Amazon now selling climbing gear?

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 Mark Stevenson 11 Mar 2021

I was rather intrigued to find that when looking at the latest version of some Petzl kit, the cheapest retailer was actually Amazon itself, as opposed to another seller advertising on Amazon Marketplace or any of the established online outdoor retailers.

I know that there has been extensive discussions about Amazon relentlessly expanding into supplying every and any popular product, but is this now a trend with top brand climbing gear? 

Anyone noticed any other examples?

Beginning of the end for dedicated outdoor online stores or likely just a minor exception? 

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 Neil Williams 11 Mar 2021
In reply to Mark Stevenson:

Fairly sure I bought a belay plate off Amazon (directly) a while ago.  Knowing how their warehouses and staff work, I doubt I'd buy any fabric kit, I wouldn't trust it hadn't been dragged through battery acid or a Chinese fake.

Would it be the end for Trekinn etc?  Don't care.

Would it be the end for Joe Brown etc selling online?  Doubt it, partly because people do have loyalty to those retailers, and they have bricks and mortar shops too.

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In reply to Mark Stevenson:

They probably sit there watching what folk buy from Amazon sellers and if it crosses a threshold where it is worth their while start to source it and sell it themselves.

In reply to Mark Stevenson:

I'm pretty sure they have been doing some stuff direct for quite a while. Bits and pieces.

 spenser 12 Mar 2021
In reply to Mark Stevenson:

I've been led to believe that the way Amazon stores things in its warehouses sold by itself and third party sellers means that you can buy something from Amazon and it's a toss up of whether or not it has come through their (hopefully legitimate) supply chain, or through the supply chain of one of the sellers for whom it fulfils orders.

I certainly wouldn't be willing to buy safety related equipment from Amazon given the potentially uncertain provenance. Some articles about this below:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/amazon-turning-a-blind-eye-to-fake-produ...

https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/blog/amazon-counterfeit-fake-products/

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/04/amazon-may-have-a-co... - This is probably the most relevant one.

 nufkin 12 Mar 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

>  start to source it and sell it themselves.

Might that give Petzl* a chance to favour smaller shops simply by not selling to Amazon in the first place, or is the reach of Amazon such that doing so would put Petzl's* market position at risk?

*or whoever

In reply to nufkin:

> Might that give Petzl* a chance to favour smaller shops simply by not selling to Amazon in the first place, or is the reach of Amazon such that doing so would put Petzl's* market position at risk?

I know from book sales that it is very difficult to 'not sell to Amazon'. Rockfax (or our distributors) don't supply Amazon instead it goes through another massive company. This company supplies a huge variety of places and without them it would near-impossible to get our books into far-flung corners of the country and the rest of the world. These companies are so big that you can't say to them, "please don't supply Amazon" even if you want to since they will just tell you where to go.

I am not sure if this is similar for climbing hardwear but, trade relationships are complex, as we are currently finding out the hard way, and I doubt that it is quite as simple as just 'not supplying' a certain outlet.

Alan

 Wil Treasure 12 Mar 2021
In reply to Mark Stevenson:

When I was a sales rep (nearly a decade ago now) Amazon was a perpetual thorn. Most of the self styled "quality" outdoor brands had a policy of not selling to Amazon and barring their retailers from selling on there or eBay. It was pretty hard to police and there was a constant undercurrent of potential legal action against brands who refused to sell to them. I've no idea if any of that came to fruition.

Some of the reasons for this are as Spenser says above: being able to know your gear is genuine and where exactly it's coming from. Another big reason is brand positioning for the higher end brands. It's very important to them to be seen in the true climbers' shops, it gives them legitimacy and status and they often give favourable terms or other benefits to these places, like free window displays, staff training, test gear and so on. It also gives them somewhere to display the more niche (and hence low turnover) products.

I think at the time I was repping we were in transition. Climbing is a much more mainstream activity now and many of those new customers will never step inside a specialist climbing store. Some of the brands have vastly outgrown the independent stores that were so important to them 30 years ago. Eg Black Diamond were a hardware specialist at that point, but these days make vastly more money from gloves and headlamps, and have shareholders to answer to.

There are 2 interesting asides to this. The first is that those retailers who started selling on these platforms are the cause of their own demise. They've gifted Amazon a load of sales data, while also paying to use the platform, and Amazon's buying power means they will get better terms and be able to undercut them.

The second is that we're seeing a growing trend for "counterfeit" gear, in two ways. The imitation of real brands is clearly a worry and hard for a consumer to check, unlike the official retailer lists brands used to produce. The other is that there are a surprising number of new brands emerging in Asia whose products aren't counterfeit, and may actually be quite good, but they aren't rated for sale in the EU (and presumably the UK). There's a grey area here that it's not actually illegal for them to sell these unrated items to you, it's more likely to be you breaking the law as the importer!

