with gore Tex footwear.

Anything with a fabric upper and goretex usually fails within a few months for me. I've had both boots and trainers with outdry that have both lasted in excess of a year before leaking but I'd say that girlymonkey is spot on...waterproof footwear is a bit of a myth. Especially modern lightweight stuff...it's comfy and light but it doesn't stay waterproof long.

Definitely proofed leather if you want something more durable...it's just not as fashionable! 

In reply to thread:

Think we might have the Meindls the wrong way round here - it's the Borneos that are the non-gtx version, surely?

(Now on my third pair. Soles seem to wear out quite quickly, but not sure how much of that is down to changed usage patterns over the last couple of years?)

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

"> 3 Years ago, a pair of Boreal B3 boots on the way down Scafell Pike after 3 days winter climbing suddenly pop a sole. The sole is literally hanging off one of the boots so a length of climbing tat tied around the boot and sole get me down to the car. The boots have done 2 winters."

I can't comment on your other problems but soles popping off is usually caused by hydrolysis in the midsole. This can happen when boots are inactive for a long time and when they are quite old (often comes up with winter climbing boots because they only get used in winter...) and then get used intensively again.

 Less-then-perfect storing conditions exacerbate this problem. Best way to prevent/postpone it is to use the boots regularly, even if it is just during vacuuming the house for example. 

"> Boot care. I wash the boots down after every hike with a soft brush and clean water out of the outside tap. We remove the insoles and put the boots in ambient heat to dry out over about 24 hours. Our boots are kept in a kit room away from sunlight."

I'd suggest adding a leather care routine as well if they are leather boots. 

In reply to VictorM and doggy

I've had similar with five ten approach shoes, i.e. The soles literally fell off

I'd bought X3 pairs of approach shoes from a well known climbing shop as they were on such a good deal 🙈 more fool me!

I used X1 pair for a couple of years fine, the others stored in a cool dark ventilated spot. Then I didn't use the first pair for a couple of years. This summer I wore them scrambling in North Wales and the sole on both shoes fell off, I walked back down with them flapping like a duck

Checked the other X2 pairs of brand new of old shoes and both showing starting signs of degradation

Definitely hydrolysis though I rather suspect when these were sold they were end of line shoes that had been in storage in a warehouse for ages and probably coming to the end of their shelf life

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

I agree with you, I've had problems with the heel detaching from a pair of Merrill boots which I had only bought a few months prior on a walking trip on La Gomera, leaking so called "waterproof" Merrills which were only a few months old, on more than one occasion, leaking so called "waterproof" Brasher Boots. And now problems of leaking so called "waterproof" Meindl Bhutans - several over the last few years, and one of my current Bhutans - only 3 years old with the soles starting to disintegrate. All of these despite manufacturer's recommendations to keep the leather clean and regularly bees waxed.

I remember having leather boots from the 1960s onwards which lasted for many years without leaking, and they didn't have GTX linings. All they needed was regular cleaning and waxing, and to avoid fast drying them eg in front of a fire or radiator. Yes, the soles used to wear out but I got them resoled several times during their lives, which was generally about 10 years.

They were heavier than modern boots, but this was because they were made of thicker tougher leather, and the soles were proper vibram rubber, not the modern synthetic stuff. They did take a bit of breaking in, but the hassle of this was worth it for the longevity.

Modern boots are nothing like as tough or hard wearing. I suspect that manufacturers have been struggling to keep prices down by using cheaper materials and leather quality? But if this is the trend I would rather pay more for quality boots which will give you 10 years or so working life than have to replace  cheaper quality boots every year or two, sometimes even quicker!

But I've yet to find them these days, so I'm afraid we have to sacrifice instant comfort for cheaper products which are making unsustainable claims, particularly regarding water resistance.

In reply to VictorM:

Thanks for this, never thought of hydrolysis in the context of footwear.

For those interested in this deterioration there is a little article on effect of hydrolysis on leather boots and advice on boot care.

https://www.lowamilitaryboots.com/the-sole-destroying-effects-of-hydrolysis...

In reply to VictorM:

Why/how? I'm not doubting you - just wondering how occasional use would stop hydrolysis? I don't think I've ever had it happen to a pair of my walking or mountaineering boots, but exactly that happened to a pair of my son's Nike trainers just last year. Oddly, they were stored in the same place as all my 'outdoor' boots.

I have had plastic boots break up in the past, my Scarpa Grinta did it in the late 90s - just with age, at the time it was relatively rare thing but seems to have become the norm since plastic have been phased out through the early noughties. And I very sadly need to throw away my 20 year Scarpa Terminator 2 telemark boots after the sole under the duckbill broke off last winter and the pebax holding the tongue in place also broke. They've done pretty good service over that time! But still sad due to both sentimental reasons and otherwise they still work perfectly well.

