Am I a softie?

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 johnlc 09 Nov 2020

In recent years, I have purchased two new sleeping bags.  Both are down bags and whilst I very pleased with them, I am not finding them anything like as warm as the advertised comfort temperatures would suggest.  I don't want to in any way name and shame the brands as like I said, I am very pleased with my purchases and I think that both bags were very good value but whilst the brands were not in the premier leauge (PHD / Mountain Equipment etc), they were certainly championship or league 1 jobbies.  You would recognise the names.

One has 400g of 750 fp down in a stitch-through construction but I am finding that it gets chilly in much other than summer / in a tent / wearing light clothing conditions.

The other has 800g of 750 fp down in a box wall construction.  I have just returned from a couple of nights in the Cairngorms and the temperature was probably only a few degrees above zero.  Once again, I was in a tent in a hat, thin fleece, long johns and socks and was borderline chilly.

With both bags, the sleep limits that they suggest are way off what I have found.

Generally speaking I am someone who does feel the cold.  I am tall and thin and approaching 50 so the engine is probably not working quite as efficiently as it once did.

So do I just need to resign myself that those sleep limits do not apply to me and I will have to cart around a much heavier sleeping bag, or am I about to learn the adage of 'buy cheap, pay twice' as I have wasted my money on inferior bags?

 Andypeak 09 Nov 2020
In reply to johnlc:

Most bags use the same standardised system of measuring warmth, however people are all different. I tend to find I need a slightly warmer bag than advertised. I don't think spending more money on a similarly rated bag would fix the problem, you just are just a cold sleeper. 

 Mal Grey 09 Nov 2020
In reply to johnlc:

What mat are you sleeping on? That can make a big difference.

Also, making sure you go to bed warm, which might mean a little modest exercise and a snack before retiring.

800g of decent down should take you below freezing pretty comfortably. 

 Babika 09 Nov 2020
In reply to johnlc:

You're not a softie - being warm at night is essential! 

I sleep in 800g without hat, gloves, socks, thermals etc even when its zero degrees. I think clothes can actually be ineffective in keeping warm.

My top tips are:

Better insulation underneath - a £3 karrimat as well as your expensive mat when it's that cold

Pull the bag tight around your head, shoulders and put your head inside to start with if necessary to warm up the air

Fill a nalgene with hot water and take it to bed with you. 

You'll fall asleep in no time!

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 Dave Todd 09 Nov 2020
In reply to johnlc:

As mentioned above, consider the mat that you're using.  Some of the newer Thermarest mats are big beasts!  Also, I presume that you're using a liner?  I've used a silk liner for many years and it seems to add a few degrees of comfort.

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 SFM 09 Nov 2020
In reply to johnlc:

I’d say you are more likely a “cold sleeper” meaning you feel the cold in your sleep. I’m like this and it tormented me for years until I worked it out. 
As others have said, ground insulation, hot/fatty food and being warm before bed all make a massive difference. I have a lightweight quilt that I sometimes throw over the top of my bag or use a down jacket for the same. 
The other thing I find works is a bag in a bag. I have a warm summer bag that I put inside an ultralight synthetic bag and it ends up being warmer than you expect, especially if there is a fair amount of condensation from In the tent. In fact could that have been the issue in that the down was slightly damp?

 TobyA 09 Nov 2020
In reply to johnlc:

Do you think that the ratings for the two bags are out by about the same amount? If so you're probably just finding how you fit against the rating system. In bags I've reviewed over the last decade I've found that the comfort limit rating is quite good for me. Whether that's +1 or -10, if that's the rating, that's what will work for me - bags from Marmot, ME, SeatoSummit, Lightwave, Crux and Thermarest. So they all seem to work at the stated temp. Maybe your personal physiology just means you'll find that in decent bags the upper comfort level (or whatever they call it now) is closer to what you'll be comfortable at?

 planetmarshall 09 Nov 2020
In reply to johnlc:

> ...they were certainly championship or league 1 jobbies.  

That's impressive. Even after a strong vindaloo I've never produced anything I'd class as more than Vauxhall Conference.

