UKH

Hello everyone, 

I am looking at doing Cho Oyu (possibly Broad Peak) in late 2021 or spring 2022. 

To this day, the highest I have climbed is on Peak Lenin (slept at camp 3), and summiting Khan Tengri via the Northern Normal Route (unsupported). 

Does anyone have any pearls of wisdom about the progression from 7000 to 8000m without O2 (and with base camp support only).

Any advice on Cho Oyu vs. Broad Peak? Or any specific advice for each one. 

Thank you!

Best,

James

You've probably got this book already...but if not - seek out 'Training for the New Alpinism' by Steve House and Scott Johnson.

Thank you; I do indeed have this!

Chapter 12 - looks like it might be helpful..?

Best of luck for your trip!

Broad Peak - whilst low in the 8000-ers has a big summit day, with a long ridge to the true summit so don't underestimate it. And being where it is weather is a big factor in success. The season is also summer (late Jun-mid Aug), than late 2021 or spring.

I've never climbed in Pakistan so couldn't comment on BP but I was originally scheduled to climb Cho Oyu in 2012. That trip was cancelled due to the Chinese Mountaineering Association hiking up fees and being generally difficult. I eventually got there in 2016 - even then we went through itinerary and date changes at the last minute. It felt like the CMA could chop and change access/fees/anything at the drop of a hat. Be aware of this. 

We approached the mountain via Tibet (Lhasa/Shigatse/Xegar). If you're carrying sat phone equipment, be careful. Back in 2016 a permit was needed for such equipment. Assume it's the same now. Most hid theirs and we didn't have any issues, but something to be aware of. Staying healthy on the journey across Tibet is tricky. I was the only one to arrive at BC without diarrhoea. The accommodation in Xegar is something else! 

Base camp is damn high (5,700m) and living there for a month really takes its toll. I lost a lot of weight despite eating like a pig.  

The hill is a painful slog. Nothing technical. The icefall at about 6,800m between C1 and C2 is the only mildly interesting section. It was a scree slog to C1 when I was there, then snow/glacier from C1 above. Can't comment on anything 7,000m above - our team was woefully unacclimatised on our summit push and the 5 that made it to 7,000m all turned back at this point (including me). I'd previously been to 7,250 so not getting higher on Cho was a bit of a downer. 

Fascinating trip though. Driving across Tibet really does feel like you're far, far away from home.  

Best of luck with the trip. Unsupported and no O2 is an honourable way to climb it! 

Thank you for this.

Thank you for this comprehensive insight! 

I tried Cho Oyu (Normal Route from Tibet) without O2 and without support above BC in the post-monsoon season of 2000. I didn't summit but what I'd say is...

If coming from Nepal via the Friendship Highway (as I did) watch out for the day's drive to Nyalam (5000m+), just over the border in Tibet.  This is a big ascent in a just few hours of driving and some of our team got AMS immediately and had to go back down.  Plan on at least 2 days and nights rest at Nyalam, don't allow yourself to be rushed by your Operator. You will feel like shit and be prepared to drive down again if necessary - It's early days in the expedition so this may feel very frustrating, but if you scew up here and rush onto the Tibetan Plateau with AMS you could lose much more time.

Driving in jeeps across the Tibetan Plateau really is amazing - the world is now in 'widescreen format'!  

The official BC is a dry grassy plain which is the 'end of the road' for jeeps, where the chinese military LOs stop never to be seen again until you finish your expedition.  You then walk with Yaks to ABC (which is what climbers may regard as BC).  

ABC to C1 is, as Axel says above, a non-technical, moraine covered and dry glacier, followed by a rubble strewn slog - a bit shitty TBH.  C1 is rocky, and on a ridge line, so there isn't a huge number of good sites.  I'd be tempted to try and get up there as soon as you can in order to get your tent pitched somewhere decent, before other teams bagsy the good sites.  Following that drive to Nyalam, the daily ascent will have been much more mellow (with further days' rest on the plateau, and the approach walk) and we didn't have any issues acclimitising at this middle stage of the expedition.  For this reason I'd suggest maybe pushing it a bit here if you feel OK, and get your tents up to C1.  You can always dump your bags and turn around to ABC as its not such a huge day... so think about pushing it a bit.  

C1 to C2 contains the 'crux' serac wall after a short ridge (maybe a short section of Scottish III when I was there).  Let the commercial expeds fix this with ropes, or be prepared to get into an arguement if you go up first (which we did, and there were 'words'... ooops!).  There are further fixed ropes across a big slope above this pitch which are easy (Scottish I?) but I was glad the ropes were there: its still quite hot midday at this altitude and the snow can be suncrusted and 'booming' as you walk (eeek!). The final bit to C2 at c.7000m is an absolute killer first time up - this is where you'll get to know what 'high altitude' feels like, rather than just the breathlessness and headaches of 5000m, or 6000m even. Carrying a big pack to C2 is a humbling experience if you're used to feeling fit and strong on the hills.  If unsupported, I'd be tempted to plan on not returning to C1 same day if you've load carried to C2 for the first time - you might be too exhausted - this will mean initially taking more time at C1, maybe takes several shorter hikes above Camp 1 and returning for a few days before going for the carry to C2.  C2 is a massive snow field, and there is no rush to get good spots for a tent.  So, take your time at this point.