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Was having this conversation with my wife a couple of days ago. I have a pair of Scarpa Manta that are around 16-17 years old and still going strong. I also have a pair of Merrel Gortex boots (not sure of the model) that are 20 years old. The Merrels are starting to fall to bits now as they've been my staple dog walking boots for a good few years now and they're currently my Gorge Scrambling boots. I also have a pair of La Sportiva Nepal that are 13 years old (although they haven't seen anywhere as much action as the Scarpa Manta in all fairness).

Any boots and approach shoes I've bought in the last 5 years have either leaked quite quickly, soles worn down really quickly, the soles have actually become detached in places or the rand has started to come away result in leaks. The worst were a pair of Solomon Gortex GTX Boots that leaked immediately on wet grass on the hills and when I wore them last in the Brecon Beacons the sole/rand came completely away on one boot with water sloshing around inside.

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

I think leather without a membrane is more reliable less so for winter though. I used to have nepals and whilst they never leaked once they were broken in fully they easily damped out and were troublesome to dry over multi days trips.

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

I’ve never had any success with goretex linings, normally  fail within a dozen or so Scottish heather and bog trotting trips if faced with fabric, a bit more if with leather.

my brand new Hanwag B3 boots started loosing the soles within the first week, though Hanwag did rectify without quibble.

Modern soles are also less durable generally being thinner and with shallower lugs, which annoys me, the cost of a few extra mm of sole is peanuts.

In reply to mcawle:

Wher did you get them re-soled, if I may ask?  My Sportiva's are in much the same way - upper fine, outer and midsole looking very the worse for wear.

In reply to girlymonkey:

I was about to reply with similar. I wear sealskin socks with mine. No wet feet!

Also, I remember going to the local outdoor shop with a friend, when we were baby outdoorsy-types, to get our first pairs of boots. My friend asked 'Are these boots 100% waterproof' to which the assistant replied 'No, there's a big hole in the top'

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

So what I'm getting here is that modern boots are rubbish. It seems that lightness and cheaper materials have degraded the product. Above we read that even the Meindl leather boots are not what they used to be.

If I'm paying around £200 for a pair of boots that last 10 trips before failing then I'm paying £10 per trip just on boots. Would I rent a pair of boots for a long hike at £10 per day? Not a chance!

Is there anyone reading this going out regularly in a pair of synthetic boots that have lasted more than 2 years, still watertight?

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

for lightweight boots my best experience has definitely been AKU.  I used to like Hitec for cheap fast boots but the sole block wasn't robust enough.  AKU Pilgrim seems unbelievably stable laterally even on steep rough ground for such a light boot and gives great support even when quite loaded up

The final test will be if they are OK for serious scrambling

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

I only wear boots when I need crampons. General hill wear for me is trail shoes which drain quickly and then I choose socks appropriate for the warmth required. More comfortable, I pick them up second hand for 30 quid and I wear them whether I am running or walking. I don't even bother when small holes appear in the uppers, it's just more drainage! 😜 I wear them until they get relegated to dog walking and gardening. 

In reply to TobyA:

Exactly my thoughts. Surely boots are going to actually get damp with every outdoor use and then get dryer indoors, so its hard to imagine that say 3 outings a year can mean more hydrolysis (breakdown due to reaction with water) than with 30 outings under the same storage conditions? Again not doubting the validity of the "deterioration if unused" observations. Possibly trapped water reacting faster at indoor temperature?

In reply to oldie:

I certainly can't give you any of the science in it, but it's not unusual for clients to lose the soles from their boots when they come over for a walking holiday here, but I have never had it happen to any of my footwear. Mine almost certainly is never unused as long as my clients boots. I just assumed French people bought rubbish boots, but maybe it's not just that! Lol

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

The pair of Meindl GTX boots I bought 4 years ago got replaced in a hurry after 2 years when the soles were going and I had an LDW to do. The new pair, exactly the same model, lasted a year and half before the uppers holed at four symmetrical points on the insteps, though the soles were still ok.

I dug the 4-year-old pair out and did a bit of sole repair with some aquasure, and am now happily using them. They're still watertight as long as I proof them occasionally. The 2-year-old pair have gone in the bin.

In reply to oldie:

Maybe 'prevent' is putting it strongly. Maybe I should have said 'prevents the issue comes up at the most inopportune time'.