In reply to Mark Stevenson:

I'd echo what Will and Spenser have said. Climbing gear has been available on Amazon for years. We all like a bargain but personally I wouldn't buy anything safety critical from them, for several reasons:

  • I wouldn't be able to trust the provenance. Is it legit? Is it counterfeit? I doubt even Amazon could be sure in every case, and nor might they care that much.  
  • How has it been stored and handled in the warehouse? I'm less inclined to trust a non-specialist behemoth in this regard.
  • There's a plethora of budget equipment from random never-heard-of brands on the site. Some of this may be safe, some most definitely isn't, but neither will have the appropriate safety ratings (so you just can't tell if it'll kill you or not). Beginners looking to kit themselves out may not know the difference between bona fide BD carabiners and DodgyCo budget versions made from tat, and Amazon clearly don't care enough about that issue to do anything. For me, this undermines any confidence in them as a reliable source of decent gear.
  • If we don't support specialist retailers for something as basic and fundamental as climbing hardware then we are kind of inviting their demise. You cannot replace their knowhow with an algorithm. You can't beat handling the gear in a bricks and mortar shop (when it's allowed again).
  • Amazon have very questionable working conditions and tax affairs, and every pound spent with them helps cement their dominance. Where does it end? It's not that I don't use them for anything, far from it, but I always feel a bit soiled for doing so.

I know you're specifically talking about known brands, but this article on the perils of online budget gear is worth a read: https://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/features/online_budget_gear_-_the_pe...   

 GrantM 12 Mar 2021
In reply to Mark Stevenson:

I put together a set of cams last year and got a couple from Amazon, they were sold by Amazon itself (ie not a 3rd party) and there was no problem with quality. The Amazon locker was handy plus the price was low at the time - although this varies with their algorithm so they can also be the most expensive! A few well known climbing shops also sell through Amazon.

I don't have a local climbing shop, I've used topos & info on the Needlesports site so I've paid a few extra quid to get stuff from there before although I'll probably never visit the shop.

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 Frank R. 12 Mar 2021
In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

>Amazon have very questionable working conditions and tax affairs, and every pound spent with them helps cement their dominance. Where does it end? It's not that I don't use them for anything, far from it, but I always feel a bit soiled for doing so.

But surely helping two of the richest self-obsessed oligarchs in the world achieve their dreams of space travel is worth it, right? Right? It's not like Bezos and Musk even look like evil madmen from cliche movies, do they? Not like they are fighting kicking and screaming against any forming of labour unions or actively defy state Covid rules, right?  Oops...

You wrote it well, whenever I give in and buy something there, I feel tainted.

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 Iamgregp 12 Mar 2021
In reply to Mark Stevenson:

If you value being able to walk into a shop, look at gear and get assistance from the staff there please support your local climbing shop.

That means you're sometimes going to have to pay a little more than you would if you bought them from an online retailer who doesn't have to pay for retail premises, knowledgeable staff etc.

If you don't care and just want the cheapest price then go ahead an buy online, but you can wave goodbye to climbing shops.

I've seen this happen with record shops (cheers Discogs!), skate shops a and in those industries there is a big "support your local shop" message to try and keep the surviving ones.  I'm just not seeing that in the climbing and outdoors world. 

Are we going to have to wait till there only one or two shops left before we wake up, or does our need to get the best possible price trump our desire to keep our local shops going?

 rsc 12 Mar 2021
In reply to Mark Stevenson:

I know it’s not the question the OP is asking, but as others said, be very wary of who you’re actually buying from on Amazon. A cautionary tale: Mrs rsc runs a small consultancy from home. A Shanghai-based company selling through Amazon stole her company identity- web address almost identical, postal address for returns our home address. They thus appeared to be a small UK-based company. We only found out from the steady stream of parcels we hadn’t ordered, all cheap tat being “returned” by duped customers. Amazon could not have been less helpful- it took Mrs rsc hours of phone calls over months to work out what going on, and they made no attempt to stop it.

So even if it looks like you’re buying from a reputable retailer, you might be.  Shop local.

Post edited at 16:31
 Frank R. 12 Mar 2021
In reply to rsc:

>A Shanghai-based company selling through Amazon stole her company identity [...] Amazon could not have been less helpful.

Ouch! Not the first time I have heard about fake sellers, though. Amazon is just Evil® and They Don't Care®...

In reply to all:

Haven't got the slightest idea why posting something that generates a reasonable number of interesting replies and discussion ends up getting lots of thumbs down...  