My ascent ended at C2, after 3 days being pinned down by high winds.  The jet stream closed down the mountain for winter after that, and there was only one summit day that year, sadly when I was sat down at ABC.  

What I do know, is that the summit day kinda starts from C2.  There is a C3, but it's more of a rest point with a tent and a stove - not a fully equiped camp.  The successful team that year (using O2) went up from C2 to C3 in the evening, rested for a few hours, then set off that night to push for the summit, having only spent a few hours at C3. Be aware that the true summit of Cho Oyu cannot be seen from the route below - the summit is apparently set back (c. 1km?) across a plateau after the 'climbing' and you must walk across this and get back and then re-locate your descent to C3, at least.  

The successful 'climbers' that year were clients of a commercial expedition.  They used O2, but more than that, they had 3x high altitude sherpas out in front, working in rotation to break trail and blast a path for them through the snow, across the summit plateau and back. To be safe I think you may need to have that kind of strength within your team at over 8000m.  One member of our team was lucky enough to be high on the mountain on that summit day - he 'drafted' the sherpas and walked in the trail they broke for everyone else and got to the summit. So, was that unsupported? (Ha ha, I know what I think! Its maybe not just about bottles of O2 up there!).  

Anyway, whatever you try, good luck and enjoy it!
  

Great Breakdown. Thank you!

Nyalam is only 3800m, but yes, it's still a jump straight from KTM. We stopped there en route to Kula Kangri in 2005 and I had heard/read it was higher, so took Diamox, only to get out of the jeep and be like "WTF?". We still spent a day and extra night there though, as that's around the normal altitude people start to feel sick. You can walk across the hills for a nice view toward Shishapangma.

To the OP, as innes and others have indicated, going without O2 puts you on a different schedule than the bulk of climbers on 8000ers now. They spend less time high on the mountain, often summitting the day after first touching the highest camp. This is unrealistic for most people, if not impossible, and dangerous.

Realistically, the only way around this nowadays, given you probably have to share a permit in some way with a commercial group on O2, is to pre-acclimatise by trekking in the Khumbu or Annapurna where you can spend a week or more eating and drinking well at a lodge above 4000m, going on day hikes, acclimating without wearing yourself out. You can go higher earlier, spend a bit more time mid-mountain to acclimatise, come down to BC rest, then be high on the mountain at the same time as the Sherpa-led groups using O2.

Current commercial itineraries won't allow a no-O2 climber enough time to summit safely, as many have found out in recent years.

We've not changed the duration of our expedition, though I can remember the last person we had do it without 02 was in 2004. Interestingly, he summited on 25 September - exactly 4 weeks after leaving the UK (on a 6-week itinerary).

Well put Damo.  This is my feeling also, which I hinted at but maybe didn't say as explicilty: The approach of effectively starting from C2 and just 'pausing' C3 on the way to the summit represents a huge leap in difficulty compared to just establishing C2, and just getting 'OK' with being up that high. So, leapfrogging from there to the summit and back is, shall we say, a near 'superhuman' effort.  O2 anyone?

The thought of being caught on that summit plateau with my legs feeling like they did on the last section carrying to C2 for the first time is a very very scary prospect, which kept me awake at night in my tent.   I was utterly destroyed on my first trip up.  (Note:  I significanlty outpaced and went past several groups of guided clients  on the way to C2 who were much slower than me.  But it's at C2 that the bottles are waiting for them....).   

Also, I may have mis-googled Nyalam's altitude.  I trust you're correct.  But, yes, its still way too much ascent a day, especially when you've got the shits from eating out in Thamel!.    

Best

I.

A friendly warning and reminder to anyone who is interested: my friend Pete Thexton died on Broad Peak after descending from near the summit. He very probably died because of going too high too fast - at least that was the conclusion of Don Whillans, who was there that day

I would not recommend it - 02 is essential to life, please don't try and climb anything without it.

Thanks for this, and I agree. 

I tend to err on the side of caution with acclimatising. For example, with Khan Tengri, I gave myself two extra weeks acclimatising before the expedition. I am fortunate enough to have ample time when I choose (freelance teacher). 

In addition, I am aware of my skillset (or lack of it), and realise that going for the summit on my first 8000m peak without oxygen is ambitious. I see it as a process, and so look forward to what I will learn (I am only 29 at present). If I was to come away with my life, and a night at the top camp, I would be happy. Anything beyond this is a bonus. I have also gathered it is ideal to sleep at the top camp, then come all the way back down before any summit attempt without O2, so I wouldn't compromise on this.  

At present, I am erring towards Broad Peak due to costing (it is around $6000). 

Thanks for all the input from everyone.