 Bobling 09 Nov 2020
In reply to johnlc:

+1 for silk liner.  Mine is a lovely scrummy small light thing of warmth.

I once had this explanation of how a sleeping bag keeps you warm: "It reflects the faahkin heat back at you doesn't it?  So if you get in and keep all your clothes on you stay cold, get in and strip down and you'll be toasty warm".

I'm not sure how much truth there is in that but I have noticed the bag seems to warm up quicker if I do strip down.  I'm not quite sure what the gentlemen who was shouting this at us expected us to do when we stood to in the middle of the night and all emerged from our pits in our grundies rather than as fully formed soldiers, IIRC I never even took my boots off...just one of the life's little mysteries.

 Toerag 10 Nov 2020
In reply to Babika:

> Better insulation underneath - a £3 karrimat as well as your expensive mat when it's that cold

That is my expensive mat!

In reply to Bobling:

> +1 for silk liner.  Mine is a lovely scrummy small light thing of warmth.

> I once had this explanation of how a sleeping bag keeps you warm: "It reflects the faahkin heat back at you doesn't it?  So if you get in and keep all your clothes on you stay cold, get in and strip down and you'll be toasty warm".

> I'm not sure how much truth there is in that but I have noticed the bag seems to warm up quicker if I do strip down.  I'm not quite sure what the gentlemen who was shouting this at us expected us to do when we stood to in the middle of the night and all emerged from our pits in our grundies rather than as fully formed soldiers, IIRC I never even took my boots off...just one of the life's little mysteries.

As far as I am concerned, there is total truth in that. I was sent to boarding schools from the age of ten that had dormitories that were brutally cold in the winter. We were meant to wear pyjamas, but I made the surprising discovery very early on that I was much less cold without the pyjamas than with them. I have never slept in pyjamas or clothes since, anywhere in the world, whether in a bed or sleeping bag. I think the science behind this is that it is one's body alone (or one's partner's) that warms up the bed or sleeping bag, and wearing clothes or pyjamas inhibits this warming up.

The only exceptions I have made to sleeping in the nude have been when bivouacking on mountains in cold conditions, without any down gear. Then I put on every piece of clothing I can muster, including spare socks, etc. And I always wear a skiing hat when I am camping in the cold, because I can't stand my head getting cold.

For those who are sceptical, I say: try it!

Removed User 10 Nov 2020
In reply to johnlc:

All a sleeping bag does is slow down the leaking away of heat from your body. If you're feeling cold you are not producing heat greater than your bags ability to retain it.

Eat more is the easy bit. More kcals, ideally of slow burn stuff rather than sugar, will metabolize into body heat. This changes with age and other bodily changes.

Sleeping bags work best the more stable an environment they are in, ie still and dry. If you've minimized heat loss into the cold ground with a mat (by far the biggest source of heat loss), then reducing air movement around the bag with a tent or bivy bag, and maximally lofting/drying the bags insulation with body heat optimizes those factors.

Get these things right and you can sleep in surprisingly adverse conditions, open bivys on ledges etc. I like to get into my bag asap, clothed, eat, and as my body warms open zips or remove clothing so body heat gets into the bag itself. In a tent, I have a few blasts of the stove (I know about the risks of using a stove in a tent) to rise the temperature inside, which draws the condensation point inside the bags insulation out beyond it.

Before you go looking at expensive new bags, have a look at a cheap summer weight synthetic sized to go over the bags you already have. For minimal cost and weight you will get a lot more function than yet another big bag.

And get a good piss bottle. Keeping a liter of liquid warm when you don't have to is inefficient and no point harnessing all that body heat only to get out for a piss and lose it all.

 John Kelly 10 Nov 2020
In reply to johnlc:

Mat - you can easily and cheaply test this theory - can make a massive difference

 Jonny 10 Nov 2020
In reply to Removed Userwaitout:

> ... to rise the temperature inside, which draws the condensation point inside the bags insulation out beyond it.

