UKH

Hi, In based in the UK

Hoping to do Mont Blanc with a guide in 2023.

I was wondering if anyone could advise where would be good to practice this winter.

Is there anywhere with similar terrain and steepness as the scrambling section between the Tete Rouse and Gouter Hut?

Is there somewhere to get used to the level of exposure you get on the ridge to the summit?
I do still get a bit nervous with exposure.

Many thanks.

I don't think you'll find Mt Blanc particularly difficult, technically.  Long hill days are probably the best training.

Not sure what answers you can reasonably expect, tbh. Once you're past the Grand couloir my recollection was that the scramble to the Gouter was absorbingly interesting ...  but we were experienced walkers/scramblers. Ditto the Bosses Ridge; I don't  remember the exposure but we just had our heads down and got on with it.

Personally I think that maybe you should just walk, scramble and climb more and do MB when you feel ready, rather than aim to get the tick in a predetermined time frame; I'm probably old fashioned like that.

As GrahamD says there’s not a lot of technical challenge on the main tourist routes on MB. It’s big so it hurts - you need to be well acclimatised - and you need to be not spooked by a bit of exposure.

Long scrambly ridges would be good practice. You don’t say where you’re based but just doing long days (summer and winter) in Snowdonia, Glencoe & Lochaber, doing the easy classics - Aonach Eagach should become second nature; CMD Arête; Tower Ridge; etc. Be well used to using crampons.

But if you’re going with a guide he/she will shepherd you over any complexities and you won’t really be making any decisions about route, foot placement, etc. Still a great experience, but not the same as under your own steam.

The main thing on a guided Gouter route will be endurance fitness. If you can walk e.g.  the path from Llanberris to Snowdon summit and back (with minimal pack) *twice* in one day and be able to go out walking as normal the next day, you have the fitness. That will take time to get to for the average person, so gradually build up your long day endurance.

Beyond that... practicing ice axe arrest and walking in crampons (without cramponning your inside of ankles) will be next priority

Thank you

my main concern at this stage is the exposure, I’m quite new to the mountaineering game (2/3 years in). And the summit ridge on MB looks pretty exposed.

I’ve done Striding Edge 3 times. I almost froze in fear the first time - but the second and third times were much better, although I still had trouble standing upright in places.

I’ve also done Tryfan north ridge twice this year… Again, the first time I was questioning what the hell I was doing there at one point. Second time I only had one or 2 moments where I felt uncomfortable.l and now I think I’d be 100% confident to do it again. 

I feel that once I get to know the routes, I become less scared about “what might come next” and wondering if I’ll be able to get back down.

I recently went up Cadair Berwyn, absolutely nothing technical , but and there was a steady path upwards. To my right, approx 5 meters, there was a near vertical drop down 300m which I became quite scared. I endured it for about 200/300 meters (?) but wasn’t keen on going back down the same way.

I guess my main question or concern is the best ways to get used to the level of exposure required for MB.  

Thanks again!

Possible worth including a trip to the aiguille du midi in your itinerary (depending on conditions).

If you can get down to the glacier then you’ll be fine for Mont Blanc exposure wise.

As others have said fitness is the main criteria for the normal route. If you make fast enough progress on the second morning you won’t notice the exposure as it’s still pretty dark by the time you reach the submit.

When you get up there it’s not as bad as it might looks from some of the more dramatic photos. It’s a wide well trodden path to the submit and back.

Be as hill fit as possible, ascent wise, 20-30km days with 3000+m ascent. Don't carry crazy heavy bags you'll just wreck yourself. 

Learn to go up and down low angled snow slopes in crampons in your sleep, without tripping over. 

The CMD Arête in winter looks ideal. 

Thanks! 

I plan to go to Chamonix in January to have a bit of a look around - it might be possible to get the cable car there and have a go. I’ve got B2 crampons and boots and ice axe so I’ll be somewhat prepared to do it. 

You don’t need to be that fit…

You can either suffer before hand or suffer the day after you get down. I did it after next to no exercise for 12 months before hand and I was fine (I struggled to work the pedals of the car to drive back to the UK mind).

My ill advised itinerary was:

Day 1: drive to Cham

Day 2: Mount Buet (harder than it looks)

Day 3: Muck about on the glacier below Mont Blanc du Tacul

Day 4: rest day (lots of beer)

Day 5: Climb to Gouter hut (fail to sleep)

Day 6: Summit and back (followed by lots of beer)

Day 7: Drive home (struggling to move legs)

To the OP just give it a go. If you’ve got a guide you’ll be fine.

No, while decent hill fitness is certainly important, the most important thing will be good acclimatisation. How much you will need to do varies from person to person, but aim to build up to going to at least 4000m a couple of times and sleep pretty high to give yourself a good chance of success (and enjoyment).

Well at least you admit it was ill advised. I think most people would be asking for trouble with so little acclimatisation.

Well, probably not actually die, but a good chance of a grim night at The Gouter (if you make it that far) and then down next morning. And a very fat fee to the guide for your failure.