FWIW though, I work in outdoor retail and almost every time we have customers handing in boots for resoling due to hydrolysis I hear the customers say they 'only use the boots once a year, how is this possible'. I know this is reasoning from anecdotal evidence but together with what we know about hydrolysis I think that in most cases inactivity is at least partially to blame for the sole breaking off. 

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

For me, Goretex lined boots always fail in under a year of fairly hard use, and I've tried a few. My foot size is 48 broad width, which I guess doesn't help in overflexing the thin membrane.

You can't beat good quality, unlined leather in my opinion. My Hanwag Tatras are outstandingly comfortable with no leakage so far, after 18 months of wear. The older blue leather Scarpa Mantas and SLs cover winter walking very well, and are built to last. Walking in wet snow, my feet get damp (not wet), and usually stay warm as long as I don't stay still for too long.

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

I've found with my fabric boots that walking through wet long grass or wet heather for a while my feet get wet but they're still fairly waterproof because stepping in shallow water briefly (crossing rivers etc) they stay dry (Gtx lined Scarpa's)

Thinking it's because waterproof lining or not if the outer fabric is saturated the lining can't breathe so the sweat builds up inside?

Don't get this problem on waxed leather as the water slides off and doesn't saturate the leather.

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

I am pretty sure the whole problem is driven by the industry perceiving that all footwear now needs to have the "oh, these feel like I've been wearing them for years" effect from brand new out of the box

Maybe it is a reflection of the average user of a pair of walking boots changing somewhat over the last 20 years

Back in 2000 when i first started working in an out door shop fitting boots the Scarpa SL was the premium  4 season walking boot we sold ,together with similar models from zamberlan which never fitted me

One piece leather upper with the only stitching being on the panel at the heel and high up round the cuff,so NONE in and around the toe and tongue area

These were basically heavy as hell,very very stiff and essentially rather uncomfy for weeks/months until they were broken in ( yes i bought a pair) However this really did mean they were very very durable. I think they lasted 7/8 years if memory serves me correctly and the upper was still waterproof when waxed properly as due to them not flexing much the leather stayed in really good nick

Fast forward to today and the new SL is a totally different beast. Very comfy out of the box, no where near as stiff, the upper leather feels about half the thickness and they are not much heavier than a normal walking boot

All of this "improvement" must come at the cost of durability as there are no other apparent downsides to the new model

This formula has been applied to many/all the other boots out there in the marketplace 

Anything with a fabric or mix of fabric and leather is essentially a "disposable" product, will never stay waterproof and is almost made to fall apart at a similar rate right across all its construction, so the uppers will tend to fail at a similar rate to the soles etc. There is almost no point in taking care of these products if you wear them every day though clean proofed footwear is much nicer to wear

In reply to misterb:

Always thought of my SLs as 3 season boots (used to live in the Scottish Highlands, now live in the French Alps) but compared to my winter boots they were light & not so stiff - guess its all relative.

In reply to Doug:

Fair one, i don't winter climb so never used crampons with them etc but they are(were) my winter walking boots

3 season is probably right

In reply to misterb:

Interesting to read that and the thread in general.  Through the dryer months I wear cheap leather walking shoes. If it's wet then I expect wet feet.  I have only ever bought one pair a fabric boots and yes they fell apart.  So I'm still buying and wearing leather boots and still waxing them after every trip out.  Not even sure what boots I have right now Scapa GTX somethings.  I bought them 4 years ago, because they looked well made and fitted my size 13 wide plates of meat like a glove. I've walked and climbed at least 2000 miles in them, on all types of terrain, from winter peat bog to Alpine summit.  The soles are gradually wearing out but that is the only real sight of wear on them.  At the end of my walk on Bodmin moor yesterday I once again dangled them in the last stream before the car to wash the muck off and once again had bone dry feet when I took them off back at the car. 

In reply to girlymonkey:

That's all so true. Wet feet are not really an issue for me, as long as they are warm. Leather boots are pretty waterproof anyway and as you say Goretex is a waste of time as far as boots are concerned. Every boot has a huge great hole in the top anyway, so they will never be waterproof.

In reply to VictorM:

Thanks for your reply about hydrolysis.

Incidentally, since you work in outdoor retail, you may have ideas on the following.

  Wide_Mouth-Frog, and others on previous threads, mention that Sealskinz goretex socks do a great job of keeping feet dry. Since the 1970s I've sometimes used medium thickness plastic bags in non-waterproof boots over my socks. The socks get damp from sweat, but it stop cold leaking water from cooling my feet. I do wonder if there is any difference between the plastic bags and the goretex (apart from price!) as I can't see how goretex can breath with a layer of cold water over it.