This is a massive deal, in my experience, and explains much of whether sleeping with clothes on is warmer or not. Fewer clothes means more heat loss, but if this means moving the dew point to outside of the sleeping bag, the insulation stays dry and the net effect is a warmer sleep. If it's really cold and the dew point will be inside the bag anyway, (dry) clothes are invariably the right choice.

Other tips for the OP, most of which have been covered: 

  • Make sure the mat is proportional to the bag. The colder the ground, the higher the R value you'll need for the same amount of heat to be lost to the air and ground (you may be surprised about the ratio here).
  • Eat well before going to sleep (bias your eating towards the evening, which I think is good practice when sleeping out while walking or mountaineering anyway)
  • Don't get cold before you get into the bag. Just a small amount of excess heat is enough to keep the positive feedback cycle going (which is why going to bed with a warm object is so effective).
  • Always have your nose and mouth out of the bag. Because of the accumulation of moisture, it never pays off to breathe inside, even if it feels warm initially.
  • Cover your head well.
  • Spoon (life's too short to give a shit, or you may be so inclined anyway). If you're freezing your tits off in a blizzard on some wretched ledge or windblown col in an 18-degree Decathlon bag, it'll probably just happen anyway.
  • Zip two bags together and sleep alongside your partner—it beggars belief how effective this is (in terms of keeping warm at least!).

Oh, and if it's well below zero and there's enough snow, igloos and snow caves are incredible (quiet, and the temp. stays close to zero).

 C Witter 10 Nov 2020
In reply to johnlc:

RE: Am I a softie?

Other people have given some sound advice about thermarests, etc., but they haven't addressed the most salient issue: are you from south or north of Birmingham?

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 oldie 10 Nov 2020
In reply to Removed Userwaitout:

> Before you go looking at expensive new bags, have a look at a cheap summer weight synthetic sized to go over the bags you already have. For minimal cost and weight you will get a lot more function than yet another big bag. <

I don't think this always works. For example a good down bag or duvet can actually be compressed by the weight of an extra layer above it.

 Jonny 10 Nov 2020
In reply to oldie:

That's certainly possible, although another benefit of the modular system is that almost all of the moisture from successive nights accumulates in the synthetic bag, where it doesn't matter so much, while still gaining the weight and compressibility benefits of the down bag (per warmth). It definitely pays for trips of more than a night or two.

OP johnlc 10 Nov 2020
In reply to johnlc:

Thank you everyone for your advice and comments.

Mostly I am relieved that no-one has told me that I have wasted my money and that I need to ebay what I have purchased so far and put my hand deeper into my pocket.  In response to your kind and helpful responses:

Yes, I am careful to fill up with warm food before bed.

I think you are absolutely right about ground insulation.  I did not want to cart a thermarest around so I got an inflatable mattress.  Whilst it was light and small, it was also a poor insulator.

I will experiment with wearing less in bed, although it does seem a little counter-intuitive.

I hope to leave the practice of using a pee bottle as an absolute last resort.  Knowing my luck I would end up with a very wet sleeping bag.

And lastly, I was born and grew up in Oxfordshire but have been lucky enough to live in Sheffield since I was 18.  I definitely regard Yorkshire as home, but locals are still keen to point out that I am definitely not a Yorkshireman!  My children were both born up here though so I have no doubt as to who the greatest living Yorkshireman and Yorkshirewoman are.

 C Witter 10 Nov 2020
In reply to johnlc:

> And lastly, I was born and grew up in Oxfordshire but have been lucky enough to live in Sheffield since I was 18.  I definitely regard Yorkshire as home, but locals are still keen to point out that I am definitely not a Yorkshireman!  My children were both born up here though so I have no doubt as to who the greatest living Yorkshireman and Yorkshirewoman are.

Yorkshire? Definitely not soft then. The down must be faulty - bad goose or summit!