In January it will be heaving with skiers, and you'll need skis to get very far. You're better just concentrating on getting as hill fit as you possibly can, get comfortable with crampons and let your guide worry about everything else.

Each to their own. I'd rather have a bit in reserve(ideally a lot) than get up alpine slopes by the skin of my teeth, I'd also want to be doing and enjoying other hills on the same trip before and after mb. Mb has some nice views, but the so called tourist route is pretty dull, they could do other hills on the days after mb if their legs were still functioning. 

The op will enjoy it more if they aren't blowing out their ar$e, half doubled over their axe and feeling like %hit. I guess it depends if their sole goal is mb, they are just boxing ticking and aren't going to the alps for the mountaineering. 

I'm guessing you're trolling now. 

Where do you live? I can arrange for a Frenchman to throw rocks and swear at you. It would only be one Frenchman but it would give you the general idea.  

My advice would be to get some good hill fitness in, the fitter you are the more you will enjoy it, Some people have mentioned above about acclimatization, this is important and if you have a good guide they will make sure you are well acclimatized, don't go for it if you are not as it will be horrid.. trust me. 

grib goch could be good for exposure if you haven't done it, further north  Aonach Eagach, there are lots of options..

Get confident using crampons and axe, again if you have a good guide maybe get them to touch on this with you along with some crevasse rescue training.

I think the most dangerous part of the route is the crossing of the Grand couloir

Good luck with your goals and I hope you get it done, consider the Trios Mont route as well as that's much more interesting and you will get a much better experience of the high alps.

Given everything you've said about a fear of exposure, I think you'd benefit from doing more of the sort of things you've been doing. Go to Scotland in the spring and do some ridge lines like the Liathach traverse or Aonach Eagach. Aim to get in a set number of big hill day that you think is reasonable, e.g. 40 between now and 2023. You might benefit from a day session on personal movement with Chris Ensoll (Lakes based), as he does quite a lot on good movement, which is key to coping better with steep ground/exposure. You might also benefit from a day in Scotland over the winter with a guide, focused on basic winter skills - e.g. good crampon technique. I'm sure you could have a personalised day where you learnt a lot, doing some skills stuff and then taking on an easy scrambly winter route like Fiacaill Ridge. I'm not saying these things are exactly like MB, but they would increase your comfort zone and improve your personal movement a lot. Would probably cost around £150/day, I'd guess.

Just don't underestimate it, after all it is a big old beast and quite a slog. Your chances of success will be a lot higher if you can spare 2 extra days to get as much time above 3500m even if you just take a book and read in the cafe at the Aguille du Midi cable car, get the last lift. As others say it is not technical and good standard of fitness will see you right. Good luck with the weather.

Tell him not to forget to stand on the rope too…

I think it should be pointed out that the first recorded instance of the noble alpine sport of chucking rocks down on the opposition is in fact our own Edward Whymper on the summit of the Matterhorn. Seeing his rival for the first ascent, Jean-Anthoine Carrel, a couple of hundred metres below on the Italian side, he promptly launched a few rocks down to let him know that when it comes to conquering, British is best. JAC gave up and went home. Karma of course was waiting for Whymper on the descent.

I think calling it "box ticking" is a bit presumptuous of my intentions...

I'd definitely say it's a goal that I'm determined to do, and why shouldn't I?

I guess there is a reason why every person who ever went up MB wanted to do it, and 
it involved some sort of "box ticking", weather it's a goal, or to take yourself out of your comfort zone, push limits of what you thought you could achieve...

I've got Zugspitze booked in for July next year, via the Rheintall route. 

Would consider doing the Hollental after that for a more technical approach, and would like
to explore some more lower Alpine peaks beforehand. 

In all fairness, I was planning on doing all this for the past 2 years, but had to reschedule
all my flights due to COVID.

I'll have a look at some of the suggested places mentioned here - thanks!

I'd suggest you join a club in the uk, learn the ropes in both summer and winter, go to the alps and work your way though the routes, height and grade wise as you gain experience. Mont blanc will cross your path naturally at some point and you'll likely cruise it, climbing with friends and without the need for a guide. It will be a vastly more satisfying experience. As you sit briefly at the summit enjoying the moment, relishing in what you have achieved, you'll look at the many unfit and inexperienced folk being dragged up by their guides behind you, most not enjoying the event at all and can thank me for this advice. 

That’s not quite how Whymper describes it in his book, and he writes about Carrel “Still, I would that the leader of that party could have stood with us at that moment, for our victorious shouts  conveyed to him the disappointment of the ambition of a lifetime.  He was THE man, of all those who attempted the ascent of the Matterhorn who most deserved to be the first upon its summit.”  Incidentally Carrel died on the Matterhorn not Whymper.

I have to confess to taking some liberties with his account! I do realise Whymper lived a long - though probably not always happy - life after the tragedy of the descent from the Matterhorn. I remember going to look at a fragment of the severed rope in the English church (?) in Zermatt. This was shortly after I'd been buttonholed and lectured by a guide (with drooping client in tow) up in the mountains who warned me, "The Zermatt graveyard is full of soloists!" 

On the subject of graveyards, Whymper's grave in Cham is most impressive.