In reply to oldie:

I regret I have too little hands-on experience with what you describe to be sure but the breathability of GTX and similar membranes does suffer when the face fabric used gets saturated, this is why we need to reproof our waterproof jackets regularly. 

Second, the use of moisture vapour barriers is not unusual in extreme winter mountaineering or arctic trekking and ski-touring situations. I would not opt to use it myself though save for those conditions. Good Gore-Tex lined leather boots such as the Hanwag Alaska GTX, Meindl Island Pro or for higher up La Sportiva Nepal Cubes are bulletproof enough for me most of the time. 

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Whoever posted that boot link about hydrolysis destroying your boots, I'm calling sales pitch bullshit. A bit of randing is going to stop your boots get wet and rotting?!

I've had leather boots for 40 odd years now, and all I've ever done is stuff them full of newspaper when they come home saturated , and take it out the next day. Then they live under the stairs. And they're completely fine.

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Leather boots for me, stuffed with newspaper to dry them out and sno sealed now & again. I don’t expect dry feet anyway, condensation/sweat ensure that, but a well protected leather boot is the best at maintaining comfort.

Fabric is ok for approach shoes & fell running shoes - I like my Innov8’s but have to adjust to the very wet microclimate and they’re definitely only for summer & autumn. Goretex membrane? Not worth the bother, a couple of k with a piece of grit in your boot will wreck it.

In reply to Maggot:

For good boots it doesn't destroy the boots per sé as most good brands make resole-able boots, but I have seen enough midsoles go bad to know it's definitely not a sales pitch. 

In reply to oldie:

That was my system as a callow youth, army boots and bin bags. I believe I had the driest feet in our well equipped group of more experienced folk until about half a mile from our bothy when they gave up and let the water in. 

In reply to Siward:

were they the old "Boots DMS" with the reversed "Y" tread pattern?  

In reply to wercat:

I THINK they were ones with this tread, iirc

https://www.surplusandlost.co.uk/product/british-army-surplus-combat-boots-...

In reply to wercat:

..and the cheesegrater insoles

In reply to Siward:

With age and experience you might have used "medium" weight bags   I found bags from eg climbing shops were very suitable and often asked for extras when I bought stuff. However wasn't the smartest climber around with crumpled poly bags protruding round my ankles. Actually the first I first heard about this was that some brit guides used this in the Alps with non-waterproof boots such as the red suede Messners with the full length plywood stiffening (really good boots though eventually the ply broke and the heel detached similar to cases mentioned in this thread).

In reply to Ridge:

I think I damaged my feet fellwalking/carrying camping in those things.   Not too far from workmen's boots!

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30101050

I graduated to some fairly stiff full leather Hawkins - they would have been at least B2 in modern money

In reply to wercat:

I used similar. I think mine may have  been called Pinnacles. They were essentially the same as a very popular walking model with the stiffening provided just by an extra layer of leather above the rubber vibram. Lasted for years.

In reply to oldie:

What an appropriate pun!

In reply to oldie:

I've been trying to find without success a picture of the ones I had - they looked a bit like the cairngorms in style but were a browner boot and possibly even a little stiffer in sole and uppers.  I seem to remember them having speckly yellowy laces.

very old school without any modern touches like rand, bought in 1982.

In reply to wercat:

Can't remember what the laces on mine were like. Incidentally I think modern boots are supplied with longer life laces, for many years they seemed to break quickly.

Or perhaps, appropriate to the subject of this thread, modern boots just disintegrate before the laces   

In reply to mcawle:

If you are having trouble with Rock and Run, go straight to Mountain boot company (the importer) they are excellent. I bought some scarpa Maestros from Rock and run and  after using them for 18 months about 70 pitches of trad I had one of the lace loops break. I emailed them, they sent me a free post label to ship them back for inspection and they repaired them FOC. I was Very impressed with the service and can’t recommend them enough! 

In reply to Kryank:

Thanks very much for the contact point on that as we're really at a loss as to what to do with these boots. I'll dig up an email and hopefully get something back. Really grateful for the help.

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Hi there. I work at Rock+Run as far as I can tell we have not received an email from yourself or your wife as we don't have any pending emails regarding Scarpa boots.

Please can you resend your email and we will take it from there. 

info@rockrun.co.uk

Many thanks, Mike.

In reply to MB:

Hi Mike, my wife sent some photos some weeks back of the boots with proof or purchase. I'm sure tech glitches and slips through the net do happen with the best of intentions on both sides. I'll get her so send the stuff back through unless I can log into her email and do it now. Thanks for picking up on the thread, we are regulars at R+R and it would be a shame to end it over a missed email.