1
 Sean Kelly 10 Nov 2020
In reply to johnlc:

If staying in a hut or similar, a hot shower before turning in is really effective. Duvet jacket with hood inside the bag also keep the body core warm. And as someone else has noted, in Scotland a snow hole is far superior to a wind blown tent. Finally bootees for the feet.

 nniff 10 Nov 2020
In reply to johnlc:

Another vote for a silk liner.  Additionally, pull fleeces duvets etc inside with you to use as a blanket.  Personally, I sort of agree with stripping down - but only as far as a base layer - wearing too much makes you clammy then cold.

My brutally cold school dormitories led me to PJs and a dressing gown as a blanket.  My time going to sleep with a gun led to a lightly dressed with a jacket as a blanket approach, unless soaking wet, in which case the answer was to wear everything and dry it out overnight (only with a synthetic bag mind you)

Removed User 10 Nov 2020
In reply to oldie:

> I don't think this always works. For example a good down bag or duvet can actually be compressed by the weight of an extra layer above it.

If not sized correctly so, yes. Think of it as an insulated bivy bag. Single season synthetic bags weigh about 500g give or take depending on quality, and either sized right for the job or laid over like a quilt don't weigh on the inner bag enough to compress it. Also two bags used together trap more stable air than two bags separately, 1 + 1 = 2-and a bit.

As Jonny points out, it can also push the condensation point out into the synthetic layer where moisture has less affect on the insulation. Frost from the tent either melting or dropping onto the bag also is spared from the down on inside.

 mountainbagger 10 Nov 2020
In reply to johnlc:

> I have just returned from a couple of nights in the Cairngorms and the temperature was probably only a few degrees above zero.  Once again, I was in a tent in a hat, thin fleece, long johns and socks and was borderline chilly.

I would try getting into the sleeping bag.

That might be where you're going wrong.

In reply to johnlc:

A decent bag and knowing how to use it is essential (that means properly adjusting the neck gaiter, hood etc). A decent insulated air mat plus an optional foam mat is equally important. Being warm when you get in the bag is 90% of the work (movement and hot food). If you have a puffy jacket put it over your feet for a boost. Finally, boil some water, put it in a nalgene and you have a hot water bottle that will keep you warm all night. Having camped in temps colder than -30C I can vouch for the importance of each step. 

 Dave B 11 Nov 2020
In reply to johnlc:

The only thing I haven't seen already (apologies if someone has mentioned it) is have you sweated much in the day? If so, then a quick wash with hot water and a flannel to get rid of salt from the body can help keep you warmer. I notice a fair bit if I have or haven't got rid of any salt after swimming and after exercise as to how cold I feel. My working assumption is that salt is hydrophilic and keeps you slightly damp all the time... Of course this could be complete rubbish, so corrections welcome.

 MischaHY 11 Nov 2020
In reply to johnlc:

If you've got one of these summer air mattresses with no insulation, then yes - you'll be losing loads of heat through the mattress. Warm mats don't weigh that much any more - if you want to hit the nail on the head once and for all then just get something like the Mountain Equipment Aerostat Down - it's got an R value of 5 and weighs 730g with a reasonable pack size. They last for years  

 Graeme G 11 Nov 2020
In reply to Dave B:

> The only thing I haven't seen already (apologies if someone has mentioned it) is have you sweated much in the day? If so, then a quick wash with hot water and a flannel to get rid of salt from the body can help keep you warmer. I notice a fair bit if I have or haven't got rid of any salt after swimming and after exercise as to how cold I feel. My working assumption is that salt is hydrophilic and keeps you slightly damp all the time... Of course this could be complete rubbish, so corrections welcome.

Interesting theory. I find a quick wash helps me sleep better. But I’d always assumed that’s purely because I’m clean and feel fresher.  

 olddirtydoggy 11 Nov 2020
In reply to johnlc:

Another option for the mix.

I lost my winter bag to my wife and decided to buy some down trousers/jacket from Cumulus and I use them inside a light autumn bag. Great advantage for me is I get to wear something really warm in camp and enjoy a very warm nights sleep. The overall pack weight is also lighter. We used this system in a tent, on cold snow under the headwall of some climbs in winter.

I also am a cold sleeper and use the Thermarest X-Therm all year round. I wear underwear inside the down suit.


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