Advantages of regular cams over micros?

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 tehmarks 19 Nov 2019

Odd question: I've been pondering over starting a second set of cams recently, already having a full set of Totems and Dragons gold-silver. In the smaller sizes (say up to largest Alien - about purple C4/Dragon/Totem) I'm struggling to see any advantages of having 'regular' cams over micro cams - micros in the larger sizes come with the advantages of bendy bendy stems and narrow head width, and no serious disadvantages that I can see. Softer lobes and thus more prone to wear, maybe?

I'm sure it's not that simple. What am I missing?

 Alex Riley 19 Nov 2019
In reply to tehmarks:

This is entirely subjective but Ive found in some of the larger sizes (bd purples) I prefer the regular version over the micro version. It feels like with that size the stem (x4) isn’t stiff enough and the lobe end kinda flops around a bit. That’s just my comparison with one brand though.

 Max Hangs 19 Nov 2019
In reply to Alex Riley:

They're also burlier, and may have better holding power if the lobes are wider.

I'm pretty sure the list of advantages ends there though.

 Alex Riley 19 Nov 2019
In reply to Max Hangs:

Cheaper?

 HeMa 19 Nov 2019
In reply to tehmarks:

Pretty much nothing...

Generally below purple C4 (so 0.5) micros are nicer.. but perhaps think about getting them from a different brand (that has slightly different range).

This has been pretty much my way for some time already. A set of cams (C4s) from roughly grey (0.5) to hulk. Another set of cams (dragons) from purple to grey. Then roughly 2 sets of micros from purple down to the smallest (both different brands) and a few odd micros to boost. Naturally don't carry majority of them, but what I bring along depends on numerous things...

 Max Hangs 19 Nov 2019
In reply to Alex Riley:

> Cheaper?

Damn! Set myself up for that one

 C Witter 19 Nov 2019
In reply to tehmarks:

As far as I can see:

'Normal cams'
- Cheaper 
- More robust (micros do wear quicker - and that's even without falling on them!!)
- Wider lobes, which I'd guess means more contact with the rock and force spread over a greater surface area
- Often have a larger range (although, there is some debate about whether dual axles are a good idea on very small cams)
- More often have cam stops/passive strength
- Higher strength ratings

'Micro cams'
- Softer lobes are meant to help with purchase on rock
- Smaller head sizes open up some placements
- Flexibility should mean less likely to walk

BUT
- Micro cams are getting stronger, with thoughtfully designed stems and cams stops, whilst Totem cams have changed the concept of 'normal' cams.
- They're all pretty damn good
- Of the people I know who actually climb hard stuff, one mostly uses 4cus and another still predominantly uses WC technical friends and some sort of brass-lobed quadcam.

Are you simply trying to find an excuse to buy those jazzy new Dragonflys? They are quite jazzy... 
 

 asteclaru 20 Nov 2019
In reply to C Witter:

> - Wider lobes, which I'd guess means more contact with the rock and force spread over a greater surface area

Wrong.

Please see the following:

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/114941648/structural-failure-of...

It was said that in this particular case the cam failed due to the angle it was placed at (that being said, how many times are cam placements text book, perfectly facing the direction of the fall?), but there are a few other examples of failures due to the lobes thinning to acommodate the dual axle design. And the lobes on the Ultralight are the same as on the regular C4, so it's not because it's an 'ultralight' model.

I also remember user beardy mike of this forum saying something similar. You can look up his comments on the matter too.

Post edited at 00:29
3
 beardy mike 20 Nov 2019
In reply to C Witter:

 

> - Of the people I know who actually climb hard stuff, one mostly uses 4cus and another still predominantly uses WC technical friends and some sort of brass-lobed quadcam.

Woah - BRASS LOBED QUADCAMS - super old skool. I know a bunch of people who wouldn't believe me when I told them they existed...

 beardy mike 20 Nov 2019
In reply to asteclaru:

I'm not sure mr Witters statement is "wrong" - a wider cam lobe does mean more surface area and force being spread across the surface of the rock making rock pulverisation less likely...  maybe I'm missing your point though?

