UKH

Evening everyone.

Just after some advice please. I going to be ordering some DMM Alpha sports draws next week.

My question is that DMM also do some Steel Alphas https://dmmclimbing.com/Products/Quickdraws/Alpha-Steel-Quickdraw

Would you think it's a good idea to use this type of steel quickdraw (adding two steels to one dog bone) as a first bolt quickdraw, so that there isn't as much wear on the aluminium ones?

It seems like a perfect idea, but I can't seem to find anyone else talking about it and no other manufacturer doing them, apart from the new Edelrid bulletproof ones. https://rockandice.com/gear-reviews/quickdraws/first-look-edelrid-bulletpro...

The steel alphas just seem to be designed for gym use. I know they weigh a bit heavier but if you only had one or a couple of them for high use bolts, 1st or the old style bent bolts you wouldn't get much wear at all if they were made of steel.

What are your thoughts on it?

Thanks in advance, and play nice no sarky or rude comments please.

For general use, it's not worth it. There's no benefit in using steel for most people as  we just don't get that level of load or wear. You won't even notice the wear in a normal krab in normal use for many years. 

If you want to reduce wear on the first krab try using a revolver. 

Thank you Monk and Jenny for your advice.

as per Jenny I usually put a revolver on the first Q-D  often with a mini screwgate as I don't want to hit the floor due to random unclipping. 

You might consider a steel screwgate for a lowering/top roping krab. The first person puts it in with a q-d backup. It takes all the wear, the last person rethreads.  I just use a normal older HMS screwgate for this as they are cheap and light.  Also if you were doing some long abs with dirty ropes that may wear your  std krab

I do use a steel oval with my mamutt smart mainly cos I have one but it does create 2 parallel wear marks on alu. krabs.  

Hi Lithos, thank you for your reply. 

Would a revolver on the first bolt not increase slip and reduce friction making you fall closer to the floor?

Im still a little confused as well on the 'should you use a screw gate carabiner on the first bolt' due to possibility of the rope unclipping?

I've spent hours sifting through the web trying to find the answer on this. DMM nearly say 'consider using a screw gate on the first bolt'.

If you have a small screw gate on the end of your first quick draw (rope end) and you already have the rope though it, it would be just as easy to clip this to the first bolt, maybe easier as you are not then needing to clip the rope through, you wouldn't have the chance of it unclipping, nor would it wear the first QD as much.

So why are people not doing this for currently?

Alloy krabs are fine, you'll lose them faster than you wear them out over your climbing career. Screws on the rope end of safety critical clips aren't a bad idea, ropes do get unclipped either while climbing or in a fall, I've had it happen 3 times, probably around a 1:800 event I guess. A revolver on the bottom klip will prevent wear but it does expose the belayer to a fair bit more force, sloppy technique or big weight differentials become a problem. Useful bit of kit but one to use with care.

Jk

Hey Jk, thank you for your reply, most appreciated and now clears a few things up  

Hi ya

a little - but i always lower down and benefit from that friction reduction. I rarely fall off.  I don't belay with tiny people (just don't know that many) or would be careful and mention it if worried so pre-warned etc. Depends on the first bolt placement (moving across it...), close to rock (could the nose be againts the rock), the landing etc etc

people dont as maybe they don't worry about unclipping (maybe sensible its unlikely but the first bolt is your only bolt), maybe they don't bother having anything other than a set of q-ds, revolvers are expensive - all sorts of reasons I guess.

I did say random unclipping not specifically rope but both are minor issues (though busting a krab due to cross loading is much more likely). You can also use a  screwgate revolver - which i have done if i remember

lots of little nudges /marginal benefits with small costs - but its your call

As JK says Alloy is fine and cheap and know the kit

How much use do you intend to put them through, and whats your climbing style?

If you mostly onsight and don't take too many falls it's not going to be worth the bother... On the other hand if you do a lot of projecting at busy continental crags (where it's easier to leave draws up for days/weeks at a time while you and everyone else works the route) it could extend the life of your set to have a few steel biners for the bottom and crux bolts. A lot of people do take the bottom draw off when leaving a project equipped for that very reason.