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Can't remember if following has been mentioned in this thread.

A post (mountain project?) mentions that due to PU in modern boots being affected by hydrolysis they should be stored in fairly air tight conditions, possibly just a poly bag, with a dessicant. 

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Just as a quick follow up.

I wore my less than a year old B2 Hanwag Makra's on top on a Scot munro yesterday. They leaked, got totally wet, froze before we got to the summit and nearly gave me frostbite. Feeling in the front of my feet started to go just as we started dropping back down. I never really thought too much about this in the UK but a hard lesson was learned that my feet must keep dry in winter conditions. Fortunately I was OK. The boots will be going in the bin!

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Seems a shame to literally bin them as several posters recently seem to be satisfied with leaky boots and sealskinz/poly bags/neoprene socks etc. As they are probably over £150 new and probably in otherwise reasonable nick perhaps someone would pay postage or even £20 for them.

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

I've come to the conclusion that fabric boots are designed for Europe, not boggy and wet UK; my current boots are leather and the next pair will be too.

I took a pair back to Cotswold after 12 months; the manager more or less said what did I expect? I said, quite emphatically, did he really think I would have bought them if it had been explained to me that they wouldn't last a year... I got my money back.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Funny but I just had a mate round and he said exactly the same thing. Hanwag, Salewa, Lowa and the like are all alpine based companies marketing boots in the wet boggy UK. I'm thinking of switching back to leather.

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Before you bin them, your warranty is probably two years! If they're truly less than a year old I would blame it on faulty Gore-Tex rather than the boot wearing out prematurely. 

In reply to olddirtydoggy: I'm pretty happy with my Scarpa Rebel Ultra's which are a few years old , and pretty much as light as B3 come, but I don't go out in the rain too often (or at least in those).  They've held up pretty well for sole wear though

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

I'm expecting derision and downvotes but in the last couple of years I have come to appreciate the very cheapest wellies (cheapest ones are usually the lightest, not like heavy dunlops) for about £10 a pair and then add in some very thin foam insoles taken out from "dead" trainers.

They often come with Vibram/commando style sole pattern and even the aggressive zigzag style works well. I'm impressed with how well they work on wet rock and IMHO as good as fancier boots up to about grade 2 scramble (you see cavers free climbing in wellies just fine) all for £10 to £15 pounds. Scrub them out inside and out with hot water and flash every now and again if you want, insides will dry overnight on a warm radiator. Unless you need crampons or want to go beyond DIFF in damp conditions they are unbeatable.

Yes I am serious I go on days out and classic mountain scrambles in wellies, they are really good! (just don't get any with the wobbly sole to avoid mud clinging, they are useless on rock and not great on steep wet grass)

You can even get ones with actual Vibram made soles and neoprene insulated, but then you have to pay crazy expensive money like £80-120 or something.

When it's wet weather...   Try it!

In reply to VictorM:

Worst thing is I binned the old reciept after I got the first pair replaced, the damn things cost me £200.

In reply to wbo2:

I wonder if the newer models would hold up as well? My old Meindls used to give me 3 years but posts further up the thread are saying they are lucky to get more than a year out of a pair now. Somebody told me the heavier Manta's hold up quite well for a stiff B2. B2 is quite a broad boot type, these crappy Hanwags are a very light and bendy B2 but my wife has a pair of Salewa B2's that to me are more like a B3. Perhaps a less stiff sole will leak more easily.

In reply to CantClimbTom:

You serious? I got an old pair in the garage, I'm up in the lakes in a few days and might try it for fun.

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

I am serious, in a few weeks I hope to be walking over the Moelwyns... in a pair of wellies. I definitely find adding thin insoles to be essential, but whatever works for your feet/boot/sock combination

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

There is a problem with the B0-B3 rating system and that is that it fails to account for variations in sole stiffness. If you look at the system a lot of German shoe manufacturers use it goes from A (for lightweight walking shoes) to E (for high alpine expedition boots) and there are a lot of 'bridging' categories, such as A/B or B/C, C/D and D/C. Generally, B2 boots tend to go all over the place from B/C to D/C and as you can imagine a B/C is much floppier than a D/C, which is almost as stiff as a fully rigid ice climbing boot!

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Foot size also affects sole stiffness. Smaller boots are stiffer because of less leverage. 

In reply to CantClimbTom:

Ever tried kicking steps up nevee in wellies?

In reply to Trangia:

In those conditions, don't forget your garden trowels for step cutting.

In reply to Trangia:

Worrying about ascending snow?   Amateur!!

https://www.organiccatalogue.com/equipment/feeds-compost/lawn-care/lawn-spi...