It also mean more torsional stiffness (particularly important on dual axle cams) and and more material where you need it, especially on small sizes like that 0.4 you quoted above where the thin web at the end of the axle slot is absolutely critical. In my original analysis for WC I specifically excluded that size for the double axle treatment as I view it as too marginal. The failure above in my view is not due to a "funky" placement, it's just plain "things getting a bit marginal but that's what the market wants".

As for what are the advantages of normal cams versus microcams? Robustness (as long as we are talking single axle in the small sizes) and that's about it, other than cost.

 asteclaru 20 Nov 2019
In reply to beardy mike:

But are the lobes wider on the 'regular' cam fitting in the same size range? When I compared my Dragonflies to my C4s, I didn't see any noticeable difference, so I don't think they are - that's even before you take into account the fact that on the smaller sizes of the 'regular' cam the lobes thin out to acommodate the dual axle design (to the point it could even be a failure point).

So in my view, any additional friction that would be gained from a wider lobe on a regular cam does not outweigh the fact that they need to thin out to accommodate the dual axle.

Post edited at 15:22
2
 beardy mike 20 Nov 2019
In reply to asteclaru:

Sorry I don't understand? Do the cam lobes on a 0.4 BD X4 or a c4 have the same opening range? If that's the question, then yes they are the same. Are the lobes wider on the C4? Yes. Will the wider cam lobe be more resistant to 3/4 closed "crushing" as exhibited in the link? Yes because there is more supporting material. Will the wider lobe prevent rock pulverisation to a higher loading for the same size c4 vs x4? Yes. Will a WC of the same size be stronger yet? Yes because I stuffed in as much material as I could and made the lobe wider than all the other equivalent sizes. Maybe you can clarify your question?

OP tehmarks 20 Nov 2019
In reply to C Witter:

> Are you simply trying to find an excuse to buy those jazzy new Dragonflys? They are quite jazzy... 

Actually leaning towards Aliens - though the Dragonflys have the advantage of matching colour-coding. I'd rather not go back to the time I had a set of 3CUs and 4CUs of two different eras, and a lot of cams the same colour but slightly different sizes...

 asteclaru 20 Nov 2019
In reply to beardy mike:

>Are the lobes wider on the C4? Yes.

Yes - that was my question. Are the lobes on a #0.4 C4 or a #0 Dragon wider than the lobes on a #0.4 X4, #5 Dragonfly or other single axle cams in the ~15-25 mm range? If they are, by how much? And is the 'thin side' of the lobe on a #0.4 C4 or a #0 Dragon still wider than the lobes of a comparable single axle cam?

I've only compared the Dragonflies to the C4 because that's the ones I've got: they didn't seem noticeably narrower to me and I wouldn't have switched if they were, since the lobes 'thinning out' on the small C4s was the main reason to switch for me, but I'm happy to stand corrected if you know exact measurements for the lobes width and they are indeed narrower.

I'm not home, otherwise I would just compare the two and answer my own question.

Post edited at 17:36
 C Witter 20 Nov 2019
In reply to beardy mike:

I think that's what it is! (It always seems a bit rude to stare too long at another man's cams...) Here's a pic from the internet, which I think is of the right cam (hopefully the link works): https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0949/6362/products/IMG_2615_480x480.JPG?v...

 beardy mike 21 Nov 2019
In reply to asteclaru:

The x4 is a funny beast in that the cam lobe and axle change dramatically through the range from a true dual axle to an offset single axle. They produced a very intricate lobe for the small size which had the torsion spring placed internally, whilst on the larger sizes (0.4 and up I think) they were standard but thinner lobes to account for the narrower head but no narrower springs. So long answer short, yes the x4 lobes are sometimes thinner than the c4. As for dragonflies i am out of dates on those... 


New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...