Via Ferrata, short roping a child

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 michel4388 19 Aug 2022

Advice from e.g. Petzl is to have a piece of protection between two people short roping on a Via Ferrata.

That is fine if the VF is equipped with "pigs-tails" but quite a faff if this needs to be done with quick draws.

What would be the danger of using a short (say 2m) rope between an adult and a small child on horizontal parts of the VF? So without a piece of protection between the two.

Combined weight would be well below the maximum weight allowed for the VF lanyard.

 Neil Williams 19 Aug 2022
In reply to michel4388:

Don't think I'd short-rope a kid on a VF, I'd clip a ladder rung or staple on a difficult section and put them on belay using an Italian hitch on the krab/quickdraw.

On a horizontal section you've got no serious fall potential so I don't really see much sense in anything, you can just go over to them and help them back on.

Post edited at 20:56
OP michel4388 19 Aug 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

Thanks. The idea would be to have the rope just in case the child takes both crabs off the cable and falls...

Agree with belaying on difficult sections.

Post edited at 21:02
 Neil Williams 19 Aug 2022
In reply to michel4388:

> Thanks. The idea would be to have the rope just in case the child takes both crabs off the cable and falls...

Ah, I see.  I'm not sure I'd take a kid on a VF who isn't able to consistently demonstrate the "move one krab at a time" thing, same as Go Ape where you can technically become entirely unattached.

If it's a case of the classic VF kit "it's so you can be helicoptered off rather than being in a pile at the bottom" approach, i.e. you're happy for it to be awkward/a bit painful for you as long as your kid is safe, then I guess your proposal would be fine.  I think Petzl might more be talking about a situation where you're using short roping as a substitute for a belay on a section where you being pulled off by their fall could cause you both to be seriously hurt.

Does anyone, I wonder, do VF kits where you can't physically open both krabs at once to reduce the risk of that to acceptable levels?  I half recall some of the Go Ape type places having that.  The most likely time for it to happen is unclipping both at once, it'd be fairly hard to sequentially unclip each in turn without realising what you were doing, or at least you noticing them being about to take the second one off and shouting to them to put it back on.

Post edited at 21:12
OP michel4388 19 Aug 2022
In reply to michel4388:

My daughter did a very easy and low to the ground VF this afternoon (Gorges de la Durance near Briancon) and was absolutely fine with clipping, but I feel it's a bit like crossing the road without looking: at some point they're fine pretty much all the time, but still mess up every now and then...

Was expecting most of the VFs to have the pigs tails but that doesn't seem to be the case.

The Go-Ape she's done had a save system, but not with crabs (basically, the cable is connected to the trees with a narrow piece of steel. You move a c shaped piece of metal allong the cable where the opening is wider than the connection but narrower than the cable, and there is a trolley to make it a bit easier).

 Sam W 20 Aug 2022
In reply to michel4388:

We did a via ferrata (Aletsch) last week with 3 kids who were under the 40kg minimum weight for the lanyard shock absorption to work.  We specifically chose that destination as it has a lot of traversing and we felt happy that if they fell on a traverse section, impact loads would be very low.

We had three adults with the group (plus a fourth child over 40kg).  One of the adults carried a glacier (20m 8mm) rope in alpine coils at all times in case it was needed at short notice, a second had a rope in their rucksack.  There were two ladder section where we belayed the kids from above as there was potential for a long vertical fall.  Other than that, we didn't use the ropes.

The three smaller children were 5, 7 and 9 years old.  There was a repeated problem with the youngest going to unclip both lanyards at the same time to move past an anchor.  We had, at all times, an adult stood right next to her watching what was going on and physically intervening if necessary.  She got much better as we travelled round the route but definitely not to the point where she could be left on her own.

The 7 and 9 year olds were allowed full control of their own clips, to the extent that they were often out of sight (albeit only around 10-20m ahead of the adults).  There was obviously potential for this to go wrong, but as parents we assessed our kids ability and experience, and decided that they could be trusted to use the equipment properly.

I did consider having a permanently clipped short rope to the younger party members, but on balance, decided that the risk of kids getting legs caught, twisted round their body etc. increased the overall risk of an accident.  Particularly on a vertical section, an adult landing on a child after being pulled off could be a major problem.

I was very aware throughout that via ferrata can be very safe, but the risks of something going seriously wrong are much higher with kids.  Having said that, all the kids had an amazing time, it's a memory that will last a long time.

