50s or 60s in the Dolomites

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 TradRat 06 Feb 2023

Hello!

I’ve seen the discussions on 60 or 50m double ropes around here, and clearly it’s a Marmite-type of thing. So I’d like to narrow it down by specifically asking whether it would be safe to go with 50s to climb dry rock in the Dolomites, or in the Alps, Lofoten, and other adventure destinations.

(I gathered from discussions that they would be fine for most of UK trad adventure climbing, but then again, I prefer to do as much as I can on a skinny single 70.)

Thanks!

 Moacs 06 Feb 2023
In reply to TradRat:

Yes it's safe.

But you might want to ask what proportion of routes at a particular grade it rules out.  

In general, popular, well established, longer multipitches in low to mid-grades will be fine to both climb and retreat on 50s.

Equally generally, modern, shorter, higher grade routes assume 60s.

Guidebooks generally let you work out the mix for the overall destination.  

 Alex Riley 06 Feb 2023
In reply to Moacs:

If I was going back I'd prefer 60s, we definitely had to run some stuff together on 50s (even more so if you use the rockfax guide 😜)

 beardy mike 06 Feb 2023
In reply to TradRat:

Quite honestly, if you are on many easy trade routes in the range of III, IV or maybe even V, a 60m single will be fine. If you are likely to retreat, 50m skinny doubles would be fine. 

 alex_th 07 Feb 2023
In reply to TradRat:

I stood before exactly the same question recently. Pitch lengths on the classic routes in the Dolomites are always* < 50 m, and the same applies to the classic routes in the northern limestone alps in Austria and southern Germany where I live. Abseils are also < 50 m. I guess the same must apply to all routes anywhere which were first climbed before the advent of 60 m half ropes. However...

... very few 50 m ropes are sold here (Germany) now, i.e. almost all half ropes are sold as 60 m. Also I asked around my climbing partners and all have 60 m. I would guess that the reason for the move away from 50 m to 60 m ropes is modern bolted multi-pitch routes, many of which assume 60 m. Apparently some modern abseil pistes also assume 60s, although I have not run into this myself.

* Weirdly I only reached the first and maybe also the second belay on the Southwest Corner/Dall'Oglio (IV+), a classic grade IV climb from 1954, on rope stretch. Maybe that part of the route was originally done without roping up...

 henwardian 07 Feb 2023
In reply to TradRat:

My 2 cents: Yes, 50s would be fine (though I've not been to Lofoten).

I can't remember ever actually _needing_ to do a 50m or longer pitch or abseil in the alps or dolomites, I have actually found that on the contrary, the pitches are usually 20m to 30m and often the abseils are also 20m to 30m because as soon as you try doing a 50m or 60m abseil, the ropes always get stuck when you pull them (especially if it's storming).

I think Alps, Dolomites and Lofoten are pretty well-trodden destinations with huge numbers of routes and amounts of information about routes that have seen loads of ascents so I wouldn't worry about finding yourself limited.

Even if you do get caught out, in most situations you can make an intermediate belay/rap station. The only route in the UK that I can think of where you would be forced to start simulclimbing would be Raspberry Ripple on the Etive Slabs.

I can't say I agree with a single of any type for UK adventure trad, the gear is almost never in a straight-enough line for my liking - I would always go with halves.

OP TradRat 07 Feb 2023
In reply to Alex Riley:

Hey Alex, I don’t get it: You had 50s, you ran pitches together, and…? Or were pitches longer than 50m, so you had to build belays instead of clipping the bolted ones? In the Dolomites? What about abseils?

Cheers, Pav

OP TradRat 07 Feb 2023
In reply to beardy mike:

Hey Mike! No, not likely to retreat, if so, I’d deal with it as an emergency, leaving gear behind and generally improvising, I guess. I’ve done a bunch of multipitchers in UK and Spain on a single 70 quite happily, but if there is abseil descent, I find having only 38-or-so-meter range a bit limiting. I just don’t know what to expect in the Dolomites, for which I’m really psyched.

 Alex Riley 07 Feb 2023
In reply to TradRat:

We had 50s but found on some routes they weren't long enough, so usually this meant moving together for a bit until a belay or building an intermediate belay. In the dolomites not areas are bolted some rely on peg/thread/gear belays. 50s were fine for abseiling though.

OP TradRat 07 Feb 2023
In reply to henwardian:

Hey Hen, this is all super useful info. I love a long abseil, but obviously will need to evolve my thinking for big mountains.

I personally prefer the ease of single rope; extending draws and running it out does the trick for drag reduction, usually.

But turns out that double 50s can found that are as lightwight as a skinny single 70 (under, or just over 4kg), which would save the hassle of carrying loads of coils when simul-climbing, pulling slack on short pitches (shorter than 50m), plus extend abesil options. Plus the safety - redundancy, improvisation when needed.

Do you usually climb on 50s, then? Any particular make?