Well. I help run a climbing club/group at moment and have lots of new people coming to have a go and some regulars. Most do not have kit, although a couple have bought QD's. Everyone still uses my kit & an another girls. Will mostly be mine now.

Why this has raised my points: A couple of weekends ago we went climbing on the beach and rope got soaked and sandy and wrecked my expensive QD's much to my horror, rubbing through them. First time directly on the beach so I shall learn from my mistakes on that one for future.

I know everyone should have their own kit but some times/most times at moment its not practical.

So climbing styles are all over the place and lots of falls and poor techniques and lots of wear and tear and usage. So sometimes a weekend climbing on all my equipment can be like a month or so usage, as several people are using it over and over again.

I have started getting people to pay a bit towards wear and tear, but Id like to try and set things up so that it doesn't wear with improper use. And also get a little few club kit items. Hence the considered use of steel carabiners. So I guess it's a little on the commercial side regards usage.

So idea was to have some more hardwearing steels biners on heavy usage areas, i.e. the first bolt? I already use steel screw gates for lower off and TR anchors.

Im able to get some good discounts at moment so I don't mind if things cost a little more.

in that case get a load of steel ones cos 

1) wear near a beach

2) they are for  loan, cab be pre-placed

3) they wont nick em as they are so bloody heavy 

In that case yeah I would go with the steel for all the reasons lithos listed above, and steer well clear of the revolver with mixed ability belayers

thanks for your advice everyone

If you're regularly climbing off a beach the main issue with alloy is the salt and the ball-ache scrupulously of washing and drying your kit every visit. Older bent wire krabs don't seem to suffer quite as badly but modern forged krabs really don't like it, they blow apart like a paperback that has been soaked and dried. Steel doesn't like salt either of course but the damage is mainly cosmetic, the speed and extent of the damage salt does to forged alloy as it attacks down the grain boundaries is impressive.

When you say your krabs were wrecked in a session by a sandy rope, how deep were they notched out of curiosity? People have very different ideas about acceptable wear.

jk

I've had some quite impressive wear on alloy crabs on non-coastal sandstone crags.

Top tip for a start would be to get some proper rope bags or groundsheet material for keeping the ropes on, rather than just dumping them in the sand.

Thanks everyone again for your advice. 

They wernt ‘destoryed’ but noticeably warn just after that weekend. The sand had stuck to the soaking  wet rope and just abraded it a fair bit over the weekend. It was a one rope 5 users type thing. It also got a bit hairy when the tide was up to my knees whilst I was still belaying my friend down  but all good fun nevertheless  but I’ve learnt how it can damage kit now  (still new you see)

It was on the Gower and even with care it was still hard to keep everything clean. I did see someone with a big plastic bucket with the rope in so might try that for beach stuff. 

Whenever I climb down at Portland I still try to give everything a rinse metal wise. 

Ive decided to get people to chip in for group kit that we can use and abuse. I’m saving my posh new alphas just for me. Or maybe just for display haha

And it was for the whole weekend down their. All the colour had come off and was probably down by about 1mm ish around the rope area on all of the draws. You could see the shape of the rope where it made a groove at the top part of the draw. Still totally useable. But that’s what got me wondering about the steal stuff. 

Are you sure the rope dip/broadening isn't a design feature, most modern krabs have a broader rope bearing radius forged in to reduce friction which also forms a little hollow in the krab's profile. 1mm of material loss from a session is fairly extreme, I'd expect that over a year or two of rough use. Measure them, you might be surprised, they often look worse worn then they are especially as they first go from shop-new to used.

With the salt water thing as well, if your rope got salty it will until cleaned get damp and transfer that salty damp to your metal work in humid conditions, either wash it thoroughly or store it apart from the metalwork. Wash all your slings and soft-slung kit if it gets salty for the same reason. Much of my climbing kit has been impressively wrecked by a couple of years disuse in my damp house due to historic carelessness with salt contaminated fabric parts stored together with the metalwork.

With respect, are you sure you're well placed to be taking groups climbing on what appears to be a semi-commercial basis with your apparently quite limited experience?

jk

Pictures please, I also suspect the wear you think you can see is for the best part just anodization wear, probably nothing to worry about. The groove in the biner was probably part of the manufacturing process.

Replied to you both via email.