I didn't specify whether I actually bought anything but I did think from the wording that it was obvious that I didn't.

Don't shot the messenger...

I'm genuinely curious, perhaps even concerned, about how online sales of climbing gear are going to develop. Up until now, I'd seen plenty of stuff from unknown brands or ridiculously overpriced stuff from random marketplace sellers, but if Amazon itself is starting to stock well-known brands I think it's a major shift.

I climb regularly enough all across the country that I can and do, visit retailers in person but even given that, I'm definitely buying much more stuff online than I did a decade ago. It's normally still from an obvious selection of 7 or 8 retailers, but occasionally it is with other outdoor retailers that I have been aware of but have no, or minimal connection with.

New climbers are now increasingly likely to buy equipment well before they actually visit the classic climbing areas (N Wales, Peak, Lakes) and the established specialist climbing retailers based there. As such I'm not sure how the existing retailers will be able to maintain brand awareness, especially with individuals who have spent years trusting Amazon to supply them with hundreds of other commodities.

FWIW I rarely buy from Amazon for all the obvious reasons, although there are occasional exceptions like ridiculously cheap warehouse damaged books sold by "Amazon Warehouse" where the savings too large to ignore. However, I'm on the website regularly as checking an Amazon listing is a great shortcut to finding out which companies have items, normally books, in stock without relying on Google or visiting a long list of individual websites. In almost all cases, I then visit a company's own website and buy even cheaper by avoiding the Amazon commission.

As mentioned, didn't buy from Amazon this time and doubt I will be buying climbing hardware from them in the short or medium-term. Longer-term, if they become well-established in the market, I don't honestly know how much of a premium I'd be willing to pay to avoid them and buy elsewhere...

Post edited at 00:25
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 Jasonic 13 Mar 2021
In reply to Mark Stevenson:

I Introduced a friend & her son to the climbing wall- they enjoyed it & the next time she had bought a him a harness from amazon- clearly this was a not fit for purpose copy- the wall was great & lent him hire kit for free for the session-

I was shocked as I hadn't realised that it was even possible to buy non accredited climbing gear-

Perhaps there needs to be some kind of verification process for online sales ?

This might be something for the BMC to do..

People getting into climbing now quite possibly not know the difference...

 danm 13 Mar 2021
In reply to Jasonic:

As the BMC, we have tried - I even appeared on an episode of Fake Britain warning about the dangers of non-certified climbing equipment! The big issue, as you say, is for new entrants to the sport who don't know what to look out for. Complaining to Amazon/eBay didn't get anywhere, and unfortunately Trading Standards are still operating in the 20th Century - their answer is to buy stock and then test it at vast expense before condemning it, when a simple paper trail check of conformity would do. Given that the majority of issues are likely to occur with new climbers going indoors, I've decided that the best approach is to look at educating wall staff about what to look out for, perhaps get some posters to warn newbies up as well. It's something to perhaps add on to the floorwalker training happening this month in concert with the ABC and other NGBs.

 jimtitt 13 Mar 2021
In reply to danm:

Maybe think about revisiting the issue with some legal advice because things have changed. Previously the point of sale was basically where the goods where and the responsibility for ensuring they conformed lay with the importer (the customer). Now the point of sale for tax purposes is the electronic marketplace, that is Amazon UK or whatever website you click on to purchase. Which means they have become the importer as they are selling the product inside the EU/GB and are responsible for it conforming.

My tame lawyer says this has yet to get a definitive judgement (in Europe) but on the face of it the above interpretation is correct as there has been no judgement against the EU decision to move the point of sale.

Following the certification trail is pointless since it has no relevance if the product is sold outside the EU (and GB).

Incidentally products which don't require CE marking (which is no longer valid 1st Jan 2022 and becomes UKCA and will be the next disaster) such as bolts which only need EN Conformity certificates don't seem to appear in the legislation, Brexit keeps giving!

Post edited at 16:32
 oldie 13 Mar 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

> If you value being able to walk into a shop, look at gear and get assistance from the staff there please support your local climbing shop...... Are we going to have to wait till there only one or two shops left before we wake up, or does our need to get the best possible price trump our desire to keep our local shops going? <

Agree about examining gear, getting advice (though staff are not always knowledgeable), and supporting local shops. Also like the certainty and ease of returning/changing equipment if necessary. The trouble is, especially if one doesn't much visit the bigger climbing centres, like Snowdonia or the Peak, there is often a limited range of gear in the shops eg London area. Also one might not want to waste good weather conditions when in the areas with the big climbing shops. So one sometimes has to shop online.  Of course doing so potentially fuels shop closure. Obviously the same for shops in general.

Post edited at 17:08

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