OP TradRat 07 Feb 2023
In reply to alex_th:

Hey Alex, thanks! As for the *, I only recently figured that everything up to IV+ needs to be simulled, that’s the only way to climb 500–1000m routes, which is my ultimate goal.

I’m sure 50s will be widely available in the UK )

I guess my question ultimately is whether routes where you’d NEED 60s for safe abseils etc will come with a warning (in comments, on blogs, in guidebooks), or whether most people climb on 60s, so they won’t notice/bother.

OP TradRat 07 Feb 2023
In reply to Alex Riley:

Thanks, Alex, super useful! Would you rather bring 60s next time?

 ian caton 07 Feb 2023
In reply to TradRat:

That's bollocks. 

 ian caton 07 Feb 2023
In reply to TradRat:

60's every time. No risk. 

OP TradRat 07 Feb 2023
In reply to ian caton:

> That's bollocks. 

Hey Ian, is this regarding something specific, or just a general sentiment generously projected in my direction?

Post edited at 16:11
OP TradRat 07 Feb 2023
In reply to TradRat:

> Would you rather bring 60s next time?

Silly me, you've already answered that!

 wbo2 07 Feb 2023
In reply to TradRat: Can't remember on Lofoten but can think of long routes in southern Norway where 50m will give you a headache going down.

 ian caton 07 Feb 2023
In reply to TradRat:

Haha no. It was shock at your statement about simul. climbing in the dollies. 

Unless you are following some megga crack system the gear is often not amazing and well spaced. Think micro threads and dodgy pegs. There is a level of looseness about the place. The easier stuff ducks and dives, crosses big ledges. There are often plenty of other people about and if not the routefinding, unless you have a really good guidebook(not some photograph) can be quite uncertain. So, not that i have ever done it, it doesn't seem to me like good country for simul climbing.

The key to hitting guidebook times or better seems to me to be a question of choosing the right grade and spending plenty of time looking at the route to understand it. Guidebook time is basically 30 mins per 50/60 metre pitch for both of you and includes eating, going wrong etc. So you need to be able to climb most of the route without hesitation only placing gear occasionally to protect the second and stop you dying. I think it says in the alpine club guides the correct grade is your comfortable uk on sight grade minus 2. So for me i was doing a lot of uk e3, comfortable at e1. Minus 2=vs. Maybe a couple of pitches harder but no dawdling. That got me guidebook times.

All this abseiling talk. Lots of dolomite descents are utterly gripping far harder and more dangerous than the climbs. I saw memorials on the descents. Some have nice ab descents but there is usually other stuff involved as well. Very loose protectionless scrambling above enormous drops. 

But you probably know all this stuff. Sorry to be boring. 

That's my pennyworth. Whatever, the dolomites with the right weather and guidebook is climbing nirvana. Enjoy. 

 beardy mike 07 Feb 2023
In reply to TradRat:

It really depends on the route, if I am doing something long but easy, I'll often take a 50m skinny single with a 6mm tagline to retrieve the rope if I really needed to. Often pitch lengths are 30m, in which case I'd take a 0m single, but if I envisage running some pitches together I might take 50m pairs or if I happen to have access to some, some 60m pairs. But its got to be said, doing 50-60m pitches is often very rope draggy and knackering because of it. On long routes it's common to find 35-45m pitches which is enough!

 henwardian 07 Feb 2023
In reply to TradRat:

> Hey Hen, this is all super useful info. I love a long abseil, but obviously will need to evolve my thinking for big mountains.

I found this was particularly true in the Dolomites - the abseil stations are often 20m or so apart and it is very tempting to start skipping stations but often they are so close together specifically because the rope gets stuck when you try to go too far in one ab. If the topo shows 5 abs of 20m, coiling one half and just using the other is not a bad idea, if it's already crapping it down with rain, wind is pulling the ropes halfway across the face and lightning blasts are periodically showering you with rocks then avoiding the risk of a protracted stuck rope saga trump the probability of slightly faster ab imo.

> I personally prefer the ease of single rope; extending draws and running it out does the trick for drag reduction, usually.

Back in the days of yore I watched a friend zig-zag up a route with a single rope and all the gear come out when he fell off and it was pulled sideways and he landed on the ground... He was fine as it was a slab and he bounced well but it made an impression. I guess you get used to what you are used to but I always find that on a tricky lead, two ropes make a world of difference when you are questing around for microwires all over the place, I often find that I'd actually quite like to have 3 ropes!

> Do you usually climb on 50s, then? Any particular make?

No, I climb on 60s, I don't remember the make of my current set but I generally go for relatively thick ones, I think 8.5mm because I just can't get round to trusting skinny 7 or 7.5mm halves, though I have occasionally climbed on them when a partner was using them. I've not climbed big routes in the alps/dolomites for a few years now though.