This. You have a full winter season, a full summer season and then another full winter season to get ready to tackle Mont Blanc. 

As a person living in a flat country (I live in Holland) my head spins at the thought of the amount of ridge lines both in summer and winter one can do in the UK in those three seasons. 

Chances are that after doing three seasons full of ridges I-IV and Scottish winter I-III you're telling yourself 'right, MB! But not via the Gouter Route!'

... ... ...

Mont Blanc ordinary route/routes is a snow-plod and the summit is snow, this means it can change shape and height a bit from year to year and ridges/approach included. The bit that can be a concern are sections below the summit, the Bosses ridge and thereabouts not so much the summit. This can get busy, unpleasantly busy. I haven't been there for a few years but I hear recently it has been busier. The sharper bit is relatively short (most years), the rest is a snow plod path.

Your nerves will be helped by being on a rope to a guide. Ignoring for now the genuine safety benefit, there will likely be a big psychological benefit, so maybe you will be more chilled that you think. Also a walking axe carried in cane position will be very reassuring. Don't build this up into some big deal and put worry in your head. It's not that bad and likely you'll be pretty knackered and not so bothered about that section

If you can grit your teeth and manage crib goch, North ridge tryfan then I'd expect you to manage the bosses ridge. Just get time on the hills on some steep paths, it's Gouter route, not Cerro Torre.

Crib Goch seems more extreme to me than the MB ridge looks....

I prefer the idea of a flat, steady snow covered ridge, rather than jagged rocks and finding foot placements.

Just trying to pull together and add some extra thoughts based on what others have suggested:

1) Consider joining a local group / club or go with like minded friends. Ideally find a partner with more experience than you. 

2) Regular long hill walking days with a day pack, possibly some extra weight to help your legs get stronger. 

3) Summer scrambles, mainly Grade 1 but if you get the chance and feel comfortable try some Grade 2. Initially aim for ones with less exposure and gradually build up your exposure tolerance / confidence. Lots of guidebooks available for Wales / Scotland / Lakes. Many scrambles can be linked together for a more full on day. If you feel comfortable going up a Grade 1 scramble consider coming down the same way ( excellent practice for MB descent ).

4) If you get the opportunity lots of hill walking in snow, with and without crampons as appropriate. Practice ice axe skills, excellent BMC videos will help. Remember to practice somewhere safe. If you feel comfortable / safe you could try some less committing grade 1 scrambles in the snow.

5) Your guide will deal with the technical aspects such as roping up but any reading or practice you can do beforehand may be helpful. Your guide will also advise on acclimatisation. However, if possible go to the Alps a week or so before your ascent and do some non serious non glaciated acclimatisation beforehand. Mont Buet can be a good option. Around Zermatt there are some accessible high points without glaciers you can use a mixture of train / cable car and then walking to reach and spend some time in which can help. 

Good luck

You might be in for a shock if you think the Bosses ridge is a flat, steady snow covered ridge.  When I did it the flat bit to walk on was about 50cm wide and it's very steep in places. Stepping to one side to let a team of Eastern European military folk pass on their way up was one of the most slowly thought out, precision movements and most terrifying things I've ever done.

E

I'd prefer the idea of a nice heated Telepherique to the summit of Mont Blanc and be presented a beer by a beer stein girl, all for free (OK it's France not Bavaria, but makes little difference to the odds)  --  it aint happening

1) It's not that bad. Stop making a drama in your head about this or you'll build it into some impossible section

2) There is a shortish section of ridge that will be steeper snow whether or not you'd prefer it to be  flat/rounded section (like most of the rest of it). You need to be able (even if not enjoying) to walk past it. I'd suggest something non snowy and easily accessible that gives vaguely equivalent feeling of exposure could be walking Crib Goch

If you're intimidated by Crib Goch then you're not in the right place to consider virtually anything in the Alps, let alone Mt Blanc. 

This. 
 

my alpine experience is very limited, and all guided, but came on a background of a decent amount of scrambling; and the difference in the sustained intensity of exposure came as a shock. The actual technical difficulties of the routes we did (weissmies, l’eveque, pigne d’arolla) was minimal- but the sustained concentration to move efficiently and safety in places where a slip would be a really bad idea for hours at a time was draining. Even stepping out the door of the Vignettes hut took some gritting of teeth and a couple of deep breaths… 😁
 

Perhaps something very exposed and easy, like the Devil’s ridge in the Mamores would give a taste of it, balancing along a path with a lot of space either side… and some scrambling in the Cuillin, to get some sense of the sort of exposure to expect. 
 

The exposure, is, in due course, what makes it fun. So go and follow what others have said, and get yourself gradually more and more exposed. Then you can  enjoy other mountains apart from MB.

Crib Goch is fine. I took my daughter along it in the past, with her friend, when they were 11-12 years old, and they loved it. Admittedly it was in summer, but that is possibly where and when you should start. 

Work your way through various scrambles, that are encountered in longer mountain days in both the Lakes and Wales, but especially in Scotland.  Go and have a look at Dan Bailey's Scottish ridge book, and enjoy doing some of those routes.