1
 Hovercraft 20 Aug 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

Funnily enough, I did a high ropes session yesterday with my kids exactly like that (foret sensations at Puy St Vincent in the Ecrins). Seemed to work very well for go ape style high ropes where the cable gives you spring and the fall distances aren’t large. However it relies on a rigid cable connecting the 2 clips to provide the coordination of always having one clip clipped, so I don’t see how it could be made to work for a VF where energy absorption is needed

 Hovercraft 20 Aug 2022
In reply to michel4388:

To answer the original question, I’ve used a 2m short rope on traverses where the implications of a fall were serious with my younger (8) as I simply don’t trust him to never double unclip. And I have seen it done a lot by other groups in France (fwiw). 
But I have secured my self with an adjustable rope lanyard under light tension whilst doing so, so that I don’t get pulled off if child falls.

In reply to michel4388:

Hi michel4388,

I hope you enjoyed the Durance via ferrata, my Girlfriend works there. 

For the use of rope with kids, its there to cover two things. First as you say to stop the risk of a kid taking off both Krabs, it does happen. Top tip so to tell them they can only use one hand to do the clips. the other reason is to be able to belay them if you think there is a high risk of falling (steeper sections) as they don't have the body weight to trigger the lanyard. 

Like all Via ferrata protection is not 100% perfect, unlike something like top-roping in climbing.

What you are suggesting for traverses is fine. To be honest on easy traverse sections if your close you can check that they are doing the clips right, which should eliminate that risk. As for the not triggering the lanyard well, it should be a short fall (maybe not very nice) but unless you can get a point above them you can't really do much about it. Plus if you're close you can talk them through any trick bits. 

You should never rely on young kids to do the safe thing every time as they can forget or get exited  and make mistakes, but there are different ways to manage them depending on their needs and support they need.

All good ropes course now have fixed systems that can't be totally released, this can be done by magnets or by specially shaped lanyards. As of yet there isn't anything like this for Via ferrata, one of the reasons for this is the cable can be different sizes depending where you do it. this may change as more and more families are looking to do via ferrata, so they may start to design stuff with them in mind. That said even if they had a lanyard rated for kids, I wouldn't want them taking up to 5m fall down a route before it triggered.

I am not sure how old your kid is but the Green route at the durance is good if you skip the first start and go up the ladder. Or the route at Puy st Vincent 1400, its in the shade and never gains much hight, there are harder sections but you can miss them out.

I have a free app guide to the Via ferrata run the area.

Just search Via Ferrata ecrins briancon where ever you get your apps and it should come up.

Cheers Rob

Post edited at 15:42
 Neil Williams 20 Aug 2022
In reply to michel4388:

That system is better, yes, I have nearly become disconnected on a classic Go Ape due to my own utter stupidity, and that system totally prevents it.

The risk at the classic ones (which are just VF type sets without a screamer) is why they use a 1:2 minimum ratio, the idea is that an adult is between the two kids they are supervising and can check every clip.

OP michel4388 20 Aug 2022
In reply to michel4388:

All, thanks very much! I was wondering if I was missing some non-obvious danger of the "very short roping", so good to hear people experiences.

And Rob also thanks very much for the great app! It's been the main source of info on the VFs.

Note, the "Combe" VF at Puy at Vincent was the first one I wanted to do, but with daughter (8) and son (12) both new to VF, and the start not that easy (being wet after rain didn't help) I actually backed off it. Then did it with son, and the start turns out to be by far the hardest bit if you miss out the "sportive" sections.

The Gorges de la Durance yellow was perfect for an introduction. We were late in the day and no time for the green, but plan to go back. Also thinking of the Schappe and the yellow Bez ones.

In reply to michel4388:

The one in Schappe park is good, its paid entry and there is also a small acrobranch course in the park. I like the Le Bez route, it is more vertical than the other easy ones and probably not far off being a green. but really nice. There is some easy climbing pin the cliffs below it, but it can get busy with guided groups. 

Do you have your own kit or are you hiring? the short route at l'Horloge is ok its very short so I wouldn't hire kit, but if you have your own it can be good for practice trying different rope stuff out.

Where are you based and how long you around for?

OP michel4388 22 Aug 2022
In reply to ecrinscollective:

Thanks for the further info! We've got our own kit and are in Vallouise until the end of the week. 

 Stairclimber 23 Aug 2022
In reply to michel4388:

There are always discussions about weight minimums and difficulty of making the clips but please take note of Rob's earlier point, that youngsters can be unreliable and do the most bizarre things . I heard today of a horrified parent seeing his child proceed with both carabiners unclipped, being reassured by the youngster, " I'm fine............I'm wearing my harness!"

Also, those expecting pigs tails to aid roped ascents , won't find them on that many VFs.


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