I think I prefer 60s because sometimes stringing 2 or even 3 pitches together is faster because there are fewer changeovers and I've climbed the odd new route which could have been a 2-pitch route but was possible in one with the longer ropes. And because there are always situations where everything goes to **** and having a bit more rope gives you more options, especially if you wind up having to cut one or more of them!

 beardy mike 07 Feb 2023
In reply to henwardian:

All this is well and good, the problem with it is the OP (assuming his profile is up to dateish) is climbing HVS and 6b. Add a rucksack, a bit of altitude, route finding etc and he's not going to be questing for microwires and doing crazy bold things, but more likely III, IV and V with pitches up corners and on open faces. Doubles definitely have their place but singles do too. I find using a thin single paired with a similar diameter double is a good option because it means when you don't need the complexity of doubles, you just take the single. There's definitely something to be said for having a really simple rope system when you're tired and stressed, and the sun has baked your noodle...

 ian caton 08 Feb 2023
In reply to TradRat:

Longer routes, 300m+, are a skill set of their own. Really worth learning. All about speed. Really satisfying to blast up a long route, get up and down in time and feel you were completely in control.

Really good to go to places where there are big equiped routes. To pick up speed.

Ailefroide. If i remember you can gear up at the tent for 250m routes.

Dent d'orlu. I did a 36 pitch equiped route. Les enfants de la dalle. Equiped means well bolted on the harder 6a pitches, 1 bolt per pitch on the easy pitches. Walk off, an adventure in itself. Was very proud, and still am, to do the first 18 pitches in 7.5 hours. First time i beat guidebook time. 

Try Cavallers where you get mixed or semi equiped routes. They are really good because you don't get lost and you don't have to build belays. Easy ab descents. 

Abing you may have nailed but when you are doing say 10 or 12 back to back you need to have systems. You can waste a lot of time through being inefficient without having a screw up. 

Enjoy. For me those little big walls, done in the day, without glacier complications are the best climbs there are. Often routes with lots of history tackling really inspiring features to spikey tops. 

My climbing is done, i envy you all that adventure and learning to come. It's worth it. 

Oh, and lots of the easier routes are fantastic. 

Post edited at 08:25
OP TradRat 12 Feb 2023
In reply to beardy mike:

Yo, Mike, I've updated my profile. Moving up in the world, step by baby step

I guess that British tradheads will always gasp at the folly of us going it with just one rope. Can't even imagine if they saw me and partner swapping grigris on (bolted) multipitch belays! But to be fair, it was all these discussions and stubborn arguments that made me understand what should go into consideration when devising a strategy for a particular objective.

If you don't mind me asking: Even though I've rejected the tag line system for my purposes for now, if I were to buy a 6mm tagline, what exactly would I be looking for on eshops? I guess semistatic something, dyneema? I'm just not sure what exactly would for the bill.

OP TradRat 12 Feb 2023
In reply to henwardian:

Thanks!

> I found this was particularly true in the Dolomites - the abseil stations...

Such an important point, and one that I'd much rather learn about from a comfortable chair that through a memorable epic 

OP TradRat 12 Feb 2023
In reply to ian caton:

Hey Ian, I'm really glad that you decided to expand on your original "bollocks" reply!

So much of what you wrote I must absolutely agree with! For example to take "plenty of time looking at the route to understand" - I've already learnt the incredible diffidence that this makes, though it doesn't guarantee anything.

But as for the Dollies, I actually didn't know hardly any of the things you mention. In a way it sent me back to the drawing board. In my case, the feeling I might be almost ready for the Dollies comes from the long bolted adventure routes I've done in Spain. I've done some "trad" there too, but turns out Spaniards bolt and peg everything. Great fun anyway.

Cavallers - I've actually done bits and pieces there, and Blues (semiequipped) in particular may have been the most epic climb of my short climbing life so far. An underrated area, I think; will come back to do more.

Dent and Ailefroide are definitely two places I've been looking at with excitement! It may be that you're right and I should push the Dollies back for one more season. I've been reminded by everyone here that route-finding, very serious weather, and insidious descents might be too many extra factors for me at the moment. But come I will!

So sorry to hear your body won't let you climb any more. We just never want to stop, do we. But it sounds you've lived it pretty intensely! Take care!

1
 beardy mike 12 Feb 2023
In reply to TradRat:

I just have 50m of 6mm cord. It's stretchy and you need a smooth ring on the abseil point so works well with bolted stations but less well if the rope is through a sling etc.  By 40m the cord is very stretchy so this really is only for an emergency and if the line is even vaguely indirect, its going to be tough. So as I said, only it it's very unlikely that you will be retreating...

 ian caton 16 Feb 2023
In reply to TradRat:

Not me who gave you the dislike. 

I think with the dollies and you. You are good to go. If the weather is good go, you can always bail to frankenjura or elsewhere. 

I wasted a lot of my life not being in the dollies. The beauty of the place is mind blowing. Never seen it captured on camera. 

Get up high, take a cable car, and do some short stuff "via finlandia" perhaps to get some acclimatisation. 

Get the Mauro Bernardi guidebooks. Super perfect topos. Marks every peg and thread. ISBn: 978-88-6839-225-3 is ine if them in English. Buy it now and get planning. 

Downsides, the sound of motorbikes, italian driving. 


New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...